Ketogenic diets

[Alchemica]

Seen a bit about using a ketogenic diet (high fat, adequate protein, low carbs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet ) for mood stabilising effects. Wondering if anyone here has used them for such (there's a bit on the net but some of the attitudes seem a bit unbalanced and I can't find any good answers about long term risks). Not so worried about weight loss, more just getting into ketosis for the mood stabilisation (at the moment I'm pretty much a mostly complex carb and fruit, moderate protein, low fat diet).

Anyway, would be nice to get off valproate and the mood stabilisers - anyone (guess "The Bear" would...) recommend it? Sure it's easier/cheaper to keep popping pills but is a ketogenic diet potenitially a better option or is it better to just try high-dose Omega-3's first? The idea of smelling a bit fruity to prevent me going a bit fruity does sound good though.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Alchemica

[TheFriendlyPlanter]

Keto diet is great and I'll never go back to any other way. I began using it for seizures (docs orders), but I stay on it because it gives energy like you wouldn't believe, all day long, it's amazing. I'd also say that my mood etc has improved significantly, simply because I feel healthy, rather than painful, lethargic and shitty all day like I used to be.

I've been on it properly for about a year and I'll be doing it for the rest of my life now. I tried Atkins before that which was crap IMO. Atkins focuses on eating heaps of meat which wasn't very natural or balanced I found. I think Atkins just wanted to patent his own version and sell heaps of books and products etc.

Just eat heaps of greens approx 50%, plenty of fats 20%, Dairy 20% like cheese, sour cream, yogurt , cream. 2-5 serves of meat or eggs a week is really all you'd ever need. Anything high in fat and low in carbs is generally fine. But you gotta research it and try different things and tailor it for yourself. It's really hard to get factual information, in fact, there's so much Mis-information that it's creepy.

Get used to cooking often, but cook double serves so you have plenty of left-overs (easy snacks later on). It's fun inventing your own recipes too. My latest winner is Grilled Zucchini and mushrooms with melted cheese, served with sour cream and avocado-YUM!!! Oh, and stir-fried greens with chilies and soy-sauce WOW!

If you need a quick snack try things like cold quiche, Camembert cheese, avocado, cold chicken wings, a coffee with cream instead of milk etc etc.

It's a very personalized diet, you gotta work out what works for you and go with that. It can take a couple years to really perfect it as a diet to stay on for the rest of your life. Thank goodness there are plenty of low-carb beers! About once a week I just end up at a party or BBQ and pretty much get forced to eat carbs like bread or pizza etc but it seems to be fine to have a day off every once in a while. I should mention that I've also lost a lot of weight and look fit and healthy as well as feeling so. But weight loss is more of an unexpected bonus, I just do it for health really.

Ok well there's my tips, hope it helps someone out there...

Edited October 23, 2009 by San Petrovinski

[Evil Genius]

Hi Alchemica, i live like that since about 2 years now. My diet consists of as few carbohydrates as possible and a lot of proteins and fats. And i feel great since i eat like that. All of my immune generated diseases vanished and the rheuma was reduced to a minimum. If you ask me, this is a great way to stay healthy. I dont care what the so called "nutrient experts" tell about carbohydrates. Those guys suffer from severe nutrient disorders and are full of shit. Todays people eat way too much carbohydrates and thats the reason why they get cancer and all that shit. Fat transports vitamins and thats why it´s important to have a regular intake of healthy fats. The healthiest people on earth are the Inuit who eat masses of seal meat and fats but almost no carbs. The Reason im so convinced of this diet is that i tried it myself and that my health changed from "almost-dead-wacko" to "yippie kay yay mofo"! Look into the Atkins diet which is actually the same diet. Atkins was hated pretty much because of his unorthodox diet. Nevertheless, most of his patients grew very old and if he wouldnt have died from breaking his neck on an icy road, he´d probably still jump around. bye Eg

Edited October 23, 2009 by Evil Genius

[C_T]

I have used it heaps of times for bodybuilding.

I'd do more research before diving in. Lyle McDonald's UDL 2.0 is awesome. I have some PDF's

on keto and a few alternatives, like CKD.

Want some links?

