Why you should NOT smoke Salvia divinorum!

[Smiling Cloud]

From memory i thought that the shaman chewed the leaves up and swallowed them, 70 fresh leaves being a dose. Maybe there is a substance that has been missed and is orally active but present only in minute amounts.

Quidding is only a recent thing isn't it? Brought about about by high prices of salvia (originally anyway). Quidding and smoking are two completely experiences imo. Smoking really put me off this plant whereas quidding allowed me a bit more time to understand and explore the space it put me in.

I have often thought that coleus blumeii maybe active too when combined with salvia and consumned in the traditional way, ie chewing and swallowing a large amount of leaves. Much like consuming a large amount of psychotria won't do much, if anything, but combine it with caapi and you have ayahuasca! Due to the legal status of salvia i have not been able to experiment but it would be interesting to see the results of someone trying this.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Smiling Cloud

[planthelper]

snorting salvia powder is another good methode which worked for me...

[incognito]

t i have had large tabs of that pure sal a extract we used when it was legal, under my toungue with nil effects. what gives??

[Torsten]

stomach seems to kill it, although the traditional froth [made by metate] seems to work when swallowed. I've swallowed big balls of black tar extract [30x or higher] with no effect, but a small amount thoroughly wiped all over your cheek and gums works quite well. alcoholic or acetone solutions are much better though.

incog - it's all about surface area. one lump of tar under the tongue does not work. it needs to be soft and spread everywhere. solutions are easier, but hurt more.

[incognito]

that wasnt really tar, was extracted crystals infused into like rice paper..remember?

[Teotzlcoatl]

the leaves hold the salvinorin a on the outsides of the leaves, much akin to how MJ holds its thc. Watering the salvia leaves before consumption will effectively wash alot of the salvinorin a from the leaf.

Really??? Can anybody else confirm this?

Kadakuda, the difference between smoked salvia and quid salvia is about as distinct as smoked dmt and oral [MAO inhibited] dmt

That is an excellent way to put it!

I highly recommend the salvia extract Siebert sells on his website [if he still does].

He does. Sagewisdom.com!

[mauve]

i agree, the quid experience is very different from the smoking one...but it is very difficult for me to put it in words. More gentle and peaceful, more visually comparable to indole substances.

[Garbage]

I see something is missing,namely the shrooms.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Quidding is only a recent thing isn't it?

No, that is how the acients did it.

It takes more Salvia divinorum to make a quid than it does to smoke it and get effects.

I have often thought that coleus blumeii maybe active too

I highly doubt it.

It certainly wasn't traditionally used that way.

Coleus is native to Asia and was never used by the ancients of Mexico, in fact it probably arrived in Mexico sometime AFTER the 1700s (probably as late as the 1950s).

[Garbage]

New ways include Nitrous oxide,Hashish and Salvia.

Would you administer that to a patient?

Edited October 5, 2009 by Garbage

[Teotzlcoatl]

I don't understand the question....

[Zaka]

Coleus is native to Asia and was never used by the ancients of Mexico, in fact it probably arrived in Mexico sometime AFTER the 1700s (probably as late as the 1950s).

Irie Teotz,

Sent you a couple of (tiny) green Coleus cuttings, hope they make it!

Gives you an opportunity to check it out for your self!

Respect

Z

[Teotzlcoatl]

Gee thanks Zaka, you didn't even tell me

Your plants are on the way!

snorting salvia powder is another good methode which worked for me...

Wait what?!

Edited October 5, 2009 by Teotzlcoatl

[Garbage]

I wonder if it could work as smoke blown up the backway.

Any reports?

[FancyPants]

^^^^ If someone can send me some while I'm out of Aus and visiting somewhere else - ie where it's legal - I'll write the full report. I swear! I'm not blowing smoke up....!

[Teotzlcoatl]

I'd be glad to do it.

PM me.

[Smiling Cloud]

I know that the actives are destroyed in the stomach but for some reason i remember reading somewhere that the first users would eat 70 or so fresh leaves. Researchers then worked out that swallowing this amount of leaves was not necessary because the actives were being absorbed sublingually. Instead, a fewer amount of leaves could be chewed and held in the mouth for the same effect. I don;t know where i read this though. Has anyone else heard of this?

[Teotzlcoatl]

The ancient shamans of Mexico defiantly chewed them as a quid as well as made Salvia divinorum tea, I'm pretty sure they also ate them and used Salvia divinorum as an enema! Seems like they used Salvia divinorum every which way except for smoking it!

[Zaka]

New ways include Nitrous oxide,Hashish and Salvia.

Would you administer that to a patient?

Irie Garb,

Are you suggesting this as an enema?

Very interesting???

Respect

Z

[The Jamanoid]

He does. Sagewisdom.com!

I went there and all I got was links to other sites?

