Growing "Peyote" and "False Peyotes" from Seed

[mark80]

Tripatimnes I have known and loved by sasha shlugin contains lists about 160 cacti's alkaloides. This is porbably the best bet, look up the alkoilodes of all cacti then look to see which ones are psychoactive or take a biochemistery/neurobilogy/nerology/pharmacology/neuropharmacology degree and see if you can work out which ones would be active - I reckon if you relaly want to discover new enthenogenis without having to bioessay all of them that is probably the best bet. If that doesn't sound appealing then look up the alkoilds and see if you can find refrence to thier psychoactivity, or sturctures that are related with a known activity, there porbably most likley to be active as well.

Interstingly enough strombocactus diciformis isn't mentioned.

A freind has eatern an astrophytum asterias without any effects. it was seed grown around 3 cm.

edit- or crude extractions on all the cacti fed to mice in lab conditions could be another way. However you would need to do lots of different extractions for different compunds to make sure you don't miss any of the actives. This would at the very least help determine toxcitiy.

Edited January 8, 2008 by mark80

[The Dude]

Haha this thread is classic!

Teotz, I must say that list of all those random cacti and the cut n paste info seemed like a shallow attempt to prove your 1337ist knowledge and build up some kinda ethno forum cred. Now I see it for what it is a compilation of a shitload of information I can't be arsed reading through. Everyone complains but the easiest bit of advice is, don't read it! no1's holding a gun to your head, on that note, I won't winge about that. Phosphene already done it for me.

What the thread later truned into with some kinda uber-1337ist dont grow cacti to get high attitude, was FARK-ing hillarious man. Classic example of projecting your own shit onto somebody else, when clearly this fella doesn't even intend to consume you keep reading your own shit in it... this aint directed at anyone...

I actually wanted to do the whole breaking down of post and pinpointing all the fuckups, as is such a cool and smart and awesome and tediously fucking boring way to bring someone down about their faults. thank fucking god it's all been resolved. I hope this thread can continue in it's intended manner.

I think most of us hippies (c'mon admit it fuckers!) come here with the best intentions, and people projecting their own paranoid fears need to resolve their own shit, or stop smoking meth. I speak for myself as much as anyone else, what people are saying and what you're hearing has a fuckload to do with personal projection.

this is all a coverup so i can lure you to send me your home addresses...

[apothecary]

Hey recondite, I assumed you were from the nook and a quick check confirmed that. I expected you to at least be some positive contributor though, to come here and expect us to give a crap about your opinion.

Maybe you should wait to hit the fifty post mark before telling us who we are allowed to help or not. In regards to our supposed ignorance of 'other forums', don't worry, I'm a veteran nooker, and will be happy to use my member account to let the Doc and Mal know about your behaviour here.

As for the possible consequences of offering help on cultivation of legal (even in the US) cacti to an alleged "NBC planted planthead" well fuck me mate, I'm sure you're concerned for us, but we have much bigger fish in our pond to worry about and they're wearing uniforms.

Of course they've had about as much success as an NBC report would, mainly because we know the law and our research is LEGAL. This isn't the nook where the main topic of conversation is the extraction of Mimosa bark which you ordered off the net.

[gilligan]

this is all a coverup so i can lure you to send me your home addresses...

and i have yours El D... i'm watching you now...

so stop playing with my fucking head you fuckers. I can hear the whine of your mind ray guns powering up, and i aint gonna let you win. That's RIGHT! I'M WEARING MY TINFOIL HAT RIGHT NOW YOU FUCKING FBI/CIB/CIA/men in black suits - LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE

Whoah. That was intense!

I think i'll just go back to nibbling on this trich (which i only grow to look at cos they're so pretty).

[kadakuda]

....ok...???

anyway i have read that it is possible to root grafted aztekium...hard for sure, i have yet to get one to root....but it has apparently been done. check out BCSS for information....may also want to look into A. hintonii as some people have had success degrafting them as well i, however, have killed more than i wish to admit trying to get them to root.....

[Teotzlcoatl]

I would love to know how...

It's really hard to find one on it's own roots for sale, anywhere...

If anybody has rooted Aztekium please speak up.

Tripatimnes I have known and loved by sasha shlugin contains lists about 160 cacti's alkaloides. This is porbably the best bet, look up the alkoilodes of all cacti then look to see which ones are psychoactive or take a biochemistery/neurobilogy/nerology/pharmacology/neuropharmacology degree and see if you can work out which ones would be active - I reckon if you relaly want to discover new enthenogenis without having to bioessay all of them that is probably the best bet. If that doesn't sound appealing then look up the alkoilds and see if you can find refrence to thier psychoactivity, or sturctures that are related with a known activity, there porbably most likley to be active as well.

Excellent idea Mark.

A freind has eatern an astrophytum asterias without any effects.

I think we have enough info about this "peyote" to list is as a "False Peyote" only resembling Lophophora in appearace and not psychoactive or medicinal use.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Teotz'

[mark80]

I think we have enough info about this "peyote" to list is as a "False Peyote" only resembling Lophophora in appearace and not psychoactive or medicinal use.

