Ice junkies

[DocAzz]

Until last night, I always thought this hype about Ice was a load of bollocks. Well, not complete shite - but certainly over-exagerated.

A foaf of mine smokes it infrequently (once every month or two) and its his only means of meth usage. He much prefers it over speed, due to the fact he's sick of shoving unknown shit up his nose... there isn't a great deal 'rock' can be cutdown with, so its relatively unadulterated. Its more a purity concern than anything else - but he was always careful to measure out dosages, and never go more than one night without sleep.

So I based my opinion of the drug on the foafs experiences. To top this off, I hear its a bit cost-prohibitive for someone to smoke constantly!

Last night... wow.

One close friend had turned up at a party, with his missus, and they were still charging from the night before.

Immediately they hit the bathroom to finish off what they had left, and found out the host of the party had a little stashed away. They were given a point for free, which dissapeared shortly afterwards. "Can we get some more?" was met with a solid "no - its we're saving the rest for next weekend."

Not long after the friend came out and said "'Aaron isn't feeling too well, he wanted to get a little to perk up." The host obliged and little more was given. Aaron, the next morning said he knew nothing of this - he doesn't even smoke weed.

The during the early hours of the morning, these two were found inside the hosts bedroom "having a chat" in the walk-in wardrobe... where the ice was kept. They left within 2 minutes after this, and oddly enough, the ice could no longer be found.

I was so shocked to see that one of my dearest friends is on the steep descent down to becoming an ice-junky.

No one was surprised with his missus, she is that sort of bitch anyway.

My foaf, the hosts, and a few other people use Ice, but only in the manner I described above. They could not fathom how people can turn that bad, when they use it themselves and have no problem. One couple owns two houses, a restaurant, a bar and both work full-time on top of all that, and it was beyond them! I guess the point is either not touching the shit at all, or atleast keeping checks on yourself - like no more than once a month, never have more than one night without sleep, etc etc.

Does anyone else have friends travelling down this path???

Is there any hope?? He's always had problems with addiction, but it was only ever alcohol and speed he was hooked on before... now he's on ice, he's completely different. I have this close friend coming around during the week (sans bitch) but I have no idea how to help him out. Had it been ANYONE else, this friend would just get cut-off for stealing from the party hosts, but there is too much love and history. I went to uni with him starting in 2000, then met the rest of his close-knit family... and I've now been dating his cousin for three years!!

The singer of Grinspoon is going into rehab for Ice now too....

Thanks for reading,

Azz

[Green Osiris]

I have a 'friend' who claims he's in control of it all, but uses very often. He justifies his addiction by the fact that he can still go to work (on Ice) and can pay the rent on his inner-city apartment. However he doesn't eat, cos he can't afford to. Not addicted, apparently.

I've walked away.

[mesq]

Hmmm sorry to hear about your friend

Firstly I thought I would add that I have heard of cooks cutting Crystal Meth with Methyl Sulfonyl?? Apparently cos it doesn't cause discolouration when it burns and doesn't have a taste?? Makes me wonder if there are any people out there with sulfur allergies having a hard time on meth.

Speed/meth/ice abuse is a terrible thing for sure... I have had a problem with amphetamines in the past. At first I was using IV base and then as I developed better connections I began Injecting Crystal as well. At the same time as I was using IV, I was also a social Meth Smoker and so I also got addicted to Crystal in this way. At the worst point of my usage I would inject 2-3 points of crystal and then "chase it" by smoking an extra point. Almost everyday.

When I quickly realised that I was slowly distancing myself from friends and also that everybody was beginning to notice that I had a distinct problem, I decided that it was time to act and booked myself in for a 10 Day Vipassana meditation at Pomona on the sunshine coast. Going into the centre coming off a meth addiction, as well as addictions to pot and cigarettes was difficult but after completing the 10 days. I was able to refrain from pot smoking and cigarettes for a couple of months before deciding I still liked them and I haven't used Ice or Meth since then.

BUT, it's not THAT easy.

