WHERE DOES THE UNIVERSE END?

[san]

ok then if we are expanding from one point {IE bigbang/nothing} should we not constantly see the effects of this i mean the bang/the event.... the nothing the ? i think we do... are we not traveling in a universe amongst many away from the event ?...i mean if we are expanding away from the {big bang/nothing event} how can it echo ? if we are traveling at the speed of light away from the beginning the only echos will be within this universe?

well...its not actually the big bang. in the first moments of the big bang the universe expanded so rapidly that nothing could escape it. The radiation was emitted for the first 380 000 years of the universes existence. At that time the universe was 0.1% of its present size, which is still immensely large, and rapidly expanding. The radiation emitted by particles furtherest away from us only just catching up.

*echo may have been a poor analogy*

Edited October 25, 2008 by san

[tardistestpilot]

We do. We can see the expansion of the universe and also the microwave background.

Why do you say this?

It is not literally an echo. San was just using that as an analogy. Remember that the big bang began right where you are sitting! It also began where I am sitting...and millions of light years away. See, all these points once existed in one place, and space has expanded between them. So any direction you look in, you will be able to see close to the time of the big bang if you look far enough.

Just to emphasise, the beginning is everywhere, we are not travelling away from it.

hey yes that makes more sense to me thanks agaain so the begining could have and more than likely was infinite in one place and still is

[ballzac]

hey yes that makes more sense to me thanks agaain so the begining could have and more than likely was infinite in one place and still is

I honestly don't know the answer to that. I think in order to expand, it would have to increase in size, and would therefore need to be of finite size to begin with. But that's just a guess...assuming you mean infinite in size. If you meant in density, then I gather it began as infinite density.

[tardistestpilot]

well...its not actually the big bang. in the first moments of the big bang the universe expanded so rapidly that nothing could escape it. The radiation was emitted for the first 380 000 years of the universes existence. At that time the universe was 0.1% of its present size, which is still immensely large, and rapidly expanding. The radiation emitted by particles furtherest away from us only just catching up.

*echo may have been a poor analogy*

sorry san wasnt trying to pick holes at you was just trying understand and all you guys input has been awesome

[tardistestpilot]

I honestly don't know the answer to that. I think in order to expand, it would have to increase in size, and would therefore need to be of finite size to begin with. But that's just a guess...assuming you mean infinite in size. If you meant in density, then I gather it began as infinite density.

maybe just the distance between all the dark matter it would only need to be half or a millionth of a sub atomic partical and the diference in mass would be infinite yes?

[ballzac]

maybe just the distance between all the dark matter it would only need to be half or a millionth of a sub atomic partical and the diference in mass would be infinite yes?

I have no idea what you mean

[san]

i think i agree with ballzac

"Remember that the big bang began right where you are sitting! It also began where I am sitting...and millions of light years away. See, all these points once existed in one place, and space has expanded between them. So any direction you look in, you will be able to see close to the time of the big bang if you look far enough."

the universe did not grow from a singular point. it existed at a point and expanded from it. meaning every particle was once at that point and that point is the universe because it has expanded with the rest of matter.

[tardistestpilot]

I have no idea what you mean

neither do I i think i will shut up now

[tardistestpilot]

i think i agree with ballzac

"Remember that the big bang began right where you are sitting! It also began where I am sitting...and millions of light years away. See, all these points once existed in one place, and space has expanded between them. So any direction you look in, you will be able to see close to the time of the big bang if you look far enough."

the universe did not grow from a singular point. it existed at a point and expanded from it. meaning every particle was once at that point and that point is the universe because it has expanded with the rest of matter.

thankyou best explanation that i can understand so far!!!!you guys go ......{AH thank fuck for that...rolling of eyes..lol}

[ballzac]

i think i agree with ballzac

"Remember that the big bang began right where you are sitting! It also began where I am sitting...and millions of light years away. See, all these points once existed in one place, and space has expanded between them. So any direction you look in, you will be able to see close to the time of the big bang if you look far enough."

the universe did not grow from a singular point. it existed at a point and expanded from it. meaning every particle was once at that point and that point is the universe because it has expanded with the rest of matter.

Yes. I think a good way to look at it, is as the surface of a sphere rather than the interior. If you imagine it in three dimentional space, the centre of the sphere has signigicance, and everything moves away from that point. But if you imagine the three dimentions of our universe 'smeared' across the surface of the sphere, there is no longer any point that has any special signifigance. As the sphere expands, and two points move away from each other, but every point began at the beginning. To illustrate this, take a balloon and draw galaxies on it, then blow up the balloon.

[Chiral]

What big bang...?

prove it...!

The universe has been around forever...end of story ..now turn off that PC and get to bed.

H.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Hunab Ku

[tardistestpilot]

I couldn't agree more. The reality is -nothing- has a beginning and an end, there is only change. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, species are not created, they evolve, etc. I think if matter cannot be created or destroyed, then the big bang couldn't be created out of nothing, and there must have been something before the big bang. The alternative is to believe that the universe was -created-, and that infers a creator, which means there must exist some kind of God-like character. Everything we know says God doesn't exist (IMO anyway), so its more probable that the universe always was, and always will be.

Edit: that also fits in with san's problem of the first uncaused cause. Einstein was a pretty smart guy, i know he's been proven wrong in a few things, but he still makes sense to me. P.S. The cause and effect chain faces a real problem in Quantum Mechanics, where the collapse of the wave function appears to affect two correlated particles in superposition at the same time, meaning that "cause and effect" is violated. As much as i like determinism, its on shaky ground thanks to QM.

yes so true i think the big bang is {"god"} theory /creationism /intelligent design...it does give religion something to jump on

[tardistestpilot]

What big bang...?

prove it...!

