chroming

[gomaos]

"pot smoking is harmful"...

well I know a bloke who's been smoking pot for 32 years now and he can't notice any damage done...

until recently he's been smoking tobacco as well but he's given that up because he had a real bad throat infection from it...

Since he smokes pot pure he has no probs at all, except the price of pot...

[MrBumpy]

just to go back to people debating the point made of "Of course Marihuana is way less harmful than sniffing glue."

I think if you looked at the statistics of individuals admitted to emergency wards or being treated by ambos, or even who have died because of adverse experiences with the two difference substances you might find an answer (Its true I don't know any actually statistics...but I'm pretty sure there are recorded deaths for inhalent use...whereas marijuana???)

[Torsten]

gomaos - there are many people who reach a ripe 90 or more years old and chain smoke all their lives, but that does not mean tobacco is safe. Single examples are meaningless.

Mr Bumpy - I believe that MJ is less harmfull than glue, but the examples you are giving are only related to acute problems such as those that end you in an ER. Tobacco also doesnt end a lot of people in the ER, but we know just how insidious that is. Ditto for MJ, where most of the problems are those of mental illness and associated problems, which are rarely captured in meaningful statistics anyway.

[nabraxas]

The Assassins

ACROSS THE LUSTER OF the desert & into the polychrome hills, hairless & ochre violet dun & umber, at the top of a dessicate blue valley travelers find an artificial oasis, a fortified castle in saracenic style enclosing a hidden garden.

As guests of the Old Man of the Mountain Hassan-i Sabbah they climb rock-cut steps to the castle. Here the Day of Resurrection has already come & gone--those within live outside profane Time, which they hold at bay with daggers & poisons.

Behind crenellations & slit-windowed towers scholars & fedayeen wake in narrow monolithic cells. Star-maps, astrolabes, alembics & retorts, piles of open books in a shaft of morning sunlight--an unsheathed scimitar.

Each of those who enter the realm of the Imam-of-one's-own- being becomes a sultan of inverted revelation, a monarch of abrogation & apostasy. In a central chamber scalloped with light and hung with tapestried arabesques they lean on bolsters & smoke long chibouks of haschisch scented with opium & amber.

For them the hierarchy of being has compacted to a dimensionless punctum of the real--for them the chains of Law have been broken--they end their fasting with wine. For them the outside of everything is its inside, its true face shines through direct. But the garden gates are camouflaged with terrorism, mirrors, rumors of assassination, trompe l'oeil, legends.

Pomegranate, mulberry, persimmon, the erotic melancholy of cypresses, membrane-pink shirazi roses, braziers of meccan aloes & benzoin, stiff shafts of ottoman tulips, carpets spread like make-believe gardens on actual lawns--a pavilion set with a mosaic of calligrammes--a willow, a stream with watercress--a fountain crystalled underneath with geometry-- the metaphysical scandal of bathing odalisques, of wet brown cupbearers hide-&-seeking in the foliage--"water, greenery, beautiful faces."

By night Hassan-i Sabbah like a civilized wolf in a turban stretches out on a parapet above the garden & glares at the sky, conning the asterisms of heresy in the mindless cool desert air. True, in this myth some aspirant disciples may be ordered to fling themselves off the ramparts into the black--but also true that some of them will learn to fly like sorcerers.

The emblem of Alamut holds in the mind, a mandals or magic circle lost to history but embedded or imprinted in consciousness. The Old Man flits like a ghost into tents of kings & bedrooms of theologians, past all locks & guards with forgotten moslem/ninja techniques, leaves behind bad dreams, stilettos on pillows, puissant bribes.

The attar of his propaganda seeps into the criminal dreams of ontological anarchism, the heraldry of our obsessions displays the luminous black outlaw banners of the Assassins...all of them pretenders to the throne of an Imaginal Egypt, an occult space/light continuum consumed by still-unimagined liberties. -Hakim Bey.

[mr b.caapi]

big thumbs down

[nabraxas]

oops, sorry.

matthew 7,v6.