[ajna]

i have moved more towards this kind of diet in the last couple of years. it's hard to say exactly how much is the diet alone and not other factors (changed other habits, also now eat almost all organic/local food now too for eg), but my energy, health, mentally and physically has improved greatly.

i have heard about a cancer treatment program which uses this kind of diet also. it can be a bit hard to find unbiased, non-extremist nutrition info sometimes so i figured trying it out on myself was the best way to go. i've prob posted it a few times but this is a link i'd recommend - http://www.westonaprice.org/splash_2.htm - it's not the "keto diet" but it's based on traditional diets that were high in protein and fats

understandably some people would be resistant to increase their fat intake, the media makes fats seem like the devil. i figured i could afford to put on a few kilos in the name of science, have liberally used quality fats in my cooking, incl saturated fats like ghee and coconut oil, and would definitely have less body fat and more muscle than a couple years ago, this goes for the gf also.

so these kind of diets do seem on the right track to me. but keto diet aside i also believe refined carbs are terrible for mood stability and energy, and if you were to avoid them alone you'd notice a difference. blood sugar spikes and drops, depletion of b vits and minerals, affects on serotonin levels, not good stuff

[Alchemica]

Thanks for the input everyone, cheers.

C_T, links would be great, thanks for the offer. Will run it past my doctor anyway, surpising how they will continuously dish out scripts over three years and never ask about your diet. Guess that's all up to the consumer to persue these days.

Definitely something that would take some time to get used to, never been a great meat eater but thanks for that link and suggestion of coconut oil ajna, looks like it could be a useful addition to bring the fats up a bit.

Will look more into it all.

[ajna]

fwiw, i eat meat only occasionally so yeah my diet isn't really like the one they are most fond of either, despite agreeing with a lot of the info i still haven't become a big meat eater. there is a section for vegos on the site, they do say it's possible. i decided to increase my intake of butter/ghee, raw milk, cheese, eggs, otherwise it's mostly a wholefoods/vego diet, but i still feel i've benefited by reducing carbs, ensuring a sufficient amount of protein every day and utilising fats much more often than i used to

coconut oil is da bomb!

[momomoto]

I thought this was interesting:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stori...008/2381784.htm

not so much about ketosis diet, rather Ketones as a direct food

[C_T]

give me another day or two to find all my diet pdf's

[random]

Just bumping this thread and wondering if the original post-er found any long term benefit with this diet?

I have started eating like this and literally lost 3kgs in the first 3 weeks just by giving up bread. Not sure if it's had an effect mood-wise but it's only been a few weeks and I haven't been particularly as strict as I should be.

Since minimising carbohydrates I have found my tolerance to sugar has spiralled and I attempted to eat a chocolate biscuit a few days ago and almost threw up as it tasted so disgustingly sweet and made me feel ill.

So far I have had a small amount of energy increase and no longer fall asleep during the day or after eating.. which I presume was due to eating carbohydrate-packed meals in the past. (Pasta, potatoes, grains etc)

Only problem is, I eat hardly any meat and i'm not sure if eating meat twice a week is enough to be useful with this way of eating? Anyone have any ideas about this? (The only red meat I eat is kangaroo meat.)

I've also minimised my intake of gluten and i'm fairly sure that's helping to make me feel a bit better overall as I was starting to feel sick after eating despite eating minimally processed food as it was, eg I make most things from scratch etc, I don't eat packeted or junk food. Although I did used to eat alot of pasta and rice with vegetables etc..

Anyway, hopefully someone else can give some more info about this way of eating and whether or not its been successful for them in any way?

Also is there a minimum amount of meals that should be eaten, eg I generally only eat twice a day and possibly I should be eating more but I really can't be bothered eating half the time, meh.

[Justler]

For your body to be in a state of ketosis, you really need to remove as many sugars/carbs as possible, whilst increasing fat consumption. Fat becomes your main energy source on keto diets, so its your main macro (65%), followed by protein (30%), than carbs/sugar (5%). The percentage is that of your daily calorific intake value. Therefore to be in ketosis 65% of your daily calories should be fat. There is a great thread on bodybuilding.com dedicated to keto diets. I'll post a link later for you. Be sure to keep well hydrated whilst in ketosis.

The initial weight loss is water weight, as glucogocen stores H2O, and by decreasing glucogocen stores, your decreasing your bodies ability to retain H2O. Which is why hydration is important on keto diets.

Should probably get back to work now , I'll post the link later

[random]

Thanks for that and the percentages of each, very helpful.

I suppose the dehydration effect explains my recent nagging headaches and dry mouth, lol

cheers look forward to the link when you get the chance

[Kee]

surpising how they will continuously dish out scripts over three years and never ask about your diet. Guess that's all up to the consumer to persue these days.

 

hahaha yeah

[Justler]

Hey Random,

I tried a ketosis diet for a while in order to trim up and assist in achieving my fitness goals. It helped me to drop some kilos, however my workouts suffered as a result. I just didn't have the energy I use to have in the gym, and I was losing muscle mass as a result. As such I didn't stay on a ketosis diet for very long. I'm a vegetarian, so I also found it quite challenging to abide by the diet and remain in ketosis without the aid of supplements.

