Would you go to war for australia

[teonanacatl]

I heard the herds version of I was only 19 the other day and it got me thinking, would I fight for my country......

I would not fight in somone elses war, like vietnam or iraq. Now Im not a violent person and Im all about peace and love but

if australia was invaded and under attack I would. Because I think then it is about more for me, its for my mates and family etc.

I would be more inclined to join a rebel group than the military but would join the military if need be.

What you guys think?

I think an interesting question given most people here would be pacifists, but also want freedom/free will etc.

[shruman]

Who's invading us?, someone to truly set us free & overturn our tyranical government? or the Nazi's?

Too many variables for me to vote.

[MORG]

Yeah, good questions.

I definitely see myself as a pacifist, but when pushed by extreme events such as an invasion I suppose I would be forced to respond in some way. As far as I can see, if you're aiding someone to fight you're still fighting. So I may as well fight.

If I had the option I would join a rebel group. The idea of working in a small idealistic team where my voice could be heard appeals more than the authoritarian control of the military. I don't want to be a pawn.

Plus I think I would be more effective in guerilla-style sneak-attacks than balls-to-the-wall military assault. I am a strategic person and think my skills would be better used that way.

That said, I think I'd be gunned down pretty early. I've never even been in a fist fight and never fired a gun. I do like to think I'd be an able marksman with some training though. Steady hand, strong nerve and all that. I'd probably have to work on that upper-body strength to handle repetitive kick on a rifle being the skinny bastard I am.

So who wants to do some paintball?

[MORG]

Who's invading us?, someone to truly set us free & overturn our tyranical government? or the Nazi's?

Commie-Nazi-Hippy-Lesbian-Single-Mothers and they're pissed off cos they've been misrepresented by Today Tonight.

[MindExpansion]

I can't answer the first question because it depends on situation. I wouldn't go where Rudd thought we were needed, but if we were requested by another country I might. Say WWII began again, I would go and fight because of how strongly I disagree with what the Nazi's were doing.

As far as fighting an invasion...yeh. I can't really think of a situation where a country invading this country would be for the benifit of the pre-invasion residents of the country, because most countries likely to be involved in invasions would be unlikely to make good kind leaders (while our current government isnt doing anything too inhumane to make the invasion a humanitarian issue).

I would go with rebel force...but only because of those John Marsden books I read a few years ago

Hopefully none of it happens though.

Peace,

Mind

[baphomet]

I think an interesting question given most people here would be pacifists, but also want freedom/free will etc.

"Everyone's a pacifist between wars. It's like being a vegetarian between meals."

- Colman McCarthy

[teonanacatl]

Who's invading us?, someone to truly set us free & overturn our tyranical government? or the Nazi's?

The latter.

I've never even been in a fist fight and never fired a gun.

Same, though I broke somones sternum in an inline hockey game......

Certianly made me think of tomorrow when the war began when I was thinking about this!!!!

[teonanacatl]

curiously those who vote to run and hide im interested to hear your opinions.

[watertrade]

if invaded I think I'd rather sign up to a government organised military - for a number of reasons I might get a chance to list later.

I imagine in time of life and death of a nation it wouldn't help to have a number of rebel armies running around on the side. And when it comes to fighting a modern war - as much as I don't like the Army - they probably know what’s best.

and besides - my government needs my body to stop bullets from hitting more important people.

[GingaNinja]

I voted no and run and hide.

Dont see the point in fighting. I think the fact that I dont plan on spending many of my years in Oz has something to do with it also.

[misteek]

and besides - my government needs my body to stop bullets from hitting more important people.

lol ahaha.

unless i see rudd out on the frontline, fighting someone elses war - no thanks.

[Auxin]

Not being aussie I didnt vote.. but as a USAdian I would never join in an illegal and unjustified war like Iraq, Afghanistan (yes it IS flagrantly illegal under international law), or Vietnam. If I were drafted for war I would happily fill up half of a jail cell as a illegal pacifist rather than fight. If my country were invaded I would neither fight nor run and hide, I'd work in the underground getting medicine and messages of hippie love to the people.

Who's invading us?, someone to truly set us free & overturn our tyranical government? or the Nazi's?

Invading armies, as in the aggressors, are never the good guys. The provocative waging of war against another country was the highest crime the Nuremberg tribunals charged the nazis with, its the most extreme war crime of which all other crimes follow. If someone charged in to "liberate" you all they would liberate is weapon and rebuilding contracts for their own friends while stomping your people down. For examples just look at...... the totality of human history!

Hippie peace love, man. Dig it.

[holymountain]

will they test lsd on me like the CIA did to US soldiers in the 60s?