[MrBumpy]

Torsten : I know Tobacco and marijuana are not safe drugs...but...just the fact the glue sniffers end up in emergency wards after one use is gonna be a sign that it is more dangerous then other drugs such as tobacco or marijuana. which is the fact I'm trying to highlight.

Sure tobacco and marjuana can have a harmful effect that shows itself over prolonged time...BUT...anything that can kill you on the day from one use is more dangerous then anything that will give you cancer 20 years down the track

-bumpy

[Guest reville]

Pot is such a malleable ally

The subculture within which the user is introduced to it plays such a profound role on the shaping of the users expectations and their experiences, perhaps largely due to the surrounding influences.

A smoker who starts off in a culture like the North coast of NSW where the Old hippies settled and where the new agers (aged?) have bought into, might acquire the mind set that Pot is a symbol of certain ideals including peace and a form of passive rebellion to authority

A smoker in one of the religious sects of southern asia would see it in a different light, probably asociated with a rich history

associated with various divinities which can be both benevolent and malevolent eg. Shiva

But as with the Rastas, and in urban PNG (Benjamin Thomas' talk at EB1 on 'Therogens')

where the culture is Tribal, cannabis an be a unifying and peaceful element between allied individuals it doesnt make the user anymore passive. Acts of aggression and intertribal/gang aggression are no less prevalent and no less violent.

So i dont believe Pot makes any culture inherently more peaceful, rather the culture defines the use and expectations, setting the boundaries and beliefs within which the drug is taken

Butane isnt likely to be very much different. Its not going to be the drug which leads to people being more or less conformist rather the ideals that surround its use will have that effect, and like T said for the individual, i think that the subculture finds the drug when its ready, starting without it on a small scale and disjointed but then once the 'perfect' form of intoxiction s found it forms a unifying force that greatly amplifies the collective power that the culture has.

Ecstacy has been around for a long time but what would it really 'mean' without all the contributing factors like Electronic music and the rave culture?

Ayahuasca without the amazon?

Mescaline without the desert?

Beer without a Pub?

[Torsten]

I don't agree with you rev. While pot is very much a malleable drug, I don't think the same can be said for all drugs. Some drugs produce a very distinct effect that will invariable lead to a similar experience in a majority of people.

Ecstacy has been around for a long time but what would it really 'mean' without all the contributing factors like Electronic music and the rave culture?

Good example of what I am trying to say. You cannot seriously believe that MDMA could be a suitable drug for a warrior tribe.

MDMA has plenty of history that is NOT at all connected to rave. It was used long before rave for quiet, sensual sessions. Osho promoted its use in HUGE quantities in very sensual/sexual context in many countries.

Ayahuasca without the amazon?

Ther eis probably more ayahuasca consumed outside the amazon than in the amazon these days.

Mescaline without the desert?

I've never taken mescaline in the desert and yet there are plenty of similar elements between users.

I think the most interesting aspect is when you observe people who don't know what they are taking. For example, people who think they are on MDMA, but have in fact taken TMA. Their expectations clash strongly with the actual experience and the trip will NOT be like that of MDMA at all.

Most violent states arise from high adrenaline and low dopamine levels. This is the natural fight response and even if we can't fight, we will become very aggressive. Most drugs will not mask such temporary or permanent states and thus taking pot in such a state will only result in a mix of these endogenic effects and drug effects.It is only when the drug effect can completely override the endogenic effects that the endogenic effects are negated. Such is the case with MDMA in MOST cases.

[Gwydion]

"Mescaline without the desert?"

Last lot of San Pedro I saw in the wild was closer to the rainforest than the desert. And the cofán import the stuff into the oriente when need be, or so I´m led to believe.

To be honest, the desert is the last place I´d want to take mescaline. Well, almost the last place. ;-)

[This message has been edited by Gwydion (edited 27 December 2002).]

[gomaos]

MDMA has plenty of history that is NOT at all connected to rave. It was used long before rave for quiet, sensual sessions. Osho promoted its use in HUGE quantities in very sensual/sexual context in many countries.

Jeez wouldn't I just LOVE to be in bed with a beautiful woman right now, both of us on MDMA...

But what about those of us who do not have the comfort and luxury of a love or at least sexual relationship?