One thing I liked about the diet was what a friend and I called The Ketosis Focus. Essentially, once your brain starts running off fat as an energy source you seem to become a lot more alert and switched on. It's almost like you've taken some sort of stimulant.

Headaches are a common side effect which occur when your brain is switching fuel sources. As such, you don't want to be yo yoing in and out of ketosis.

Anywhere this link will explain things quite a lot better and more in depth than I will, so check it out when you get the chance.

It's quite informative and is based on scientific literature:

http://josepharcita.blogspot.com.au/2011/03/guide-to-ketosis.html

The following link is a sub forum dedicated to ketosis on a body building website.

Any questions/answers you can't find in the first link should be dealt with somewhere on the forum.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61

You can also pick up keto sticks at pharmacies, which you pee on and they tell you if there are traces of ketones in your urine/blood stream. This gives you a rough measurement of how high the concentration is; if there are no traces of ketones your not in ketosis and you need to decrease you carbohydrate intake. If its too high your body is quite dehydrated (from my understanding), and you need to up your water intake. Essentially you want to achieve middle ground. I think they cost around $10 for 50 keto sticks.

All the best with the diet, hope it works out for you.

[random]

I'll just quote what I just said out loud to myself after reading your reply. *you are fucking awesome*

Thanks heaps for taking the time to explain that to me and giving some links which I will now go read and attempt to digest, lol, much appreciated!

[Justler]

Haha, you're welcome.

[Sallubrious]

Here's one of those epic revivals of an old thread, I didn't want to start a new thread because this thread contains some really good info, so ......

I've been on a keto diet for 4 weeks and I'm starting to see the effects. I've dropped over 5 kgs in weight and I'm starting to see definition in my abs, before the diet I had 1 ab. I believe around 3 kgs would have been water so I'd estimate that I've lost about 1/2 a kilo each week in bodyfat. I was an athletic-muscular build before the diet so I didn't mind if I lost a bit muscle while on keto, but I really don't think I've lost any muscle just water and fat.

I calculated my calorific deficit to equate to 1/2 a kilo weight loss per work and it seems to be working out just as I'd planned. I plan to start eating more (about equal calories in to calories expended) in the next few weeks as I get closer to the BMI I want to be, so I don't slow my metabolism down.

I started this diet because I was starting to show some signs of metabolic changes and wanted to see if it was insulin related. People were saying that I had put on weight (which I had) and I found I was was having what seemed to be an excessive insulin reaction after meals or anything rich in carbs. I was getting drowsy sometimes to the point where I'd fall asleep after eating anything rich in carbs or drinking coffee sweetened with sugar.

I was working out 5 or 6 times a week & it wasn't burning fat like it did when I was younger. I was really overtraining and not seeing any results, in fact I'm sure the overtraining was raising cortisol levels and contributing to the weight gain. Since I started the keto diet I've only been training 3 days a week and losing fat with much less effort.

It was a rough ride in the first week to ten days, I had a headache & felt like crap in general. Once I got past that I've had heaps of energy and don't have any of the insulin reactions/over reactions after eating. It really seems to work well for me. Initially I felt like I was losing a bit of strength in my workouts but that's evened out and now I'm back at the stage I was before I began the diet, possibly a bit stronger in some areas.

One side effect I noticed involved a few moles I had that I was getting concerned about, after the end of third week they dried up and fell off.

I can't say that I will stay on this diet forever and I intend to start adding small amounts of carbs again until I find the level that works for me some time early next year. If I ever notice any metabolic issues I'll get straight back onto the keto/lipolysis diet again.

Thanks for the links Justler (they had everything needed in one convenient location) and thanks for the other info provided by the others in this thread.

[C_T]

the best diet advice is to stop eating sugar and processed food.

http://thedolcedietlivinglean.com/

you don't need to suffer for a week going into keto, you don't have to starve yourself to lose weight.

you don't have to have bad breath from ketones, have sweat that smells like amonia...

Edited November 27, 2013 by C_T

[Darklight]

Was on a formal one for weight loss. It didn't make me lose any weight for some reason. I tried it for a fortnight and it nearly sent me insane, it had a real impact on my memory and mood.

