WHERE DOES THE UNIVERSE END?

[incognito]

and whats after that? and dont tell me the universe is expanding into nothingness but if so,

where does the nothingness end? and what is that nothingness?

thanks for anyhelp.

[mark80]

and whats after that? and dont tell me the universe is expanding into nothingness but if so,

where does the nothingness end? and what is that nothingness?

thanks for anyhelp.

have you considered it just can't be explained? you think in 4 dimesions we know there were at least 12 dimesions before according to string theory. Thats just like looking at 4 sided cube.

[Genesis]

This question usta keep me up at night as a kid. I was sure that there had to be a brick wall or something, but after that there would just be never-ending nothingness... Something that, to this day, I still can't get my head around. How can there just be never-ending-ness? Crazy shit.

Makes you wonder, if the universe if so expansive then by chance there HAS to be other life forms out there... HAS to be.

Just makes me think of Monty Python:

"Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving

And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,

That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,

A sun that is the source of all our power.

The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see

Are moving at a million miles a day

In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,

Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.

It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.

It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,

But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.

We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.

We go 'round every two hundred million years,

And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions

In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding

In all of the directions it can whizz

As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,

Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,

How amazingly unlikely is your birth,

And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,

'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth. "

Haha,

Gen

[Amulte]

no no no its like this.

(this contains some inhuman variables... you have been warned)

make a rocket to travel fast than light. and make a telescope that can see unfathomable distances, then travel through space without hitting anything, and after about 10 billion years stop your craft, and look back to the center of the universe with your insane distance telescope and you will see the big bang.....

if anyone doubts me go and proove me wrong

[Teotzlcoatl]

I think perhaps that the expansion of space also equates to the passing of time, outside the expanding universe time does not exist?

Alright hang on...

Perhaps, the expansion of the universe also in some way equates to time, and outside of the expanding universe time does not exist, therefore... nothing exist?

Perhap the speed of expansion has something to do with the rate at which time passes...

Man I don't know honestly... How could we ever know? Maybe it's more important that we ask these questions, than actually finding the answers to them.... maybe, the answer is in the asking.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Teotz'

[Chiral]

Everything happening within my brain is real...

Everything outside of that is questionable.

H.

[paradox]

i choose to think that you're making the universe with your thoughts. so it ends wherever you decide it ends. i choose to think it has no end because from all that i've experienced, that is what makes the most sense to me. it's a hologram inside your head, but your head is inside the hologram. i don't think the intellect plays a very significant role when it comes to these questions.

[incognito]

i choose to think that you're making the universe with your thoughts. so it ends wherever you decide it ends. i choose to think it has no end because from all that i've experienced, that is what makes the most sense to me. it's a hologram inside your head, but your head is inside the hologram. i don't think the intellect plays a very significant role when it comes to these questions.

seems like alot of intellect went into coming to that conclusion though!

nice 1.

like another member said, was always a thought that used to keep me awake at night as a child.

[Undergrounder]

as others have said i think it has something to do with space and time itself are expanding? so it's not like the universe is expanding -into- anything, its that space itself is created by the universe, and 'outside' of that doesn't make sense. or something. i don't know.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Undergrounder

[Thelema]

OK let me enlighten you. A mathematician called Riemann showed that the topology of mathematical models of the Universe could be seperate from their geometrical description. Which, to simplify, means that he discovered a way to talk about space as a relational metric that could wrap around on itself without any reference to a further space that it is embedded in. This is a really hard concept to understand as long as you persist in imagining space as Euclidean, which is flat space. Even imagining a curved metric space seems to involve imagining it being embedded in a higher-dimensional Euclidean flat-space. This is where the analogies of blowing-up balloons with dots on them seem to fail. The point is, you've got to imagine yourself in the expanding Universe from the viewpoint of being on the surface of the expansion, not from a viewpoint outside of the expansion looking upon it.

I suggest any of Sklar's works to read upon the philosophy of space.