The good old bong is our best mate, and I feel I have to stand up for a good old friend here.

Mary Jane to me is the most beneficial of drugs, and personally i believe that the Yanks would have blown this world into smithereens already if it wasn't for good old mj...

Anyone remember the story about the pot they found in one of these lockers they lauch nuclear warheads from?

To me, the fairy tale of shiva giving cannabis to the world to stop humans from making war makes perfect sense. For most of it's users, mj has a pacifying, "down-cooling" effect.

I lived over 12 years with a person who used to have fits of hysteria and screaming frequently.

When she cooled down enough to have a smoke, she was generally "all right'.

Marihuana is like the Beatles:

Cosmic, creative, harmonious, ever-lasting...

Marihuana is like Timothy Leary who said at one stage:

"One joint per day and one lsd trip per week would be the perfect diet..."

(He had to spend years in american jails because of his attitude, but of course ha was right)

Marihuana is the perfect hallucinogenic:

Have a tea from 2 grams of afghani and find out

Marihuana is also the perfect inducer of paranoia:

If you happen to have a lot of it you should be pretty paranoid because you could end up in jail...

Why? Because it's illegal.

I recommend marihuana be fully legalized.

It's beneficial aspects completely override it's negative aspects.

The fact that even a large quantity taken of this substance, say 30 grams at once, would not kill any person, should convince anyone of the relative "harmlessness' of this herb.

Comparitively, no ther drug would hold up to this over dose test...

herion, morphine,cocaine, mdma,...

of course they will kill in overdoses.

Even lsd will so I've been told...

thc does not kill

thc is your everyday entheogen

you can't beat thc

[Darklight]

OK ill elaborate

True, Mescaline and Ayahusaca have now moved outside the desert and rainforest (With pedro its not quite a desert but in its environment its not exactly *in* the rainforest, it just happens to live in an environment with sharply contrasting ecosystems.. but thats a harder topic to cover)

The original cultures that have discovered and adopted them live in very close association with the environment they live in

The visions and meanings described by these cultures relate to a broader set of relationships within that environment which would have been formed when they moved to that area and before the drug was found

But in both cases the drug complements the culture and environment very well.

While enjoying some pedro one evening i was completely fascinated with a book on the animals of the worlds deserts, covering the deserts of many parts of the world, Australia, Central asia, sth america, north america, africa, India.

They are all very distinctive places each unique in its patterns and shapes that animals take on

The most striking thing was the differences in patterns between the deserts and the similarities across the many species that inhabit the same desert region

The North american desert animals, in particular the reptiles and insects had a striking resemblance to Mescaline induced imagery - so so much more than animals in other deserts.It was quite an amazing discovery.

The colours and patterns on the skin fit so perfectly with the geometry of what i was seeing.And it was *both* the insects and the reptiles.

So it was easy to see just how powerful a catalyst mescaline could be to a hunter gatherer or hunter/agriculturist culture in that environment

Likewise with Aya - the visions of coiling Lianas/Snakes/DNA double helix ive experienced as OEV and CEV's fit so well into a hunter/agriculturist society where lianas and snakes are common. They may be just 'wiggly lines' but combined with some expectation from study or triggerered by familar objets in reality they become transformed into crystal clear and fantastic mindscapes.

So i dont know. Would aya fit so well into a a culture from the arid lands, or mescaline into dense forest? would the meanings be as clearer or more obscure?

Now as has been said - both have moved outside their original homes and are used by new cultures - but neither have moved without some of their original associations.

Unlike LSD which was synthesised and used *before* its traditional precedent was known, these drugs are sought after in the full knowledge of their having been already used

Other drugs have been synthesised and not yet discovered in nature. And they dont seem to be used nearly as much.

Perhaps because the baseline of cultural factors that allow it to be used constructively and give the experience its value dont yet exist.

We can take a drug with history and redefine it in the neoshamanic context becuase it comes prepackaged with a little culture

I know MDMA has been used for along time and by various subcultures, but the drug didnt make Osha to begin with, the ideals surrounding that environment were already beginning to be formed before it was used, and then the drug fit the culture and synergy begins.

its started as an appetite suppressant not a love drug, and stayed that way for a long time.