[baphomet]

Who's invading us?, someone to truly set us free & overturn our tyranical government? or the Nazi's?

Too many variables for me to vote.

Well you can bet your ass that anyone who invades us will not be doing it to "set us free" from what you refer to as our "tyranical government", and don't for one minute think that they would be doing it to liberate you from our draconian drug laws either.

It would most likely be indonesia! Their drug laws are far worse than ours and their intention would be to steal our land and resources not to free you from your victim complex thats for sure! In fact they have a scorched earth policy and couldn't care less about you, you would be killed because you are using up valuable oxygen and taking up too much space! To say that their military (The TNI) has a bad track record of human rights abuses is an understatement, the last documentary I saw about them they were cutting out still beating hearts and chunks of flesh, eyes and other organs and feeding it to their dogs among other things far too disturbing to mention. Many of our soldiers are racists and not very nice people I'm sure but I believe that in general they are more civilized and have a higher sense of morals than most people in many other countries! I could imagine groups of them carrying out summary executions perhaps, maybe rape but not the sort of things that the TNI do and certainly not on such a large scale. I think if the Australian military gave the orders for them to indiscriminately kill civilians, most of them would tell their superiors to fuck off and would not follow the order, the same can not be said however for many other countries in Africa, Asia, The Balkans, etc.

Whether you know it or not you are already living under a Nazi style regime in many ways, the most powerful people in the world not only helped to create but also learned much from the Nazi party, their science and social engineering secrets were stolen in project paperclip and are still being used today. Likewise it would seem many of the philosophies of the Nazi party such as fascism, eugenics, etc are also quite popular among these people. Australia is probably the luckiest country in the world and it is not our government you should have a problem with but those who govern it!

Australia is owned by a certain group of people who are not Australians, as are most countries!! Therefore I would do my best to avoid fighting to expand their sphere of influence but would fight to defend my own life and that of my family if we are invaded!

"If I had the option I would join a rebel group. The idea of working in a small idealistic team where my voice could be heard appeals more than the authoritarian control of the military. I don't want to be a pawn."

What weapons would you use? They took all the guns remember?? Those who support gun control should have a serious think about that!

"Invading armies, as in the aggressors, are never the good guys"

Whilst I can't see it being the case in terms of someone invading Australia, I do not agree with this statement. If we had the military capabilities I would like to see us invade far too many countries to even mention in an effort to reduce cruelty to animals mainly... oh.. and also to limit human suffering (although that's a distant second).

IMO your view is far too simplistic and just plain wrong Auxin, war can be a valuable tool to reduce suffering, sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind!

I'd work in the underground getting medicine and messages of hippie love to the people.. Hippie peace love, man. Dig it.

LMFAO!

[divinersage]

I wouldn't fight someone elses war unless i saw great value in doing so and im not talking about money / resources, i mean if we say for a silly example invaded china so we could help control damage to the climate and industrial dominance along with poor quality of life for the majority of the population and terrible attitude towards animals. Something like that id probably be in, apart from the fact china would demolish us.

If we were invaded id definitely fight, all those years of laser tag as a youngster would come to good use. and school would of actually taught me something important, HOW TO SHOOT A GUN. Haha still dont know how a religious private school saw it acceptable to let 15 year olds ( at the time ) shoot m16's and AK's on an overseas trip in Vietnam, i guess we wheeeeere shooting pink hippos though.

[MindExpansion]

Okies...

What weapons would you use? They took all the guns remember?? Those who support gun control should have a serious think about that!

Every county's army has plenty of guns to go round. (Not that they would pass them out but you'll see where i'm going) So as far as saying everyone should have guns to protect the country goes...well I think that idea sort've...well doesn't work, how many people get shot in the US every day...lots. And ummm...how many military weapons do they have...probably more than any other country in the world...so, how many civilian weapons do they need...none, and as such what benifit is there from having heaps of civilian weapons around, well lets sum up: lots of people killing each other, no improvement to national security, in fact probably a decrease in national security because criminals have the same guns as the cops, if not often better, and the 'big bad' terrorists could get them too (look out, one might be under your bed! [flashes back to communist fears]). So where are the pro's? Ummm, if my homie disses me I can bust a cap in his ass? If my neighbour waters my lawn I can shoot him dead (serves hiim right the bastard), oh but wait I can protect myself and my home...against the robber who probably has a gun too? That makes perfect sense.

So yeh, I'll take my chances with the invasion and keep the gun control.

(Sorry if you were being sarcastic, wouldn't i look like an idiot...wouldn't be the first time lately I'd totally missed some sarcasm though so...)

If we had the military capabilities I would like to see us invade far too many countries to even mention in an effort to reduce cruelty to animals mainly... oh.. and also to limit human suffering (although that's a distant second).