I still get cravings for IV on and off and still think about it once in a while... I know alot of friends I have who are otherwise respectable people, (doctors, nurses, lawyers, social workers etc) but also have this past virus attempting to eat them and making them think about meth.....

Once you are addicted it's a hard slog.

[Torsten]

I've had several friends who got addicted to meth and my view of meth/ice has changed dramatically over the last few years. I used it for several years as a 100mg once a week basis and never got any major cravings for it or got to a point where I couldn't walk away from it. That's why I thought it was relatively harmless. Besides he fact that i think even such small doses have done some major damage to my GABA and adrenal systems, I have seen most other meth users spiral out of control very quickly. And when it does spiral out of control then it really fucks lives up very quickly.

As for helping meth addicts, I tried it a few times, but was only successful once. I don't think it is actually possible to help in most cases. I think when it gets to daily use it is too late. A large part of the problem is as metnioned above that the classical definition of an addict gets obscured by the fact that ice addicts can hold down jobs and keep their life together for quite a while into their addiction. In fact, most ice addicts in the early stages take ice because it makes them so much more productive, succesfull and sociable. But all this extra productivity, success and social life is borrowed from the future and it will catch up eventually. Usually rather soon.

I've got 4 friends who are ex meth/ice addicts where I walked away at the time. I think anyone who gets into meth these days knows the dangers and they need to take responsibility for their actions. So, I have no problem walking away from anyone who decides to do meth. Most of the time if you stay friends they just rip you off and eventually end the friendship anyway. I found it is much better to cut ties early and then be there for them when they are ready to stop their addiction.... ie AFTER they have actually stopped.

The anxiety disorders, paranoia, lack of social confidence and various other problems that result from meth/ice use can make it very difficult for an ex addict to find their place again. As I said, they borrowed all of these things from their own future. So, this is the time they need their friends andd family most, but chances are the only friends they have left are their ice buddies.

What i find scary is the amount of damage that can be done in a short time. heroin users generally need years for their lives to fall apart, while many ice users are at the end of the line within a few months. The ex ice users I mentioned above were all addicted for less than 2 years, one of them only for 6 months. yet the damage this has done to their brainchemistry is astounding. And none of them feel that it was worth it in any way shape or form. I think if ice users had a better idea of just how much damage the stuff causes and how quickly it does so, most probably would not touch the stuff. I think we are not just heading into a serious meth/ice epidemic, but I think we are also looking at a generation of seriously fucked up individuals as these users get older. I think the casualties wil be the greater epidemic, especially since they don't go away. ie most ex ice users who fried their brains do not get their problems fixed even after years of treatment.

[XipeTotec]

What i find scary is the amount of damage that can be done in a short time. heroin users generally need years for their lives to fall apart, while many ice users are at the end of the line within a few months.

I must say torsten... I have seen people spiral into a bad place with heroin pretty quickly.

[BlackDragon]

I think we are not just heading into a serious meth/ice epidemic, but I think we are also looking at a generation of seriously fucked up individuals as these users get older.

Yeah, 5 years ago people laughed at me when i said this... even today people just dont grasp the damage it does.

[AndyAmine.]

You do a good job of covering it Torsten.

IME the majority of addicts need to hit rock bottom before they are ready to help them selfs, and belive me, its a looooong way down to the bottom of the barrel and there are many flase floors but when your there your ideas about your habbit start to change and thats when a friend/family/treatment can really make an impact.

I used cut meth/speed on and off for many years with minimal problems it wasnt until I started heavy binging and staying up for a week or more at a time that the damage really took effect.

That was only possible because I had access to an endless supply and the binges could only be continued on the last sevral days using really strong gear or copious ammounts.. I remember shooting 14 grams of power in a 60ml fit/butterly clip jst to get my buzz on..... not many people had that kind of determination, supply or staying power.. LOL...

Now that pure/ice is more readily available its a lot easier for people to get into that binging state and to stay up for way to long and IMO I think thats where the most damage is done..

