Are the majority of Shaman's homosexual?

[hutch]

Quote!

The shaman is sometimes a socially inept or poorly integrated citizen, often homosexual, crippled, or epileptic, and the exalted station of shaman allows him to fit into the social picture and survive. This would seem to be an excellent method of providing for and accommodating those with disabilities and/or unique lifestyles.

http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/shaman.html

Mmmm, Could there be some truth to this?

I wonder if a majority of todays western type Shaman would fit within this mold?

Ethno heads do tend to be a bit different! I am a bit different, not gay but (not that there is anything wrong with that ).

I have friends that think the lifestyle to be very foolish and can't understand what I see in it and no amount of explaining can make them change there minds. Each to there own I suppose

Cheers

Hutch

[paradox]

no shit, people who are inclined towards psychedelic mind states & shamanic type perspectives don't generally "fit in" to a materialist culture. whats new?

IMO going so far as to say that most people like this are gay is ridiculous.

perhaps people who are gay are generally well experience with being socially outcast, which in some cases may lead them to explore alternative realities or whatever & perhaps being stigmatized from a young age the way gay people so often are in our culture, forces you to think more deeply about yourself & the world around you in unique ways & therefore may lead some to what you may call 'shamanism' but i'm personally not gay though so i don't really know. i reckon the things i mentioned above could be brought about by many different factors though, not just being gay.

also, perhaps some people who are into 'shamanism' have experiences which may open their minds somewhat & free them from strict culturally conditioned ideas about sexuality. i mean, say you are a straight person. if you're open minded enough then it may not matter to you whether someone is male or female, if they have a personality which is highly compatible with yours you may be inclined to fall in love with that person & be open minded enough to have sex with them simply because you love who they are....just a thought

Edited October 17, 2009 by xodarap

[t st tantra]

'the shaman is sometimes'.........'sometimes'.....this doesnt really mean anything....the politician is sometimes....the priest is sometimes a pedophile!

wont use the link on principle......its not from the skeptic the amazing randi is it?

t s t .

[mu!]

often homosexual

thats being a bit more assertive than 'sometimes'

[ethnodude]

I'd say generally people who are attracted to shamanistic ways are not as likely to be as caught up in the illusion of sexual barriers. A well tuned shaman is balanced in both the masculine and feminine parts of the brain. So given this they might appear to be "gay" in a stereotypical type of way, given the western perception that feminine males are gay. I think the point is that all sexually identity is an illusion influenced heavily by ego. So given the ego suppression of shamanism, it would perhaps be more likely for a shaman to express homosexual tendencies as the ego does not drive this trait. Unlike say the likelihood of a practicing homosexual practicing catholic. That's not to suggest that they are not gay in closet and just live in fear of being their true self.

[mu!]

t st tantra, seeing as you let a little bit of ignorance get in your way, here's the content of the link just for you seems to be pretty spot-on! (not 100% really on the geographic distribution though)

Originally referring to a Siberian or generally north or central Asian witch doctor, sorcerer, or medicine man, the term is now also used for anyone working for his social group to cast fortunes, go into trance to divine the future, diagnose illness, or perform other magical services. The trance can be brought about by fasting or by hallucinogenic substances. The purpose of the trance is to contact spiritual forces or entities, often in the form of animals.

The shaman is essentially a “wise man,” one sought out for advice and healing. The position is often hereditary, though by experiencing certain “ecstatic” experiences, a tribal member can be elected to the post. When a youth becomes alienated from his family and tribe, wanders away and seeks solitude for long periods, or exhibits severe antisocial behavior, he may be expected to become a shaman.

There are emotional and sociological problems common to all cultures, and it appears that some individuals subject to these differences find the position of shaman to be a release from the restrictions imposed upon other tribe members. The shaman is sometimes a socially inept or poorly integrated citizen, often homosexual, crippled, or epileptic, and the exalted station of shaman allows him to fit into the social picture and survive. This would seem to be an excellent method of providing for and accommodating those with disabilities and/or unique lifestyles.

The shaman is an integral and honored member of most American Indian tribes, and as such serves an important function.

[hutch]

'the shaman is sometimes'.........'sometimes'.....this doesnt really mean anything....the politician is sometimes....the priest is sometimes a pedophile!

wont use the link on principle......its not from the skeptic the amazing randi is it?

t s t .

Pretty good for a guy who didn't follow the link..The amazing randi it is ....