So did cannabis in western culture, it was used in hash cafes, but it was also much widely used medicinally and without instantaneously creating a cannabis culture.

China is a great example of just how long this plant can sit dormant - ubiqitous but with little effect because the culture is not receptive to it. Its history amongst the chinese spans millenia, as seen by the simplicity of its Character (the older the concept in chinese culture the less complex the characters seem to be, evidence of the evolution of that written language from Hieroglyphic writing concepts to a multilayered and more abstract writing system) and yet it is mentioned in several texts that they were well aware of its intoxicating effects, they just didnt take it up.And not even because it was prohibited - it was and is grown widely and used for every other purpose

Psilocybe mushrooms are another example. Ubiquitous and abundant but rarely incorporated.

And Coca in the Andes prior to Spansh conquest and enslavement

So regardless of the actual effects of the drug, neurochemical considerations included,

if the drug doesnt fit into a pre-existing cultural framework then its value isnt going to be appreciated and its use will probably just stay confined to the fringes of society, who probably constitute a different culture anyway, one that does appreciate it and can work with it.

re

[This message has been edited by Darklight (edited 27 December 2002).]

[nabraxas]

"if the drug doesnt fit into a pre-existing cultural framework then its value isnt going to be appreciated and its use will probably just stay confined to the fringes of society, who probably constitute a different culture anyway, one that does appreciate it and can work with it"- reminds me ov somewhere.

gomaos- i heard a different story about shiva. He's meditating ontop ov holy mt.kailash, when the noise from us humans below disturbs him. he looks down & crys to see the suffering we cause ourselves. where his tears land hot springs form- like Vashisht near Manali. to get back to samahadi shiva has to smoke a chillum ov charas..most mainstream hindus would (i believe) be shocked by your story,(not to say it is not told). Mainstream india looks down on the use ov hash(10 years stat. for ANY amount- even 1 roach- NO JOKE), especially by foriegners. Especially foriegners claiming 'it's ok- cus shiva smokes'- a reply might be on the lines that shiva is a god, & we- being human, cannot judge or copy the actions ov gods. ov course a saddhu would tell you different, but i'm talking mainstream.

[gomaos]

Originally posted by twix elbert:

but stupid people start breeding at half the age of intelligent people and have twice as many kids

A Classic!

I had my first kid with 30, so I must be intelligent!

Great!

[gomaos]

Nabraxas...interesting story...

I know that most indians look down on cannabis consumption, that's because most of them are arrogant dumbfucks, well sorry I mean especially those who look down on others because of their idiot caste system.

Nevertheless Cannabis is pretty popular at parties, as Bhang, eaten.

I spend almost a year in India, and in some parts it's very much forbidden, like you say, in other parts of India you can buy opium and hashish in Government Shops.

And to compare Cannabis to breathing in fumes of poisonous chemicals, to me that's just a grave insult on the most perfect drug there is.

Why is Cannabis so popular? Because it's so superior! It's just about to topple alcohol from it's NO.1 place as most common drug in society.

In fact if it wasn't for alcohol companies, cannabis would be legal already.

It will be legal as soon as the present ruling Generation passes away (thank God).

JESSUSS I WISH I HAD SOME RIGHT NOW!!!!!!

booooooooooM SHANKAR!

PS. It's not that I'm against synthetic drugs in principle.

I do like 1,4,b, it's got very effects, and if you use it wisely, it's not harmful.

That can't be said from chroming.

I do remember that young guy in that pub in Berlin many years ago. The other ppl in the pub were getting high on dope, but this young fool kept inhaling the fumes from a little bottle in his hand-he was chroming...

Seeing him there when he was totally out of it...he didn't look happy at all, he looked retarded.

Why was he doing it?

There was the good, harmless stuff all around him, yet he had to keep committing slow suicide...why?

Was he just seeking attention?

Chroming kills!

[This message has been edited by gomaos (edited 30 December 2002).]