They have proven memories are solidified far deeper when there is lots of andrenal activity, so no wonder ex-amphetamine addicts are haunted by thier paranoia and passed issues, they have amphetamine induced PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder)....

All this said, I used to have the least trouble when taking glass/ice (uncut pure), it was shooting countless oz's of badly made peanutbutter/catspiss/ph-incorrect-yellow-or-pink gear and the cut (usualy cut from 7/1 -14/1) that gave me the worst side effects and also made me stay up the longest only compounding the paranoia and malnutrition.

At least wiht Ice you havefar less problems with heart valve/vein/brain/liver damage, bacterial infections/septicemia, lung infections/pneumonia and the list goes on (usualy cut with a mixture pseudo/caffine/dexies/Epsom Salts/MSM/Glucose/whateverthefuck)

At least with ice you largly know what your taking..

Incidently, I.V'ing MDMA was the other main contributor to my damaged state.

I've had several friends who got addicted to meth and my view of meth/ice has changed dramatically over the last few years. I used it for several years as a 100mg once a week basis and never got any major cravings for it or got to a point where I couldn't walk away from it. That's why I thought it was relatively harmless. Besides he fact that i think even such small doses have done some major damage to my GABA and adrenal systems, I have seen most other meth users spiral out of control very quickly. And when it does spiral out of control then it really fucks lives up very quickly.

As for helping meth addicts, I tried it a few times, but was only successful once. I don't think it is actually possible to help in most cases. I think when it gets to daily use it is too late. A large part of the problem is as metnioned above that the classical definition of an addict gets obscured by the fact that ice addicts can hold down jobs and keep their life together for quite a while into their addiction. In fact, most ice addicts in the early stages take ice because it makes them so much more productive, succesfull and sociable. But all this extra productivity, success and social life is borrowed from the future and it will catch up eventually. Usually rather soon.

I've got 4 friends who are ex meth/ice addicts where I walked away at the time. I think anyone who gets into meth these days knows the dangers and they need to take responsibility for their actions. So, I have no problem walking away from anyone who decides to do meth. Most of the time if you stay friends they just rip you off and eventually end the friendship anyway. I found it is much better to cut ties early and then be there for them when they are ready to stop their addiction.... ie AFTER they have actually stopped.

The anxiety disorders, paranoia, lack of social confidence and various other problems that result from meth/ice use can make it very difficult for an ex addict to find their place again. As I said, they borrowed all of these things from their own future. So, this is the time they need their friends andd family most, but chances are the only friends they have left are their ice buddies.

What i find scary is the amount of damage that can be done in a short time. heroin users generally need years for their lives to fall apart, while many ice users are at the end of the line within a few months. The ex ice users I mentioned above were all addicted for less than 2 years, one of them only for 6 months. yet the damage this has done to their brainchemistry is astounding. And none of them feel that it was worth it in any way shape or form. I think if ice users had a better idea of just how much damage the stuff causes and how quickly it does so, most probably would not touch the stuff. I think we are not just heading into a serious meth/ice epidemic, but I think we are also looking at a generation of seriously fucked up individuals as these users get older. I think the casualties wil be the greater epidemic, especially since they don't go away. ie most ex ice users who fried their brains do not get their problems fixed even after years of treatment.

Edited February 19, 2007 by AndyAmine.

[Jesus On Peyote]

GO way to walk away from your friend who probebly is going to need your help an support soon.

[Dodie]

JOP Ever tried talking about ice addiction to an addict? Like teaching a gold fish the alphabet..

I've had friends almost become full on addicts, luckily it only really got to full time use on weekends, sometimes at work during the week too. I'd always comment and tell them why ice was shit. Did they listen? No. It took them months to even stop offering me some..

They figured it out after long enough that it wasn't going great.. Most of them only ever take it on a "needed" occasion ie : BDO, parties etc..

[shruman]

From my experience walking away is the only option left to someone who has been totaly used & abused from the illness this incideous drug causes addicts.