[t st tantra]

thats being a bit more assertive than 'sometimes'

i am guilty of bias!point taken....

but it actually says 'often homosexual ,crippled OR epileptic'.

and these are 'often hereditary' homosexuals,cripples OR epileptics.....well maybe epileptics

t s t .

[ballzac]

i am guilty of bias!point taken....

but it actually says 'often homosexual ,crippled OR epileptic'.

and these are 'often hereditary' homosexuals,cripples OR epileptics.....well maybe epileptics

t s t .

Isn't it claiming that the position is often hereditary?

Edited August 27, 2009 by ballzac

[folias]

I haven't met any shamans who are homosexuals! In most sane societies, the shaman is very well respected!

(ours is generally not a sane society... we tend to put our shamans in the mental hospital and chemically lobotomise them)

Julian.

[B. Loco]

I'd say generally people who are attracted to shamanistic ways are not as likely to be as caught up in the illusion of sexual barriers. A well tuned shaman is balanced in both the masculine and feminine parts of the brain. So given this they might appear to be "gay" in a stereotypical type of way, given the western perception that feminine males are gay. I think the point is that all sexually identity is an illusion influenced heavily by ego. So given the ego suppression of shamanism, it would perhaps be more likely for a shaman to express homosexual tendencies as the ego does not drive this trait. Unlike say the likelihood of a practicing homosexual practicing catholic. That's not to suggest that they are not gay in closet and just live in fear of being their true self.

Ethnodude, A very good post. It's nice to visit this forum on occasion and read some free-thinking discussion points. I don't agree with your post entirely, but I am digging the mindset that formulated it.

Just a further thought, and purely 'in my opinion'.........

Maybe 'true' shaman entities in non-western tribal communities (as opposed to those westerners living an illusion and playing fantasy roles with colourful self-descriptors), don't even consider same-sex coupling to be something that's questioned. We might want to look at cultures, let's say Amazonian tribes for the sake of discussion, and whether they even view homosexuality as an issue?

As we all know, here in the 'west', being gay is some big fucking social theatre drama on both sides of the fence. The conservative mainstream see it as some sort of unusual, dirty practice, the rednecks (that is, men - speaking of male homosexuality) see it as some sort of threat to the fabric of blokey-ness, and the christians view the concept borne of of ungodly abomination, a disease perhaps. Satan surely!

The flip-side is that the gay community often insist on their choices/feelings in same-sex relationships are to be celebrated ostentatiously because it's breaking down the tired old shackles of hetero norms. Or the gay guys that 'come out' and proceed to build mannerisms akin to prancing fairy princesses.

To me, it's all a bit misguided. Why can't each person, each individual, just fuck/live with/form relationships with whatever gender you wish to, without having to follow some sort of unwritten rule as to how you should view the concept, or how you should voice yourself on the subject?. Straight conservative homophobic and effeminate homosexuals may be pretty much driven by the very same soured cultural conditioning on the subject of being gay. It's just the psychological practice of outward expression that differs - AC/DC if you will.

So what about the cultural conditioning of Amazonian tribespeople...... is there even a stigma attached to same-sex coupling ? I hope someone can answer this for me, now that I have allowed myself the time to think (and write!) about the subject. Perhaps the true shamans are simply practicing what their peers are already practicing, in the activity of non-procreation sex. The shamans may not be ‘gay’. The tribe may not be 'gay'. That is, until western-motivated mindsets decide to comment on aspects of a culture that they really can never truly understand.

Many years ago I spend several months in a country whose population is 96% Islamic faith, and exercises capital punishment against homosexuality. Seriously fucked up shit, yes? The unusual consideration is of the definition of homosexuality. In a small tribal village that was my vagabond home for a month of the three months I was there, young guys often fucked other guys. It's wasn't any publicly celebrated gayness, wasn't even ‘gay’ at all.... it was just fucking. The traditional tenants of the faith are so strongly bound in teenagers not dating like westerners do, but being thrown straight into marriage with a girl, and a focus on the importance of both parties being a virgin.

Yet the primal sexual urge, the urge to fuck, in all humans, outside of social conditioning is still in the boys' minds (and groins LOL). So they fuck each other when they get horny. It's not gay; it's just 'a release'. The two persons in any given physical union aren't 'dating', they are just 'doing' an act that their body & mind has the urge to do. Interestingly, It's not even a breaking of their virginity, because that only happens when they finally fuck their woman i.e. wife, for the first time.