[t st tantra]

i must admit even though i dont agree with the traditional line that i have been saying something similar for years.

have heard of euphoria and laughing on smoked salvia but for me it was always serious and edgy........there would be a static buzz to everything that had a sort of dry tension to it.......seemed to suggest it didnt like being smoked or at least it liked being wet not dry?

quidding still has some weirdness to it....but not this edgy static.

however smoking salvia combined with consumption of other entheogens provides a fairly normal experience without the edgyness......so i am seeking a different explanation........

t s t .

wish it was still legally available to me so i could experiment some more!

dont know if it should be available to anyone anytime though........

[Garbage]

No one sells Brugmansia online for smoking,it's sold as a beautiful plant.

The same cannot be said for little Salvia Divinorum,it is percieved as a tool of the corrupters of youth.

Truth is the governments get their drug info from drug users as there are not so many traditional Mexican rural healers living outside of Mexico.

And even if there were it's unlikely they would ever have a license to ply their trade.

The sad truth is that as an endangered cultivar it will eventually die out due to the drug abusers and their own lawmakers folly.

It's not so much a problem that species become extinct,the problem is how to get government cash for 'saving' a species combined with the natural reluctance to furnish minority interests with a tax windfall.

With the NAU in effect the erradication of use in Mexico will continue apace,once that's gone there will be no new centers of use and those wayward teens will simply have to buy traditional life destroying drugs from the international cartels.

Lots of money there in supply and control.

It survived prehistory,the mesoamerican empires and the Catholic Emancipation of the same,it will not survive one world government.

Indeed,when that empire crumbles and falls by the wayside no one will ever know of Salvia Divinorum,though maybe obscure references to smoke blown up somewhere will persist.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Garbage

[mutant]

Let me have my take... boy sometimes I am amazed by the sheer amount of naivety and easiness and volunteerism of community people believing anything they're told! Especially in this site! It's not random I use the word volunteerism: most people don't like sally d effect, but they would sure like to like it, to believe 'the right way' is more like the classic psychs, and the supposed 'real deal', as it does seem to appeal to some people. I never tried the quid, I don't doubt its different, I doubt the 'don't smoke it' , 'spirits don't like smoke' , 'it's more psychedelic as a quid' bits... etc...

Why would anyone take salvia to have a classic psych effect , REALLY, anyway ?

Why not just take a classic psych instead of a disso??

well my own POINTS:

1. Don't take anything Teotz says for granted, actually it's useful to regard anything he says at least unsure, doubtful and even problematic.

2. Coleus blumei still has ethnobotanical importance, whatever people might say. The reference coleus 'debunkers' use is crap and they usually haven't experimented with the right clone or any clone for that matter. 'Plants of the gods' is still the source for Coleus data. It reports a traditional name and that it was used like salvia [obviously meaning quid]. There are references of 70 -140 fresh leaves eaten and being similar to psiloshrooms, but I don't really know about that.

3. Quidding is the traditional method of ingestion yeah, and its not the same as eating...

4. 'Smoking' doesn't say shit, as it can produce a really wide range of different effects, depending on the combination with other substances, dose [amount of salA smoked per inhalation] and setting. Is it leaf, is it extract and if yes how concentrated? is it large leaves [more potent] or is it smaller leaves, where they washed [yeah salA is said to be at the surface of the leaf, the underside I think] so they are less potent?

5. Sally D is indeed not a 'proper' [classic] psychedelic in the way indole alkaloids are [the classic psychs] - but it can be very psychedelic, even in low doses. Sally D is classed as a dissociative and it's effects confirm the categorization as such. In lower doses the dissociation effects are absent or not directly evident, so it can well be very mild , friendly and even euphoric. I haven't tried quid, but I have had intense euphoria on low doses of smoked leaf. I am quite sure that smoke, intense or not, it lasts little, while quid is supposed to last quite long. So, yeah, longer effects are more 'appropriate' for shamanistic approaches and goals. Still I don't see so much of a dismissal of freebase dmt smoking, which is not traditional at all, maybe because it's generally more pleasant and seemingly compatible with psychedelic theism & shamanobession ?

Torsten, you always say Teotz's 'problem' is all about his tone, implying there's nothing wrong with the context. In this very example, you say he goes about stuff the wrong way, but he has got a point. Which is???

I too am saying smoking extracts is not the most 'appropriate' way for anything except getting hit hard by sally, as salviaheads almost always admit and eventually come to realise... but it is the ethno e-shops that are benefited from such a thing, selling and promoting silly extracts like x20 and more. Sally D is an extremely cheap leaf, and it works fine dry. The fact that if the intake method is different so that the trip goes on for a couple of hours, it's pretty undestandable the effects and perception of them is going to be different. I never read that quid is the same experience as smoke, but this doesn't really say anything... certainly doesn't say we shouldn't smoke it because many people cant handle the edge, are terrified or put off or whatever!

Heck, people always say 'stay away from tropane plants', but I think they're pretty interesting and can be useful!