[Legba]

The Universe is the current accepted description of all and everything. Since the discovery of Gravity, planets previously unknown of have been discovered. It's most likely that we are unaware of other forces acting on us but if we should somehow become aware of them, then the Universe will no doubt appear different again.

If a blood cell could imagine a galaxy, what good would it be to the cell? If the cell could be aware of its own Universe - it's cell wall, the various parts within and their form and function wholistically - perhaps an awareness of it's own Universe can be established.

I'm guessing this would lead to a better understanding of it all, man. The Uberverse!

[tardistestpilot]

no no no its like this.

(this contains some inhuman variables... you have been warned)

make a rocket to travel fast than light. and make a telescope that can see unfathomable distances, then travel through space without hitting anything, and after about 10 billion years stop your craft, and look back to the center of the universe with your insane distance telescope and you will see the big bang.....

if anyone doubts me go and proove me wrong

hey yeah exactly what you said man only you would not need a telescope or a rocket all you would need to do is simply look and you would see the big bang and even hear it yes i know how does sound travel in a vacuum? space/universe is not a vacuum but a soup of dark mater/quarks/vogons/leptons etc..etc of course you do not see or hear this so it never happened i think thats what they are trying to say here http://www.asnsw.com/universe/alternate/AU3/bigbang.asp i think they have discovered that the big bang theory to be impossible .......just when you think you have the answers there becomes more questions im gonna stay awake over this

Edited October 25, 2008 by tardistestpilot

[san]

ive seen the big bang....

all you have to do is de-tune your TV till you get static

a small percentage of that static is caused by the radiation emitted by the big bang 15billion years ago.

the radiation used to be light but as the universe expanded it was stretched to radio waves.

[tardistestpilot]

ive seen the big bang....

all you have to do is de-tune your TV till you get static

a small percentage of that static is caused by the radiation emitted by the big bang 15billion years ago.

the radiation used to be light but as the universe expanded it was stretched to radio waves.

very interesting so if light was stretched to become static on a tv ?how would you see it because it would be in the future? i thought radiowaves and light travel at the same speed

am very confused now

Edited October 25, 2008 by tardistestpilot

[tardistestpilot]

very interesting so if light was stretched to become static on a tv ?how would you see it because it would be in the future? i thought radiowaves and light travel at the same speed

am very confused now

ummmm i think i just answered my question

[Chiral]

You are in fact correct on that...

Speed of sound being..being approximately 331.5 m/s at 0 °C or around 1200 km per hour.

Speed of light being..186,000 miles/sec = 300,000 km/s = 3 x 10 10 cm/s (= 1 light-year/year)

The basic shape of the wave generated by a transmitter is that of a sine wave. The wave radiated out into space, however, may or may not retain the characteristics of the sine wave.

A sine wave can be one cycle or many cycles. The number of cycles of a sine wave that are completed in 1 second is known as the frequency of the sine wave. For example, if 60 cycles of ordinary house current occur each second, so house current is said to have a frequency of 60 cycles per second or 60 hertz.

The frequencies falling between 3000 hertz (3 kHz) and 300,000,000,000 hertz (300 GHz) are called RADIO FREQUENCIES (abbreviated rf) since they are commonly used in radio communications. This part of the radio frequency spectrum is divided into bands, each band being 10 times higher in frequency than the one immediately below it. This arrangement serves as a convenient way to remember the range of each band. The rf bands are shown in table 2-1. The usable radio-frequency range is roughly 10 kilohertz to 100 gigahertz.