Apart from the obscure take on virginity, it's not a bad social practice. It’s Tribal-region Pakistani's make less of a big deal about two guys fucking than most people in Australia do, straights or gays............ there's much less drama.

Peace all, and hope I haven't offended anyone.

B Loco

Edited August 28, 2009 by B. Loco

[G*P]

I dunno,

I once heard that nearly all majik falls under either of 3 models.

-Spirit

-un/sub/conscious mind

-energy

Remembering that Shamanistic model is probably somewhere at the root of all language and society,

it is also a very old, and proably even outdated form of navigating consciousness/ creating change/ healing etc.

In attaching to the thoughtforms of the past, rather than creating our own models all kinds of shit gets mixed in with the truth of things.

I still haven't read much of what 'shamanism' really means to other people.

Maybe some people would rather just identify with jedi, marital artist, practitioner, magician.. hypnotist.. yogi- whatever.

Yeah- all these ppl are on the edge. And for good reason.

The whole list- gay, epileptic, crippled etc.. ->

All incredibly gifted, and capable worldviews conducive to the path.

[Thelema]

I'd like to see a movie about a gay epileptic crippled shaman

Maybe 'true' shaman entities in non-western tribal communities (as opposed to those westerners living an illusion and playing fantasy roles with colourful self-descriptors)

Man, this is seriously skewed - if what you're saying, and I infer you are, is that Westerners can't be "true" shamans": is there not a notion of fantasia and colourful self-description in "traditional" [i.e not western] shamanic roles? Is it merely the medium that distinguishes? We from another culture are so quick to sentimentalize upon the spirituality of quaint feather-dusting rituals and guttural songs from the plants, yet so quick to dismiss the metaphysically uneconomical and uncritical thought of "new age metaphysicalists" and western shamans.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that due to the printing press and internet there are a great many words available in our culture that are shaman-pretentious. Just I reckon don't get global about the whole thing. There's still space for western genuine, fantastical, colourful self-describing shamans. Just got to use your Noos to look out for them. It. He/She.

[B. Loco]

Thelema, for sure. Keep in mind that I am only trying to put into words (perhaps badly) a discussion point that would not be criticised so harshly if it were verbally delivered. Agreed, it sounds opinionated. Perhaps in a way it is.

A failing of mine, perhaps, is that I find it hard to recognise someone who simply calls themself a shaman when they have grown up in an Australian (or American, or English, Canadian, German, Dutch, French etc etc) middle-class comfortable family unit, no matter how great or fucked it was, having food on the table as a kid, watching TV as a babysitter, eating shitty manufactured foods, clothed adequetly, enough blankets to be kept warm in the winter, sent to conventional primary & high school, caught up in the same old mainstream bullshit, yada yada yada.... and then they decide that after dancing with enough psychoactive that they are a shaman... well, yes, I think it's crap.

I laid a salvia experience on a guy about 6 months ago at my house (disclaimer: in a country where legal), without much coercison, but borne from the way the discussion headed after a few drinks. Smart guy, also a very cool being, but someone who hadn't had experience with psychedelics. Without peer pressure, he expressed an interest, so we spoke more about 'the experience'. Whilst he was cautiouos (my talk with him about the salvia experience promoted this in him) about jumping in, and only accepted the key after he had seen me, then my partner, do a bowl, that he took one himself. I knew that this wasn't the kind of mindset that would go deep into an experience and do a silly freak out like the dumbarse shit you see on YouTube.

And guess what ? He came out at the other end of his personal journey, and we discussed his experience at length. There was a lot of past history, vivid (very vivid) recollections of his childhood times with his dad (who I think died/disappeared in some nasty African insurgence). Post-trip, he looked at me and his eyes concurred with his words.. that where I took him to was a nice experience, despite the very odd highway that he travelled on. A couple of hours later, he really wanted some more, so he could try and connect a bit closer to his deceased dad. He didn't get another one, simply because my own feelings lean towards it being a 'very occasional' practice, and not repeatable twice in one night (although this is only my thoughts, I have never actually tripped twice in one night on salvia, my 'soul' says it won't be appropriate or respectful to the salvinorin 'gods'.

Clearly I opened this guy's mind to aspects of himself, stirred emotions that he had kept in check, allowed him to dig deeper into his mind. So am *I* a Shaman ? No, I'm not.