Has anyone ever seen someone O.D on ice its fucking scary. I saw my sisters boyfriends dealer O.D, He lived diagonaly across the alley in his sons house at the time & we could hear heavy breathing so we went outside, to see 4 cop cars out the front of his house so we went down the alley & saw him hunched over on there porch with 2 of his sons trying to calm him down about 10 jacks his doctor & a psychologist, He had really laboured breathing actualy stoped once & his son belted him on the back to make him breathe, couldnt stand up, was telling the cops to fuck off or just kill him, was extremely paranoid thought his own sons were trying to kill him, wouldnt drink water cause it was "poisoned" until his son got him a glass from a neighbours tap at his demand, this lasted bout 1.5 hrs by the end every cop from my town was there & 3 cars form a town 70 km away luckily his doc talked sense into him & the cops took him to hospital. IT WAS A FUCKING NIGHTMARE.

His son a friend of mine a grown man who only smokes cannabis totaly broke down and was crying on my sholder & telling the cops to just get him to fucking hospital.

This drug causes addicts to totally use & abuse family & friends until they have nothing left to give & the only option is to walk away.

[apothecary]

There is really nothing they can do for a meth overdose at the hospital though, is there?

[shruman]

They can probly revive him if he dies other than this im unsure.

Apparently he was getting injections from his doc to stop the cravings, apparently a probation condition is this possible?

He had recently been released after holding a siege at a petrol station & lighting himself & his car on fire while on a meth binge, getting badly burnt in the process.

[incognito]

i believe phil jamieson from grinspoon has just been admitted to a withdrawal clinic after an intervention by his family to get of ice.

amphetamines are yuk.(for me)

one day i will read the whole post first!jackass!

Edited February 19, 2007 by jono

[oxydiser]

There is really nothing they can do for a meth overdose at the hospital though, is there?

I'm doing my rotations at the major hospitals at the moment. 3 weeks ago the case I studied was a dude in his 30s who tried to commit suicide by ingesting 60 MDMA tablets. Standard treatment for amphetamine overdose is immediate sedation with IV midazolam and subsequent intubation for a day while the junk gets out of their system, followed by withdrawal with more benzos.

[Μορφέας]

farout!

Did he have a good peak at least? I wonder if taking 60 MDMA tablets would make the limiting agent in the effects the amount of serotinin in his brain.. I can only wonder at what that would feel like

YikeS!

[apothecary]

Cool oxy, good info. I remember one of the recent Aussie meth docos had a special 'meth overdose room' at one of the hospitals where the Doc said it took four or five orderlies to restrain the person and six or seven times the standard dose of whatever to sedate them?

So from such heavy benzo doses I guess the next question is, are there any withdrawals or side effects once they're released from hospital care?

[oxydiser]

Considering the amount of X this guy had taken, he wasn't really in that bad shape. Besides the severe agitation, rigors and elevated blood pressure he was relativel normal (well about as normal as a suicidal drug dealer can get). You gotta remeber that MDMA is primarily a pressor substance affecting blood pressure, heart rate, body temps etc - he would have died from heart attack/failure rather than a terminal wig-out

The midazolam is commonly used for sedation during ventilation/induction of anaesthesia, it's short half life means only acute withdrawal symptoms. After they extubate the patient, it's mainly short term diazepam for acute withdrawal symptoms (from the midazolam and amphetamines), which only causes dependence/tolerance with long term use (1-2 weeks). The thing that worried me was that they really try to push amphetamine overdose patients through the system. This is one of the short comings of the public health system, this dude had one appraisal with the resident psychologist and was discharged asap.

Speaking with one of the nurses on the emergency ward, the vast majority of amphetamine overdose patients were repeat offenders, which speaks volumes about the problems with this dirty drug and the current system.

[DocAzz]

GO way to walk away from your friend who probebly is going to need your help an support soon.

Thats a fair call JOP, but lines must be drawn. Lets look at both sides of this....

For starters, I'm the closest to family this guy has. His brother won't say or do anything, and his sister will just slap him and walk away. I'm lucky I have a great family life. I get along really well with all my brothers, and my parents. Dad shits me sometimes, but that'll happen when you work for the family business. The stresses of running a business have to be vented somewhere lol

I love this guy. He is like my 4th brother. I can't walk.