But fuck, people want it all! They wanna get real psychedelia [like mushrooms] on a dissociative, they want a full 'beneficial' headspace but don't want salvia terror/edge. OK. Then don't smoke it, go on and quid as much as you want, or smoke leaf little by little. But don't tell us supersticious bullshit like 'the spirit doesn't like to be burnt etc.' You know why? because the spirit loves to be burnt and it loves me and I am the spirit and fuck this stupid arrogant religious shit!!

Substances have not preferences, we have!

I think garbage's comment about it being merely a difference of slow vs fast shows his lack of experience with this plant.

or that it's you that cannot or don't want to see that people perceive stuff in a different way. This slow VS fast thing can mean lots more than what is evident. Plus you don't think aya's dmt is different from freebase one, huh? Fast and intense VS slow and milder is all it propably is.

Why mexicans didn't smoke it? maybe it's the same with modern-day psychonauts: they might not be able to handle or work with sally d effect smoked. Maybe they were too much into the classic psychs visions etc they could handle neither the death/non-existence sally space, nor the philosophical questions that rise from it. Maybe they didn't like the idea of death. Sally can kill religion and can show that love doesn't need to be a command of some god, but a deeper need... Sally D can show there is no god and that inexistence is not big deal! Maybe they wanted to keep their illusions produced by classic psychedelics religion, that's why they only used sally [as quid] when mushrooms were not available.

food for thought, for those who can appreciate it

lets see how ready you are

Edited October 6, 2009 by mutant

[Teotzlcoatl]

Don't take anything Teotz says for granted, actually it's useful to regard anything he says at least unsure, doubtful and even problematic.

Don't be an asshole mutant.

The sad truth is that as an endangered cultivar it will eventually die out due to the drug abusers and their own lawmakers folly.

I highly doubt that. I personally have shipped out over 50 Salvia divinorum cutting sduring the course of this past growing season, many internationally (including Israel and Russia)!

So this plant won't go extinct if I have anything to do with it!

Edited November 19, 2009 by Teotzlcoatl

[Torsten]

In this very example, you say he goes about stuff the wrong way, but he has got a point. Which is???

The point is that salvia was never smoked and that we should at least KNOW this, even if we chose to ignore it.

If the kava manufacturers had more respect for traditional knowledge kava would not have caused deatsh and would not be restricted in many countries.

I am not saying the shaman are correct. I am saying it is arrogant to be ignorant of their teachings.

The fact that if the intake method is different so that the trip goes on for a couple of hours, it's pretty undestandable the effects and perception of them is going to be different.

The effects are vastly different. in fact, with most people if you gave them one or the other in a blind trial they would never associate the two.

I don't think it is just a matter of perception, but I'll get into that bit further down.

Heck, people always say 'stay away from tropane plants', but I think they're pretty interesting and can be useful!

We are not talking about the warnings born from hysterical ignorance as is the case with tropane plants, but rather we are talking about a variety of cultures that decided [quite independently] that smoking salvia is a bad thing.

But don't tell us supersticious bullshit like 'the spirit doesn't like to be burnt etc.' You know why? because the spirit loves to be burnt and it loves me and I am the spirit and fuck this stupid arrogant religious shit!!

I agree. But the shaman probably found the best way to maintain the taboo [which may be rooted in a variety of reasons], was to simply make it a spiritual taboo. It causes less arguments. This doesn't mean it applies to us.

or that it's you that cannot or don't want to see that people perceive stuff in a different way. This slow VS fast thing can mean lots more than what is evident. Plus you don't think aya's dmt is different from freebase one, huh? Fast and intense VS slow and milder is all it propably is.

I am surprised anyone with experience of both dmt and ayahuasca could think that the difference is as simple as the intensity. One of the most distinct difference is the perception of time on these two substances. You can go extremely high on ayahuasca by taking the dmt at the end of the inhbition period, knowing full well that it will only last 30 minutes. On the other hand you can also smoke a few cones in a row and get just as high for 30 minutes. The two 30 minutes will feel completely different. The type of visuals, depth of subconscious access, physical control, field of vision, time perception and pretty much every other descriptor of the experience will be very far apart.

Why mexicans didn't smoke it? maybe it's the same with modern-day psychonauts: they might not be able to handle or work with sally d effect smoked.

This would explain a dislike for it, but not a widespread taboo.

Maybe they were too much into the classic psychs visions etc they could handle neither the death/non-existence sally space, nor the philosophical questions that rise from it.

I think this is quite likely.

Maybe they wanted to keep their illusions produced by classic psychedelics religion, that's why they only used sally [as quid] when mushrooms were not available.

And so is this.

Societies are quite arbitrary and finite about which drugs are OK and which aren, and this is usually how these drugs mesh with the spiritual system or living conditions. In the west caffeine and alcohol are good, but pot is bad. In the east pot and opium are good, but alcohol is bad. etc.

Chances are that the mexicans only wanted shroom like trips and hence quid salvia fitted into their concept. However, in that case I would expect some tribes or areas to diverge from this concensus, which doesn't appear to have happened. And that's what bothers me.

food for thought, for those who can appreciate it

Don't hurt yourself on the way down....