Reading years & years worth of back-catalogue posts here at the Corroboree (there's good info & opinion buried in this place), it has often been said to newbies looking for that unusual ethno, "Don't be so desperate to seek, for the plant experience will find you". Well with this guy (per above), he wasn't seeking anything like this when he came over, but the situation found him.

Yeah. So I'm a shaman too.

[Thelema]

So am *I* a Shaman ? No, I'm not.

Yeah. So I'm a shaman too.

you got it baby!

[G*P]

"Yeah. So I'm a shaman too. "

Of course you are.

Whether the structure and medium is traditional, adhoc or completely chaotic-

it still seems to work, for all intensive purposes.

The rules have probably changed, but we're still all playing the same game.

Thelema began to expand the frame too. Chunking up, and to then find the common denominators.

But^,

were you also perhaps saying the the the feather dusting may not be so quaint after all?

What do you mean by 'western genuine self describing, fantastical shamans'?

Like Mckenna perhaps?

Edited August 28, 2009 by G*P

[B. Loco]

Thelema, it was an expression of duality. Glad you picked it up - it was by design. Now I must buy you a beer, because we have become brothers.

G*P, yes I am, or no I'm not. Take your pick: "Yeah I'm a Shaman too" was really a paraphrasing of this song.

Replace 'Mister" with "Shaman" and while you're listening, consider the implications of the other lyrics.

Anglo-Saxon &/or Caucasian "Aussie" does not make for credible mentoring outside of his/her circle of suckers.

Terence McKenna would be the first to argue against shonky urban shamanism ! If only he were a critique......

[G*P]

Here's the problem.

Some kind of magical thinking.. that isnt really that magical at all.

Playing with thoughtforms, rather than empowering ones ability to create and manipulate those thoughtforms...

disempowerment, through detachment. Confusion/ misidenitifcation.

For practical purposes, there's no reason that anyone who eats a plant and sits under the moon shouldnt be able to call themselves a shaman. There's some kind of elitist projection being placed on shamans, the same way we dealt with ages of human conception of God.

I dont know why so many have been almost disallowing others to connect to the possibilities// by perpetuating these false projections.

Perhaps we're really just agreeing, still.

Shaman, or not- use it or dont. Please- collapse ALL dualities. By a beer for the world, cos we're all your brothers.

But lets not make up stories, and projections and place judgements and theoretical critcisms and armchair wisdoms onto immediately practical, and incredibly available pathways into mastery.

Shamanism is THE most direct source of spirituality. Emerging from the very ground we're sitting on, and the world around us. The incredible dogma that is hurled on top it makes me absolutely sick.

Its far WORSE than even Christian churches claiming dominion over the intermediary between people and the universe/God.

It is like you're/we're doing it to ourselves. Denouncing our own magnitude, and that of nature- in favour of being academically correct about some shit or other.

B.loco,

Terrence was a much a performer, and poet as he was some indelible source of wisdom.

shamans spring from nature. Who amongst us will not return to dust?

go hug a tree, and you've already began the deepest most complete process of initiations available.

[Gimbal]

In answer to the thread topic question no, I don't think the majority of shamans are homosexual. But in the article homosexuality is held up as one example, along with crippled and epileptic. It's really referring to anything that pushes one outside the norm. And I do think it's a fair call to say that the majority of western shamans experience something like that - sexuality, mental health issues, physical disability or something else forces them to question things because they are in the position of 'other'.

But I'm not sure it's as true to say that this is the case with shamans in any other society. There seems to be an inherent contradiction in this article. It says "When a youth becomes alienated from his family and tribe, wanders away and seeks solitude for long periods, or exhibits severe antisocial behavior" - then somehow he turns that around into being a wise person that everyone goes to.

The little I've learned about some 'traditional' shamanic practices indicates that seeing the shaman as a poorly adjusted individual who doesn't fit in is quite possibly a western construct in itself, and something we project on them simply because that's the way it goes down for us. The idea that the shaman sits on a mountain far away from and separate to the life of the village is quite frankly bollocks in a lot of situations. Shamans works within a framework comprised of the collective knowledge the people have gained over time - they are in fact an intrinsic part of the society, rather than people who don't fit into the society. The services they provide are firmly within the cultural context. I'm not sure how it can then be posited that they become shamans for the same reasons as westerners do.