Psychoactive porbably not but its medcinial use shouldn't be underestimated. After all panadol doesn't ellict a psychoactive repsonse (in me anyway ) but its medicinal use is defintaly there.

I amd efinatly not syaing it medicinal but it maybe, i don't think we should lump in medicianl with psychoactive.

[Teotzlcoatl]

i don't think we should lump in medicianl with psychoactive.

No and I certainly don't, Here's how I catagorize "Peyotes" for this project. (As seen in my very first post)

"Peyote"-This is THE Peyote, and the only accepted Peyote of our modern culture.

Lophophora williamsii

"Lost Peyotes"- Truly Psychoactive Peyotes not currently accepted by our modern culture.

(Suspects)

Ariocarpus fissuratus

Ariocarpus kotschoubeyanus

Coryphantha species

Lophophora diffusa

Mammillaria species

Pelecyphora strobiliformis

Strombocactus disciformis

Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele

Turbinicarpus pseudopectinatus

"Medicinal Peyotes"- Peyote with Medicinal, but not Psychoactive properties.

(Suspect)

Epithelantha micromeris

"False Peyotes"- Peyotes which only resemble Lophophora in appearce, but do not have Psychoactive or Medicinal properties.

(Suspects)

Astrophytum asterias

Aztekium ritteri

Obregonia denegrii

Edited January 8, 2008 by Teotz'

[mark80]

Obregona dengrii

4-hydroxy-PEA

4-hydroxy-N-Methyl-pea

4-hydroxy-N,N-diMethyl-pea

Now you can find if there is anything in the literutre to support this being medicinal or psycohactive. I still disagree with blind stabbing, a project this big and lengthy needs to be done methodically. So i reckon if your serious about putting in the hard yards for this porject than it needs to be done methocially. I sya start at your local university library in the biochmeistry journals.

[Teotzlcoatl]

I'm young and I have my whole life to complete this task.

I had better get started tho, I've only got like 60 years left.

What an interesting quest I am about to embark on...

I do have one question for everyone- Why does nobody do any field work in Mexico?

Are the tribes gone? Has cactus fell out of usage among the natives?

[XipeTotec]

these are difficult classifications, as psychoactive cacti ie. loph williamsii also have established medicinal used which are unrelated to their psychoactive effects. should Selenicereus grandiflorus be added to the medicinal list, as it has shown some medical effectiveness in treatment of heart conditions?

[Ace]

In the 'lost' peyotes, I'd definately list both ario. confusus and retusus. Both have had mention of being used (and feared) within the native mexican cultures as an alternative to loph. williamsii, but most fear it due to it being incredibly 'dark' and frightening. Definately sounds like psychoactivity to me, or at least going off online documentation. There is plenty of info on the net - I'll see if I can spot anything in my daily searching, but it might be worth doing a bit of a look yourself. I know there is a common name for it, but it escapes me for now. I'll post it if I can find it again.

Also, L. diffusa contains a high concentration of pellotine. I'm not sure what effects pellotine have, but I think that it could very well have a use in medicine and possibly even as a psychoactive alkaloid (perhaps in much higher concentrations than is needed with mescaline). Definately one that should be looked into further IMO.

Why does nobody do any field work in Mexico?

I'd do it if I didnt have a pretty busy life here. And if I had lots of cash to actually do some worthwhile research. The thing is that a lot of amateurs (like myself) would love to, but most can't due to lifestyle restrictions and financial concerns. Especially since it would cost a small fortune just on a plain ticket over there. People in the US would be much better suited to such an expedition, simply due to the close proximity with Mexico. Never the less, if I ever have a few months available to take off on recreational leave, and a few bucks in the bank, I'd love to go trekking through mexico and even down thru peru and a few other south american countries.

I think you'll find that there are people conducting field research on cacti throughout Mexico, but a lot of their work is hard to find online. Some can be found via google, others may be found if you search in all the right places. But this is usually conservation work, moreso than finding psychoactive cacti species, or at least from what I've found.

[mark80]

I believe to make new discoveries, most of the time, you need a througher understanding of all the stuff before you. People don't walk into a lab wanting to cure cancer without knowleldge of most of pathophysiology and techniques that are being used.

You do have your whole life ahead of you, but you seemed to really keen to make these discoveries, so i thought you would like to start now.

[tonic]

I know there is a common name for it, but it escapes me for now. I'll post it if I can find it again.

"Chaute" or "Chautle", these names are also associated with other Ariocarpus spp., also "Tsuwiri" is commonly used for Ariocarpus retusus

[Ace]

Thanks phosphene - those are the names I was trying to think of! Perhaps these terms (or common names) could assist in finding more info, Teotz?

[tonic]

No worries Ace. Thought I should add something constructive to this thread.

Here is some other info:

pellotine(′pelə′tēn)

(organic chemistry) C13H19O3N A colorless, crystalline alkaloid, derived from the dried cactus pellote, Lophophora williamsi (Mexico), slightly soluble in water; used as a hypnotic.