Possibly because it was a weight loss diet it didn't have sufficient calories to run my brain properly, I was a mess

Ended up going to see a nutritionist, who was excellent, told me I didn't eat enough protein. Which prolly amounts to the same thing as ketogenic, certainly after I did start eating enough protein there was only enough room on the place for a truckload of veggies and bread and grains aren't as attractive now. Result: a little weightloss, great mood stabilisation, better health

So maybe get a nutritionist to advise and walk you through the early stages? The one I saw was doing prac at a local university so was cheap

[C_T]

well protein isn't the sole thing with a ketogenic diet.

you can't just up the protein and turn keto, infact its the increase if fats and under 50g carbs per day (some say under 20g).

if you just lower carbs, and keeping fat low and protein high you wont be very healthy, and have troubles hitting and maintaining keto, it requires high fat, med protein and low carbs. I personally think its great for a detox to kick of a more healthy eating lifestyle

i mean thats why "diets" work, your making a conscious decision to make better food choices. its really that simple.

the problem with nutritionists is the course work, its all government regulated and the food industry giants dictate it.

[Sallubrious]

the best diet advice is to stop eating sugar and processed food.

http://thedolcedietlivinglean.com/

you don't need to suffer for a week going into keto, you don't have to starve yourself to lose weight.

you don't have to have bad breath from ketones, have sweat that smells like amonia...

I couldn't really find much info on that site C_T (from a quick look) I saw a lot of testimonials, ads and links to stuff he's trying sell though. Are details of his diet somewhere there or do you have to buy a book ?

I saw one article there about someone who'd lost 11 pounds in one week, that seems to go against everything I've read about nutrition and weight loss. I know a few nutritionists and they've all told me if you lose more than about a pound a week it will slow down your metabolism and you are very likely to gain wieght faster than ever if you start eating anything over the calories required to maintain a normal weight.

I was already on a low carb diet, because I'm gluten intolerant so I can't really eat grains and I almost never eat anything processed. The only time I'd have refined carbs was when I had a cup of coffee with about 1/4 of a spoon of molasses. I was eating 200g carbs at the most each day and counting calories but still gaining weight. That's why I tried the keto.

I don't really feel like I've been starving myself, at first I struggled to consume that much fat on top of the protein (which is roughly the same as I was eating before) and I'm eating large servings of vegetables topped with cream or butter at every meal.

The keto seems to be working, but I don't really see it as a long term thing, I think it's more of a survival mechanism than anything. The fact that bodybuilders need to modify it with carbohydrate refeeds (CKD) and glucose boosts before exercise (TKD) seems to me like an admission that it is not ideal for an active person.

[Sallubrious]

Edit: FKN double post

Edited November 27, 2013 by Sally

[C_T]

https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/the-mike-dolce-show/id591709101

start listening to these, it will make perfect sense.

yes people have to make a living, he sells his books under 10$... also available on torrents, if you like, then pay.

[C_T]

more than a kg a week is the ballpark, for consistent healthy weight loss. forget the website ads.

in the first week you lose the most, because of water weight.

you know keto is a book too, hundreds of them, so is paleo, so many people cashing in on paleo.

this guy's trains top elite athletes, he walks the walk. anyway, im not here to convince anyone, i'm here to make you think of alternatives you may not be aware of.

since my other posts in this thread are from 2009, this is my current and ongoing personal nutritional research. which has been going over 10yrs now, and dramatically changed my life. in the last 13 weeks ive lost 10kg without any effort at all. at 5'9 went from 90kg to 80kg and probably 4-6 weeks off stepping on a bodybuilding stage.

Edited November 27, 2013 by C_T

[Anodyne]

Yeah, went on one of these a while back as an experiment to see if it'd help some autoimmune/gut problems. My guts improved alot and I found I had heaps more energy than usual.

It takes a bit of planning though - I wouldn't recommend making a snap decision to switch to this kind of diet. Read up about it so you know what to expect, and have a bunch of meals planned out before you begin. It also helps to have a basic understanding of what's in your food: fat/carb/protein content and nutrients - this is much easier to control if you just cook everything from scratch, as much processed food has "hidden" ingredients (like shitloads of sugar). I'm vego too, so this was quite challenging, but definitely doable. People even manage to do a vegan version! Happy to share some recipe ideas if anyone's having trouble with this.

You'll probably feel like crap for the first few days or so while your body adjusts to the change, but once the carb-withdrawals pass, you should feel much better. One thing to watch out for is not letting your blood-sugar drop too much during the day, because you won't be able to fix this quickly with a sugar-hit and you'll end up feeling like shite. You need to plan your meals a bit so that this doesn't happen - space them well and carry around a bag of nuts or some boiled eggs or something to snack on between meals. This is even more important if you're planning to exercise alot as well - serious exercise nuts will allow a somewhat higher carb-intake, but just time it so that most of their daily carbs are eaten just before their workout. After a while, you won't need the sticks, or to smell your breath or whatever, you'll just be able to feel when your body is in ketosis.