Another thing this article says is that shamans experience a release from the restrictions imposed on others. Well, in some ways, yes. But in traditional societies they are still expected to fit into the 'norms' of what a shaman is and what a shaman does. While these restrictions could be different to the ones other people experience, and might not be easily observable to the casual western observer, they nevertheless exist.

The other thing that bothers me is that this article says shamans are usually hereditary and only sometimes mal-adjusted individuals- and then goes on to explain the institution of shamanism as a tool for dealing with social misfits. How does that fit in with the hereditary thing?

[reptyle]

Intents and purposes...

A Shaman is like a patriarch...delivering spiritual gift and infrastructure on a divinely chosen people for the sake of glorification of life.

Is it because you see yourself and love yourself enough, or because you run from yourself and need opposites to fulfill and complete the being...or is it because it is what your told to do...

Sorcerers follow their own will, own their own karma and live in their owned world...

Shamans surrender to the Supreme personality and as an organ of this greater consciousness, act. Refuge in the one great spirit...buddha, shiva, KaXien, mithra or zarathustra...

Sorcerers whose will is love become shamans...

Blessings and purple flowers with little white hats on them singing "love" into an atmosphere of radiant self similarity...

Edited August 29, 2009 by reptyle

[ThunderIdeal]

I still haven't read much of what 'shamanism' really means to other people.

Maybe some people would rather just identify with jedi, marital artist, practitioner, magician.. hypnotist.. yogi- whatever.

Yeah- all these ppl are on the edge. And for good reason.

The whole list- gay, epileptic, crippled etc.. ->

All incredibly gifted, and capable worldviews conducive to the path.

We from another culture are so quick to sentimentalize upon the spirituality of quaint feather-dusting rituals and guttural songs from the plants, yet so quick to dismiss the metaphysically uneconomical and uncritical thought of "new age metaphysicalists" and western shamans.

maybe we can focus on distinctions that are actually relevant? rather than stating whether or not you're a shaman (which won't be agreed upon) state your practises, beliefs and experiences.

i wouldn't know a genuine amazon shaman if he brewed me a dose and sung me icaros.

if you tell me you're a shaman in australia i believe you, but does my definition of shaman even do justice to you? ...... so what is even the point of claiming this poorly defined word as your title when others don't know what it's supposed to mean? heck by now there are probably one or two people that will think you are claiming to be gay.

all said i really like the last (EDIT) three posts.

Edited August 29, 2009 by ThunderIdeal

[G*P]

yeh..

who really cares who is shaman or not?

Genuine.. ? .. hahaahahahaha.

when did that become an issue? Egos fighting egos. dumb.

It's not a club,

its what happens when you love your planet, and empty your mind. Somehow, service becomes obvious- and there ya!

"Sorcerers whose will is love become shamans..."

Excellent!

[Gimbal]

I think shamanism is one of those terms that's so broad in meanings it's virtually useless - as soon as you use it people start arguing about what shamanism actually is. Not surprising really considering the etymology of the word.

I'm enjoying the various personal definitions that are appearing on here.

[t st tantra]

so many different tribes,many different approaches to shamanism or whatever you want to call it........i like the idea that anyone in a tribe can be a shaman.in some tribes anyone who takes aya and brings back a song, can use the song for healing and so is considered a shaman.a tribe in which most people are shamen or shawomen would seem my ideal!

t s t .

[Alchemica]

On the different approaches to shamanism, I'm keen to hear some opinions...

I'd like to know how western medicine can implement shamanic approaches to healing and harmonise as one, preferably without feeding a drug company/organisation/individual? Say if a group develops their roots in traditional western science/medicine but overlays the shamanic experience (or "neo-shamanic experience") how can the outcome be kept as a synergy of the two, not a conflict?

Personally, I see plants as great teachers on their own but also potential leads for new ways of thinking. Is it "anti-shamanic" to hope for a future that uses the lessons of nature and spiritual models of healing as building blocks, in combination with the technology that science brings forward to merge the shamanic experience into a new treatment paradigm for a larger population target?

Agree that nature is often the best medicine (and that moving away from it has done harm in some areas) but do people here see drug design and medicine changing for the better in the future, or just exploiting plants? Has our understanding gained through science, in particular molecular biology, improved on "what the plants told the shamans" or just added complexity and more paths for problems to arise?

Edited August 31, 2009 by Alchemica