A tetrahydroisoquinoline alkaloid (1,2-dimethoxy-8-hydroxy-1,2,3,4-tetrahydroisoquinoline) found in the Lophophora and Pelechyphora species.

Isolated Chemicals in Lophophora williamsii: Anhalonine, Hordenine, Mescaline, N-Acetylmescaline, N-Methylmescaline, Pellotine, Tyramine

A couple of links:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3989476

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztekium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lophophora

Hopefully of use, I must say these tidbits of info are obviously along the lines of the research you claim to be doing, they were easily obtainable online and off and is the type of info you should be digging up. I suggest you start searching around if you want to unearth anything of true value and worth. I have given you a start on some of the alkaloids etc. I feel it is relevant information, though only the tip of the iceberg. Get searching and researching. Build a decent grow room, buy some seeds or mature cacti and start propagating, while you are waiting for these amazing, but incredibly slow growing plants to grow, you can be researching the relevant information. It will be a very long time before any of these sacraments can be experimented with if implementing only natural growth techniques. So it will be wise to start RIGHT NOW on growing them and finding out about all the information that has been made available since humans started researching the chemistry of these plants. Obviously the indigenous peoples have done a lot of work with them aswell. You have a lot of work ahead of you.

[Teotzlcoatl]

So it will be wise to start RIGHT NOW on growing them and finding out about all the information that has been made available since humans started researching the chemistry of these plants.

Your right!

I'll do some research and post it when I have chance.

I'll also begin cultivation.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Trucha might tell us all something about 3 psychoactive cacti...

maybe.

[Teotzlcoatl]

These are my cacti-

[Ace]

Beautiful fissuratus. Always been a fan of them ones

[plainswalker]

Nice to see this thread back on track. I have been wondering about the pollination of many cacti species and if species are self-fertile or self-sterile. Anyone have any info on any species and whether or not it can produce seeds by itself? I am specifically interested at the moment about ariocarpus (fissuratus, retusus, trigonus) and Obregonia denegrii but any info on any small cacti species is appreciated.

[mark80]

Nice to see this thread back on track. I have been wondering about the pollination of many cacti species and if species are self-fertile or self-sterile. Anyone have any info on any species and whether or not it can produce seeds by itself? I am specifically interested at the moment about ariocarpus (fissuratus, retusus, trigonus) and Obregonia denegrii but any info on any small cacti species is appreciated.

as far as i know, ariocarpus, astrophytum and obergonia arn't self fertile, lopphophora and turbinicaprus are self fertile, as well as fralea spp.

[Ace]

In regards to self fertility of the lophophorae, I believe only L. williamsii has this trait. From memory, the others need to be crossed (either within their own classifications [e.g. fricii X fricii] or among each [e.g. koehresii X diffusa]). I believe they can all cross among each other to some extent, but some are less suseptible to a positive fertilisation (or just more reluctant). I believe older specimens would be the best to try crosses and self fertilisations, as younger specimens seem to be somewhat less reluctant to set seed.

It should also be noted for your 'project' that younger specimens tend to produce far fewer seeds than older ones, and may also flower less frequently (and in fewer numbers). That said, I have a grafted loph (unknown X - said to be williamsii EDIT: seen in this thread) that has been flowering very regularly (one after another - about 5 blooms in the last 2 months) and now one of the pups is budding. I also believe the longer tufts formed on the areoles also begin to grow in length once the specimen hits flowering age (i.e. all immature areoles tend to have a tiny 'dot' of fluff, whereas areoles that have put out a bloom tend to have much longer fluff). The length of areole fluff might hint towards giving better estimations on how old a specimen may be, or how long it has been flowering (maturity). Not really necessary info, but interesting observations from my experience.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Ace

[kadakuda]

i have had zero luck pollinating male koehresii to female fricii, but fricii pollen to koehresii works liek a charm!

in my attempts straight williamsii is the only self fertile one, others like koehresii, diffusa, fricii etc are self sterile....in my toying anyway.

others like astrophytum have been self sterile for me as well.

[M S Smith]

L. fricii has often been thought to be a closer relative to L. diffusa than to L. williamsii due to pellotine to mescaline concentrations reported by Habermann, but I'm not sure Habermann presented any documentation regarding the L. fricii he tested and if it was properly identified. Pellotine to mescaline in properly identified L. koehresii show that it is closer to L. diffusa. That L. fricii can pollinate L. koehresii, but not the other way around, is similar to findings that L. williamsii can pollinate L. diffusa, but not the other way around. From this, as well as other features, I have always thought that L. fricii is a subspecies of L. williamsii and that Habermann misidentified an L. diffusa form as L. fricii in his test.

That properly identified L. fricii, like L. diffusa and L. koehresii, is not self-fertile doesn't necessarily point towards a closer relation to L. diffusa forms over L. williamsii, only that it has had some division long enough from L. williamsii to either lose self-fertility, or that L. williamsii has been divided long enough from L. fricii to develope self-fertility.

~Michael~

Edited January 20, 2008 by M S Smith