[toby]

As a 12 or 13 year old many years ago in a city no access to any real nature a little short of family, confused and kind of violent,

i felt myself drawn to butane? reason unknown

my first try just happened to be a full blown

crystal clear psychedelic experience {not using the term loosely}i understood reality existed as layers, learnt of a spirit world.

i tried again many times in the next few years but only broke through a couple of times, {a few years later i tried it with acid and could barely hold on} before butane i think i would have been considered at risk ,alcoholism,opiate addiction,delinquency etc.

i was pretty sure butane was on the market

for people like me , i even think it told me so, i wondered why there were so many shops selling butane when everybody used disposable lighters, avils were another important teacher in the concrete jungle, i wondered why they came in packs of 50 when the recommended dose was around 1 tablet? if i had been old enough to get into a bar and german i may have been that guy in berlin, i've tried pot a few times and 1 or two cones has me vommiting and genuinely worried about possibly dying .

[toby]

butane really kills alot of people though

[This message has been edited by turps (edited 01 January 2003).]

[nabraxas]

touching post turps.

i'd have to say that ov the 100's ov lsd trips i've done the 2nd strongest/most intense/over powering- was when combined w/butane. the strongest was many years later- 2 tabs on bodmin moor(a very spooky place initself)- & contained many elements from the butane trip which i'd previously forgotten due to the intensity.

[t st tantra]

i just thought i'd thank you people for sharing experiences with me that i'm unfamiliar with.interesting.

t s t

[psycho0]

hey torsten, if u don't mind me asking how do you do nitrous without the ballon method?

[Torsten]

Originally posted by psycho0:

hey torsten, if u don't mind me asking how do you do nitrous without the ballon method?

Before I realised how much crap is in bulbs, I used to suck it straight from the creamer. We soon started putting a multifolded white cloth over the outlet to monitor the crap that came out. Later I learnt that the VERY cold temperatures that can be achieved by inhaling many bulbs in a row will actually cause damage to lung tissue. Ditto for the extremely dry gas.

Then thing got luxurious for a while and we had medical nitrous tanks. Initially we still took it straight from the tank, but later we got a mixer and a mask. The mixer hooks ontt two bottles at once - one nitrous and one oxygen. The mix is done at 80:20. The mixing chamber also humidified the gas and allowed it to warm considrably. This was by far the best nitrous and the best experiences. Basically with the 20% oxygen it was safe to be hooked to this set up for an hour or so at a time. usually limited by the partners impatience Never do this alone, as if you have no one to stop you, you do not come out of it until the tank is empty!!!

OK, but to the more realistic methods these days..... basically, what you are trying to achieve is to not deprive yourself of oxygen, which means you can use a ballon to inhale the gas from, but do not ever exhale back into the ballon as this will accumulate toxic carbon dioxide. Not much nitrous is saved this way anyway. There is little that can be done to humidify the gas, but you can certainly make sure it is not freezing cold (your lungs can't tell after the first one, but will nonetheless be damaged). We used to put 3 bulbs into a large soda bottle and then leave this aside and put another 3 into another soda bottle. The you return to the first one and inhale. By this time it has warmed somewhat.

if you want to use the ballon, then hyperventilate a little beforehand and then inhale from ballon, exhale into balloon and then inhale again. Do not exhale back into the ballon. This will take out virtually all nitrous and will not cause carbon dioxide toxicity.

[licorice]

ive found that sticking the nozzle of the nitrous dispenser up your nose and inhaling the gas that way warms and humidifies the gas. ultra dry freezing gas is probably not that good for your sinuses though.

[Torsten]

hmmm, heavy metal boogers

[Guest VENDEJO]

Don't ever light a chromer's cigarette for them.

KABOOM.

[woof woof woof]

reminds me of a trick I did once when I was younger, hehehe, fil your mouth with gas of a lighter, without letting the gas escape (no in- or ex-haling at this point),put a ciggi in your mouth then blow the gas through the ciggi while you hold a flame at the end of it.

Makes a neat torch for a few sec's..... ,now here comes the fun part, while i was blowing the gas out through the cig one time, gas started to escape through the sides of my mouth and caught fire...... whooshhhh! Burnt my eyebrows and had a few painfull burned feeling for a while around my mouth.

I think that that was the last time I attempted that trick.....

No serious indjury.. ThankG.