Of course, how obvious, the secret to stopping animal cruelty is to kill thousands/millions of people, many probably innocent, take away their identity, the independence and to some degree their freedom.

(This time the possibility for sarcasm seemed less, but just in case...sorry if you were).

Peace,

Mind

Edited August 28, 2008 by MindExpansion

[Auxin]

IMO your view is far too simplistic and just plain wrong Auxin, war can be a valuable tool to reduce suffering, sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind!

Well of course I was being simplistic. I wasnt writing a grand dissertation on the delicate interplay of moral considerations and international wartime politics. Despite my efforts to focus my hippie love vibes to a single point in order to light a peace candle on Gandhis birthday I have never been convinced that helping to drive the Nazis out of occupied territories in world war 2 was a bad thing, for example. But that was (perhaps) one of the exceptions, not the rule and I stand by my simplified proclamation that I view willful participation in wars of agression or most any organized mass-killing is quite universally a shitty thing.

So I say again, Hippie peacenick shit is a good general policy man

[Legba]

I'd come out of hiding if Vanuatu was invading. Be good to have kava legal again. It get's alot easier finding recruits once the shit goes down. Anger and patriotism are powerful tools at these times.

SMILE EMPTY SOUL LYRICS

This Is War

i'm just a normal man

i wouldn't hurt nothing at all

but here we are

our leaders have a plan

i'd only kill if it's for them

now here we are

i drove in a car and flew in a plane

to come to your house and kick your door in

now it's down to this, it's just you and me

i'll blow your fucking head off for my country

i go to church and tithe

i go to work in a suit and tie

but this is war

i'm really not sure why

but the tv says that you are wrong

now here we are

my feet hurt from the sand

but still i march on gun in hand

cause this is war

this isn't what i planned

i wanted to be so much more

but this is war

[baphomet]

Okies...

Every county's army has plenty of guns to go round. (Not that they would pass them out but you'll see where i'm going) So as far as saying everyone should have guns to protect the country goes...well I think that idea sort've...well doesn't work, how many people get shot in the US every day...lots. And ummm...how many military weapons do they have...probably more than any other country in the world...so, how many civilian weapons do they need...none, and as such what benifit is there from having heaps of civilian weapons around, well lets sum up: lots of people killing each other, no improvement to national security, in fact probably a decrease in national security because criminals have the same guns as the cops, if not often better, and the 'big bad' terrorists could get them too (look out, one might be under your bed! [flashes back to communist fears]). So where are the pro's? Ummm, if my homie disses me I can bust a cap in his ass? If my neighbour waters my lawn I can shoot him dead (serves hiim right the bastard), oh but wait I can protect myself and my home...against the robber who probably has a gun too? That makes perfect sense.

So yeh, I'll take my chances with the invasion and keep the gun control.

(Sorry if you were being sarcastic, wouldn't i look like an idiot...wouldn't be the first time lately I'd totally missed some sarcasm though so...)

No man, no sarcasm there, I'm deadly serious!! I have had this discussion before on this forum so I don't want to go into great detail about this but let me just say that when I was young I used to be all for gun control and would argue with my father who was against it, I thought he must have been a heartless monster but I soon realised that my view was extremely naive and not very well thought out which was the opposite of what I thought at the time, I was convinced that I knew best but I know now that it was not the case.

Fact is that my father fought with The Royal Fleet Auxiliary in WW2 and knew far more about the issue than I did, he was also aware of the real agenda of those promoting gun control which at the time seemed to me to be paranoid delusion but I now realise it was anything but!

Your example of gun control in America is a very bad one and is one I have heard many times before, I even used to use it myself (yes I have seen 'Bowling for Columbine' too). It says more about social issues in America than it does about gun control, look at other countries where guns are legal and compare the statistics . One must also keep in mind that there is strong evidence to suggest that someone (perhaps the government) purposely drop crates of guns off trains in the middle of very violent areas, and for what aim?

The right to bear arms was written into the US constitution for a very good reason, to protect its citizens from an outside threat and FROM A TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT which they knew would be only a matter of time. They also tried to make it as difficult as possible for such people to take the right to bear arms away from the people which is always the first step of a tyrannical government. The people behind Bush for example have found many ways to get around the constitution and make it virtually obsolete, you may say now that they still have the right to bear arms but what rights do they have when their government declares a 'state of emergency'? Ever heard of martial law?? Wanna see footage of old ladies being beaten senseless by soldiers during Hurricane Katrina just cause they own a firearm?? What about when (not if) they declare a permanent state of emergency? Do you think the people will have any civil liberties left?