I wish he'd leave the fuckin mole he is with tho. I'd love to blame her, but I know he puts the pipe to his own lips. I know if I can get him alone for one weekend, I can keep him sober, but he has no will-power when she is around. She doesn't like just being high, she needs to be red-lining the whole time. Two weeks ago it was three points smoked, and four E's... three hours later she was bugging the guy with ADHD for his dexies. She made him drive back to his place (granted it was only the next suburb over) and he was the designated driver to get them. Then the bombshell hit "I promise I'll fix you up for them later, cos I don't have any money on me" which turned into "I should have just sucked on some chalk last night, cos those dexies were shit" the next morning.

Now, JOP, go for a walk thru any city park. You'll see alot of people that need help and support.

But you can't help all of them.

Situations have to be assessed. Its not just based on how much the person deserves it either... Its based on you, and the effect it will have on your life. If you help a mate out, and he ends up stealing from your family in the mean time then it might as well have been you that stole from them. If he ends up harming your partner, then it might aswell have been you that did it. Anything he does will be your fault while he's under your control.

If you love the person enough, then you'll do anything for them. And I will.

If it was anyone else, then I would have to seriously consider it.

[Torsten]

Azz, I think the point about walking away applies regardless of who the addict is in relation to you, EXCEPT that the point of walkig away differs. ie, if you really love that person then you must remember that the most help you will be to him is when he decides to go straight. So, if he gets to you beforehand so much that you are considering ending the friendship then it is better to walk away a few days/weeks/months earlier so that you still have enough love and compassion left to help this person when he really needs you.

obviouly this point of walking away depends entirely on how much you love that person. But NEVER fall into the trap of letting that person fuck things up for good cos you are not helping him in any way by sticking around at that point. The most important thing to keep in mind is to make sure you are there for him when he is ready to accept help.

Also don't overestimate your influence over a person. For the most part they are making quite conscious choices in the beginning and there is little you can do to change that. Not sure how I would have reacted in my younger days, but I've seen a few non-hyped docos on meth lately and I think if I would have seen them when I was doing meth I would have quit instantly. When I was doing mdma I was pretty aware of the risks, ditto for other drugs. I stayed away from smack simply because I never wanted to be addicted. But I never felt there was any danger with meth, and I think that's how most users feel. I blame the drug war for this as most of the danger hype about drugs has been lies so you assume the ones about meth are lies too.

[simon_marklar]

the thing that nearly undone me was my friends walking away. I even went to the hassle of saying "help me, i am addicted, just come over and please keep me occupied, take my mind off things" (that was so hard to say and took so much effort) people just ran away from me. so i figured, "no one cares, why should i?" even when my stash ran out and i deleted numbers and stayed clean for years people still avoid me or if they do talk to me its talking down to me. (i havnt had it for a while, and the last time i did it was a one night thing, its never more than one night and always at least 6 months apart - those are the rules of the game for me now). Its taken me years to regain some peoples trust - trust that i never broke - they just didnt like me getting high all the time - i never did anything fucked, never stole or did anything dodgey - i was just high all the time. Of course, these people pop pills every weekend, take G every day or snort speed, but just because it was ice that i was into i was barred. talk about hypocrisy

All i needed was a friend to show they cared. When your friends are at this point, do not run, give them all the support they need. Altho Torstens right - you have to walk away until they realise they need help (if they ever do)

[Kenny Blister]

Have had mates walk away from fatherhood to continue their addiction. Lost contact with them since I stopped so no idea of what they're up to today. Feel sorry for the kids.

As soon as I started IV I was the 'leper' of the group. More and more I would stop hanging out with the group, spent most days tweaking at uni away from people who knew I was high. Everyone else was probably using more drugs than me anyway, just differently. There was one mate who refused to let me cut myself off from everyone and kept a quiet eye on me, letting me tread the path I was on without giving me lectures.