Radio Frequency Bands

DESCRIPTION ABBREVIATION FREQUENCY

Very low VLF 3 to 30 KHz

Low LF 30 to 300 KHz

Medium MF 300 to 3000 KHz

High HF 3 to 30 MHz

Very high VHF 30 to 300 MHz

Ultra high UHF 300 to 3000 MHz

Superhigh SHF 3 to 30 GHz

Extremely high EHF 30 to 300 GHz

Any frequency that is a whole number multiple of a smaller basic frequency is known as a HARMONIC of that basic frequency. The basic frequency itself is called the first harmonic or, more commonly, the FUNDAMENTAL FREQUENCY. A frequency that is twice as great as the fundamental frequency is called the second harmonic; a frequency three times as great is the third harmonic; and so on. For example:

First harmonic (Fundamental frequency) 3000 kHz

Second harmonic 6000 kHz

Third harmonic 9000 kHz

The PERIOD of a radio wave is simply the amount of time required for the completion of one full cycle. If a sine wave has a frequency of 2 hertz, each cycle has a duration, or period, of one-half second. If the frequency is 10 hertz, the period of each cycle is one-tenth of a second. Since the frequency of a radio wave is the number of cycles that are completed in one second, you should be able to see that as the frequency of a radio wave increases, its period decreases.

A wavelength is the space occupied by one full cycle of a radio wave at any given instant. Wavelengths are expressed in meters (1 meter is equal to 3.28 feet). You need to have a good understanding of frequency and wavelength to be able to select the proper antenna(s) for use in successful communications.

The velocity (or speed) of a radio wave radiated into free space by a transmitting antenna is equal to the speed of light - 186,000 miles per second or 300,000,000 meters per second. Because of various factors, such as barometric pressure, humidity, molecular content, etc., radio waves travel inside the Earth's atmosphere at a speed slightly less than the speed of light. Normally, the velocity of radio waves, the velocity referred to is the speed at which radio waves travel in free space.

H.....

Edited October 25, 2008 by Hunab Ku

[san]

very interesting so if light was stretched to become static on a tv ?how would you see it because it would be in the future? i thought radiowaves and light travel at the same speed

am very confused now

think of it as an echo... the reason we can see it now despite it happen 13.8 billion years ago is because it has traveled 13.8 billion light years to get here. Looking into deep space is effectively looking back in time. If you look far enough you can see (not really see but detect) the after glow of the big bang.

[tardistestpilot]

think of it as an echo... the reason we can see it now despite it happen 13.8 billion years ago is because it has traveled 13.8 billion light years to get here. Looking into deep space is effectively looking back in time. If you look far enough you can see (not really see but detect) the after glow of the big bang.

still can not understand how light can be stretched into radio waves and somthing else.... just maybe we as humans having a finite lifetime ...{like beginning and an end to ourlifetime} we have this obsession of explaining things we know little of with a beginning and a convenient end

[tardistestpilot]

think of it as an echo... the reason we can see it now despite it happen 13.8 billion years ago is because it has traveled 13.8 billion light years to get here. Looking into deep space is effectively looking back in time. If you look far enough you can see (not really see but detect) the after glow of the big bang.

an echo ok ok i know what your saying that reminds me of sitting in a tank me as the begining and the tank walls the universe/darkmatter/etcetc...whats on the outside of the walls? and what are the walls made of ?are the walls an alternate universe/dimension? with all the same questions ?

Edited October 25, 2008 by tardistestpilot

[san]

i think we as humans get caught up in defining things in the simple term we are used to. i believe it limits our ability to comprehend things like this. when we hear about the universe we assume its like room which we live in and there is something beyond it.

from my understanding of the universe i believe it to be more like a realm in which we as matter exists within. and as for whats outside the walls of our universe i believe there is nothing. nothing as in NOTHING not even space a place where matter cannot exist because the dimensions that define our universe do not apply beyond its limits.