The universe has been around forever...end of story ..now turn off that TV and get to bed.

H.

yes it has and nobody can .....lol and f u am gonna grab a beer and troll youtube

Edited October 25, 2008 by tardistestpilot

[Mr Stay Puft]

universe has no end...think about it for a little bit...the only thing that stops matter from ultimately reaching a point of equilibrium is the fact there is always more and more matter out there to keep everything in a dynamic state...infinite matter, infinite space!

[Mr Stay Puft]

as for expansion...big bang was just a black hole that consumed so much matter it could not contain itself...it blew up in a tremendous explosion pushing everything that was around out at that same speed as the explosion...as for the rest (infinite matter and space i was just talking bout) well thats just too far for us to monitor...and there is a very BIG possibility there are mega black holes out there that limit what we can see beyond the realms of our 'big bang'

[ballzac]

as for expansion...big bang was just a black hole that consumed so much matter it could not contain itself...it blew up in a tremendous explosion pushing everything that was around out at that same speed as the explosion...as for the rest (infinite matter and space i was just talking bout) well thats just too far for us to monitor...and there is a very BIG possibility there are mega black holes out there that limit what we can see beyond the realms of our 'big bang'

Actually, the more matter a black hole contains, the more gravitational energy it has to keep itself together. It is the extremely small black holes that explode.

[Undergrounder]

Aren't the black holes they're creating up in France/Switzerland extremely small?

[ballzac]

Aren't the black holes they're creating up in France/Switzerland extremely small?

So are the explosions

[Mr Stay Puft]

i understand the concept of a black hole...but the ones im talking about have consumed enough matter that they contain what we believe to be a universe inside them...when they can no longer be contained in a single point (singularity) some strange things can happen...such as the matter spewing back out as plasma at a rate somassive...possibly caused by 2 massive blackholes trying to consume each other...so not just a blackhole slowly suking up things but one going from a relativly large mass right to a absoltely mindboggling mass in a matter of nano seconds....bitting off more than it can chew if you get my drift

obviously all theoretical but if blackholes could keep swallowing matter for ever, AND, the universe has an end then eventually it will all be sucked up and nothing will exist cept for the blackhole...

Edited October 27, 2008 by Mr Stay Puft

[ballzac]

I thought the only known mechanism for loss of mass in a black hole was Hawking radiation.

[Mr Stay Puft]

or you could take string theory's spin on things...everything is made up of tiny strings...matter is a string with both ends attached to a membrane (our universe) and gravity is made of circular strings called gravitrons. There are many membranes that make up existence and gravity, as it is not attached to any membrane can travel between membranes. When gravity becomes so strong at a point that the membranes are drawn together and touch....ta da a big bang...

all these things...including my and anyone elses takes on blackholes are 'theories' in that we will probably never know the answer...

my spin on things is as in my previous posts...for those who only believe what mathematicians posing as cosmologists believe i have one question. If there is an end to the universe whats there? A brick wall, a sign that says wrong way go back, or do you just pop out the other side like old skool computer games.

sometimes i think people place too much emphasis on there being an answer when there just isnt. Space is just that, space!

Edited October 28, 2008 by Mr Stay Puft

[woof woof woof]

i say that there is no end!

just like there is no nothing..... only 'everything' exists!

just because your perception has seen an end,...... does that mean that there is an actual end?

the so called 'nothingness' is just another form of energy that we do not understand yet.

just what i think

[ThunderIdeal]

i don't have my literature available to give more info, but i believe there is uncertainty as to what happens when super blackholes begin consuming everything, or whether this will happen at all. it's true that there is only one KNOWN type of radiation from blackholes. the unfortunate answer cogno is that no philosopher, geometer or astrophysicist really knows yet, but i like the idea somebody mentioned that blackholes (more ancient than our big bang) are obscuring our view beyond our universe (our big bang), in what must be an enormous ocean of mass constantly forming super blackholes and big bangs.

the closest you'll probably come to witnessing eternity in this life is a sip of acid and i mean an actual sip. i don't think there's an end anymore, it's kinda horrifying depending on how you think about it.

[Mr Stay Puft]

its actually very interesting...thank you for taking my theories for what they are and that is 'theories' but i just think its the simplest answer no end just infinity, in time, in space and in matter...

funny how some people find it completely horrifying. i actually find it quite liberating.

my philosophy on life, which is based on my view of the universe (or 'multiverse' as i like to call it considering i think of our big bang as just one of the infinite 'universes' out there), is to enjoy life as much as possible without hindering anyone elses enjoyment, AND actually assisting others in their enjoyment. i think that the idea of a life after life sometimes gives people a way out of making this life 'heaven' as they believe that they will go to heaven after they leave this place.

i dont know if an afterlife exists, but i am sure this life exists so i am going to make it the best damn life ever...with my views on cosmology i only believe in one fact, that one day the atoms that make up my body will one day be the center of another blackhole, that will explode to create another universe, and so on and so forth until there is another planet, orbiting a star much like ours, and somewhere deep in a volcanoe on that planets surface, chemical reactions will be taking place that give rise to life once again.....as the universe is endless that is all probably happening right now, as i type these words, and happening an infinite number of times.....

[chilli]

Cool thread.

"the universe is not expanding into anything; there is simply more space at later times than at earlier times"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space