I became aware of my paranoid delusions from daily use, recognised I'd reached a point I had not wanted to go beyond, and realised my appetite for self destruction was outweighed by an appetite for food and sleep. Went on some ethno-related journeys and came out of them with a renewed respect for my mind and body, which I've carried forth unto this day through diet, exercise and meditation.

When someone wants to give up, be there.

[DocAzz]

Yeh I know you're exactly right Torsten.

Its a mistake I made 5 years ago, even though it would have made no difference back then, I still should have been around.

My best mate committed suicide, in a mental hospital under suicide watch!

He was dead to me for a year though. I knew he was going to do it a year beforehand, so I got away almost out of self-preservation. I've never met anyone that took the worlds problems on their shoulders like this guy. He would tell his family not to visit him in Cumberland Hospital because there were people in there that didn't have visitors. He didn't think he deserved what he had, and that it wasn't fair he lived when so many others suffer and die around the clock.

I know he would have never made a call for help, but if he did I would have seen his number and not answered the phone.

I guess I'll just have to make sure I'm always available this time...

I've always been pretty weird with drugs. I'm even the only person my mates know that was sober on their own 18th party. I had my first drink when I was 19. I've only smoked weed twice and it was a bonding thing both times (once I was with my cousins that I hadn't seen in years, and they were all on it) and I've only ever had three e's. Those e's were only last year aswell, which again was a bonding occassion - not something I took just to go out and get high off. I just think about the drug and its effects and think "well why would I want that? I'm generally too lazy, so I don't smoke pot... and I'm pretty happy in general so pills are out too." I've never had coke for the same reason.

Yet I have always liked meth/ice/speed. The impairment of my cognitive functions was insignificant. I only started on it to keep up with all my pill-popping mates. I just started a shift-work job during uni holidays back then, and I thought "hey, I can use this at work every time I sleep like shit the night before." So I started cutting up lines in the work toilets when I'd get into work at midnight. Even when it was happening everyday, if I had no excuse on the weekend to use then I never would. Its like I was using at the level of an addict, and turned it off the instant I quit the job. This attributed to my belief that the drug was relatively harmless.

[indigo264nm]

My cousin has just made another attempt at getting off the shite... he's doing well, and the poor guy is only 17.

He was going through an 8-ball a week by the end, and there is really nothing you can do except be around and encourage when they try and give it the kick.

[Guest Warrioe-Sage]

Ice and crytal meth is really bad S H I T!!i would not hesitate to stop it's spread by any means!!if one mind is lost(self control) to this crap it is a tradgedy of unspeakable proportions.this is one of the bad ones.one use and it's over for the unlucky!?but on the lighter side.........as long as we all can get along!?what's the problem!?look ma!!a crazy person is tryin ta kill me!?relax dear,they just did an overdose.......just duck and run!?hehe!!suits me fine.......how about the rest of you!?hehe!!michael row the boat ashore.........HURRY!!no wait!!stay away from the shore!!we're SAFE out here!?WAIT read the checklist!?only the invited aboard.RIGHT!?........PHEW!!throw out the anchor and relax man!!and if ya see any FOOL swimmin too close.......get busy with the oars!?hehe!!just askin!?

[DocAzz]

Ice and crytal meth is really bad S H I T!!i would not hesitate to stop it's spread by any means!!if one mind is lost(self control) to this crap it is a tradgedy of unspeakable proportions.this is one of the bad ones.one use and it's over for the unlucky!?but on the lighter side.........as long as we all can get along!?what's the problem!?look ma!!a crazy person is tryin ta kill me!?relax dear,they just did an overdose.......just duck and run!?hehe!!suits me fine.......how about the rest of you!?hehe!!michael row the boat ashore.........HURRY!!no wait!!stay away from the shore!!we're SAFE out here!?WAIT read the checklist!?only the invited aboard.RIGHT!?........PHEW!!throw out the anchor and relax man!!and if ya see any FOOL swimmin too close.......get busy with the oars!?hehe!!just askin!?

what.

the.

fuck??