So my question to you would be.. do you really think you know better than the founders of the United States? Do you really know anything about war and the true meaning of the word 'horror'?? What do you know about the power structure of this complex world that you live in? What was the first thing the Nazis or any other fascist tyrants did when they wanted to seize power? What were the necessary steps that preceded almost every genocide in history (The holocaust, Rwanda, etc, etc)?

Here is an interesting documentary by 'Jews against gun control' I think you should watch it before continuing on with this debate? http://btjunkie.org/torrent/Innocents-Betr...80329227fcf748f

You can find a short preview of it here: http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=I...l=en&emb=0#

"how many people get shot in the US every day...lots"

Sorry man but the fact is that far more people have died as a result of gun control than from gun related crimes!

"Every county's army has plenty of guns to go round"

No they don't and guns need people to operate them!

"what benifit is there from having heaps of civilian weapons around"

Freedom from tyranny, foreign occupiers and far less risk of genocide!

"no improvement to national security"

Sorry, wrong again! The reason why the US and its allies can't win in Iraq for example is that 75% of the people own a kalashnikoff, knowing this I realised long before it started that they could not win this war and was laughed at by several of my friends and family members, I now laugh at them and regularly remind them of the evident truth of the matter even though the reality of it is not really all that funny! How many examples do you want to prove that your statement is wrong?? I can think of many!

You all seem to be talking about joining some kind of rebel group in the event of war.. you're living in a fucking fairy tale!! At least in the US they have groups like Montana Militia who are armed and ready to defend their country and stand up to their government, what are you guys going to do in the event of war? Meet on the beach in Byron and discuss how you intend on delivering your payload of boiling hot chai on the enemy? Hit them with your twirly whirly fire sticks??

"Of course, how obvious, the secret to stopping animal cruelty is to kill thousands/millions of people"

Yes!!! Have you got a better idea? 'Fraid hippy love hasn't done much to help the situation so far!

"many probably innocent"

Who defines innocent? That's subjective! IMO inaction makes people almost as guilty as those doing it! Some 'innocent' people die in every armed conflict but innocent suffering can be reduced on the whole, that is most important! I would hope those with an expanded state of consciousness like many people here would be able to see the big picture.

Edited August 28, 2008 by baphomet

[watertrade]

****Would you fight for Australia in someone else’s war like Vietnam or Iraq****

I've had a think about this and now with some more thought think I would fight in someone else’s war.... (But not Vietnam or Iraq)

I feel as if 'I' (Australia) have a responsibility as a rich privileged country to stand up for people who can't stand up for themselves - for the greater good - something like... - all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing... etc etc

Bad hypothetical example - some big evil country invades a smaller country that is not able to defend itself. What do we do? Stand back and say it’s not our problem?

Complex stuff!

[watertrade]

oh.. BTW Russia has just successfully tested an intercontinental ballistic missile designed to overcome anti-missile systems.

The US is going to be pissed. !

[shruman]

I voted no, violence only begets violence. I would'nt want to have to shoot someone or worse, ever. I can't imagine the psychological turmoil u'd have to go through knowing u took someones life & I think I could only do so defending my family, I do'nt even know if I could justify defending my own life. But realy in the heat of it who the fuck knows what they would do. I remember seeing a doco & they were saying that in the heat of battle only a small percent fire & then only a few of those fire at another person & even fewer again fire at a person with the intent to kill & most of the actual killing is done by only a few people in a platoon. The science of killing, I think it was called.

I voted run & hide cause it was the best option but I'd hope to have the courage to peaceful protest .

Edited August 28, 2008 by shruman

[baphomet]

Maybe you should change your signature then? You wouldn't want to seem like a hypocrite would you?

Edited August 28, 2008 by baphomet

[husk]

i would always run and hide for that is more real a freedom then staying to fight and taking someone elses, or dying in servitude.

Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime. ~Ernest Hemingway

peace x

Edited August 28, 2008 by husk

[baphomet]

Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime. ~Ernest Hemingway

Yea right.. Earnest Hemingway was a vile disgusting man who promoted cruelty to animals, I would gladly wage war to rid the world of people like him!

i would always run and hide for that is more real a freedom then staying to fight and taking someone elses, or dying in servitude.

There's a word for that, its called cowardice! I have convictions so strong that I live for them and would gladly die for them, in fact I have no higher aspiration than this. I believe that we should aim to minimise innocent suffering in the world as much as possible both human and non human and would gladly kill to do this. I can assure you I would feel nothing of the "psychological turmoil" that shruman speaks of. If you do not have such beliefs then I pity you because to me your life is largely inconsequential and meaningless and I think you will come to realise this before it is over. I would rather die for something than live for nothing. I will raise my children to think the same way!