Ive always been fascinated by the start of universe. einstein was at first apprehensive at the notion of the start of the universe. mainly because:

-Everything that begins to exist must have a cause

-If the universe began to exist

-then the universe must have a cause

i wonder if there needs to be a cause if the net result of the universe is 0. assuming there is enough dark matter to counteract all the matter?

maybe the universe is an expansion of nothing like the beautiful equation: e^(iπ )+1 = 0

[Undergrounder]

still can not understand how light can be stretched into radio waves and somthing else.... just maybe we as humans having a finite lifetime ...{like beginning and an end to ourlifetime} we have this obsession of explaining things we know little of with a beginning and a convenient end

I couldn't agree more. The reality is -nothing- has a beginning and an end, there is only change. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, species are not created, they evolve, etc. I think if matter cannot be created or destroyed, then the big bang couldn't be created out of nothing, and there must have been something before the big bang. The alternative is to believe that the universe was -created-, and that infers a creator, which means there must exist some kind of God-like character. Everything we know says God doesn't exist (IMO anyway), so its more probable that the universe always was, and always will be.

Edit: that also fits in with san's problem of the first uncaused cause. Einstein was a pretty smart guy, i know he's been proven wrong in a few things, but he still makes sense to me. P.S. The cause and effect chain faces a real problem in Quantum Mechanics, where the collapse of the wave function appears to affect two correlated particles in superposition at the same time, meaning that "cause and effect" is violated. As much as i like determinism, its on shaky ground thanks to QM.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Undergrounder

[ballzac]

still can not understand how light can be stretched into radio waves

radio waves have a lower frequency but the same velocity as visible light. As space stretches, the light within it is also stretched, increasing the wavelength (and hence decreasing the frequency) of the light. Or you could simply look at it as the universe cooling as it expands, like gases do.

Edited October 25, 2008 by ballzac

[tardistestpilot]

i think we as humans get caught up in defining things in the simple term we are used to. i believe it limits our ability to comprehend things like this. when we hear about the universe we assume its like room which we live in and there is something beyond it.

from my understanding of the universe i believe it to be more like a realm in which we as matter exists within. and as for whats outside the walls of our universe i believe there is nothing. nothing as in NOTHING not even space a place where matter cannot exist because the dimensions that define our universe do not apply beyond its limits.

Ive always been fascinated by the start of universe. einstein was at first apprehensive at the notion of the start of the universe. mainly because:

-Everything that begins to exist must have a cause

-If the universe began to exist

-then the universe must have a cause

i wonder if there needs to be a cause if the net result of the universe is 0. assuming there is enough dark matter to counteract all the matter?

maybe the universe is an expansion of nothing like the beautiful equation: e^(iπ )+1 = 0

ok then if we are expanding from one point {IE bigbang/nothing} should we not constantly see the effects of this i mean the bang/the event.... the nothing the ? i think we do... are we not traveling in a universe amongst many away from the event ?...i mean if we are expanding away from the {big bang/nothing event} how can it echo ? if we are traveling at the speed of light away from the beginning the only echos will be within this universe?

[ballzac]

ok then if we are expanding from one point {IE bigbang/nothing} should we not constantly see the effects of this i mean the bang/the event

We do. We can see the expansion of the universe and also the microwave background.

are we not traveling in a universe amongst many away from the event ?

Why do you say this?

i mean if we are expanding away from the {big bang/nothing event} how can it echo ?

It is not literally an echo. San was just using that as an analogy. Remember that the big bang began right where you are sitting! It also began where I am sitting...and millions of light years away. See, all these points once existed in one place, and space has expanded between them. So any direction you look in, you will be able to see close to the time of the big bang if you look far enough.

if we are traveling at the speed of light away from the beginning the only echos will be within this universe?

Just to emphasise, the beginning is everywhere, we are not travelling away from it.

[tardistestpilot]

radio waves have a lower frequency but the same velocity as visible light. As space stretches, the light within it is also stretched, increasing the wavelength (and hence decreasing the frequency) of the light. Or you could simply look at it as the universe cooling as it expands, like gases do.

thankyou balls i can understand that to a point where space is variable there for if space time shortens the radio wave turns back to light? sublimation ?{lol i have no idea what im talking about} i think it has to do with the mass of the space traveled as to what the light ends up as?