Oncidium ceboletta (Hikuri Orchid)[The Lost Peyote Substitute]

[SaBReT00tH]

Does anyone have this plant or know where to get it in Oz??

[Torsten]

UTSE

[SaBReT00tH]

typing in 'Oncidium ceboletta + australia' in google brings up pages which mostly don't relate to Australia. UK ebay, and other information about the plant not where to buy it in oz. I found an old thread from EBA on this topic but it was about 2 years old so wasn't sure about the validity of the info, and there were also no actual answers on where to get the plant from, only info about it once again. Even 'Oncidium ceboletta + buy + australia' in google doesn't seem to bringup much. Using the SAB search engine I found a thread from 2005 where torsten mentions they 'ordered the flasks in January I think, but the latest update was that they were still not ready for shipping. We bought all stock available from that supplier'. Has there been an update on the situation? I heard bunnings had some Oncidium but they were hybrids. I'm after a straight species.

Edited August 6, 2006 by SaBReT00tH

[M S Smith]

While on the subject:

http://orchidguide.com/pipermail/orchids_o...rch/001535.html

http://orchidguide.com/pipermail/orchids_o...rch/001558.html

F.R.Stermitz, T.R.Suess, C.K.Schauer, O.P.Anderson, and R.A.Bye, Jr.,

"New and Old Phenanthrene Derivatives from Oncidium cebolleta, A.

Peyote-Replacement Plant",

J. Nat. Prod., 46, 417-423 (1983).

Now this is good!

http://www.amazing-orchids.com/a/hikuri-orchid.shtml

Honestly though I have never really dived into looking at where this species is native too, but for some reason I think it native to southeastern Brasil, which would totally disqualify it as a hikura of the Tarahumara, or of any tribe in Mexico for that matter. Schultes in a Harvard Botanical Leaflet was my source for the scant mention of this plant I made in the past, and I have little trust in Schultes early work regarding cacti as it is not original feild work but simple recitation of prior authors without validation on his part. What I attempted to do in my work was validate or invalidate much of what Schultes was the true father of, and unfortunately much of it is highly questionable. But of course I addressed cacti and never came around to looking into the non-Cactaceae "peyote" species.

~Michael~

[woof woof woof]

My mother grows I think several types of oncidium ceboletta. She has some them from cenrtal america & also from venezuela! (so shultes could very well be right) looks like it is a widely distributed spp in the tropics of central & south america.

the only differences between the plants is that they have slightly different flowers, be it either in shape or pattern. in general and to the the untrained eye they look the almost the same.

so be sure to get the one from mex!

i am not in austrailia btw!

Edited August 7, 2006 by woof woof woof

[cisumevil]

De-flasking in Spring I hope :D

[devance]

A interesting note to the ethnobotany history.

My hope is that being a orchid the roots would produce the neccesary biomass and potency..

A epiphyte up in a tree could develop a chemical defense against gnawing preditors.

Ants, shrews or whatever.

[Tripitaka]

My hope is that being a orchid the roots would produce the neccesary biomass and potency..

Orchids tend to produce pseudobulbs in which I would imagine any active compounds would reside. Oncidiums are sympodial in habit and can take considerable time to produce biomass. Typically the better specimen plants are over a decade in age.

All in all a beautiful plant

De-flasking in Spring I hope

Does that mean that you are de-flasking cisumevil???? :drool:

Edited August 9, 2006 by Tripitaka

[devance]

Yeah, I can get one at [u.S.]Wallmart. 23$

Hybrid most likely.

Not going too. Won't tear it apart to find out.

Orchids is a long raise.

Anyway I like the flowers,.

Any sort effects are not going too come to a startling discovery and if it was it would be bad luck.

Too slow.

14 years.

[_e_]

i had a very promising lead on this one fall through mid last year.

ive lost contact with the person who has them, although they were very pricey (around $80 per plant)

Id say they are definately around within the orchid growers in aus (this collector knew they were hard to get, and that they were rare), but mostly the more connected and serious collectors.

If anyone has any success with these guys id love to get my hands on some.

[woof woof woof]

a decent size oncidium ceboletta (4yrs) shouldnt cost you a whole lot more then 20$ USdollars in the USA.

are orchids easy to import from overseas into Austrailia? starting them from seed can take a long long time before you get a decent sized plant indeed.

[DreamingNagual]

Greetings Friends,

I Might Have come across a very reliable source

for Oncidium ceboletta

I will talk with the people in person tommorow(Teusday)

And get back to you all with an answer!

I am trying not to get my hopes up too much

Just in case all does not go to plan

[Tripitaka]

goodluck Nagual!

If it all works out there is a few interested myself included! Be sure to keep us posted!

[DreamingNagual]

The Ball is now rolling!

will have an answer back In approx 4 hrs.

[M S Smith]

Ok, I answered my earlier question by picking up a book in my library I hadn't considered reviewing earlier. Is all I leave out of the following quote from the book is the multiple growth locations listed in both Sonora and Chihuahua. It is certainly interesting that the authors reference it as "Mescalito."

From:

"Gentry's Rio Mayo Plants: The Tropical Deciduous Forest & Environs of Northwest Mexico"

Oncidium cebolleta (Jacq.) Sw.

Mescalito

Hab. Canyons and infrequent on slopes; TDF-OF. 350-950 m

Epiphytes on many tree species and on rock faces. "A colonial species with a scape 50-70 cm long. The small flowers are yellow and reddish, attractively marked; leaves rigidly fleshy, round, 1 cm or more in diameter, and 15-20 cm long...Shows a preference for dead tree limbs and in infrequent in occurrence." Flowers Mar-May; fruits ripen in early summer. The most widespread tropical pseudobulbed orchid in the region. Son, Chih to S. Am. and Caribbean Isls.

~Michael~

Edited August 29, 2006 by M S Smith

[M S Smith]

Torsten, this is for you and yours in answer to previous questions.

From the same publication as above, and the only Cranichis (Orchidaceae) mentioned in the book. It should be noted of course that the Rio Mayo is Tarahumara country.

Cranichis schaffneri Rchb.f.

Chihuahua: Cascada de Basaseachic (RS 8815, RS 9331).

Hab. Shaded woods; POF. 1700-1950 m.

Terrestrial with several broad basal leaves; flowers small, greenish white, Sep; fruits Oct. Chih to Oax.

Needless to say this may be the "Chanichis (?) speciosa" mentioned as peyote by Schultes and listed in my own works.

For those interested, this particular book lists a total of 47 Orchidaceae from Tarahumara country, including three Bletia, though not the one cited under the name B. campanulata by Schultes as a peyote. Maybe there are more modern synonyms for this species. I will investigate further, but the Gentry book lists B. purpurea, B. reflexa, and B. roezlii.

~Michael~

[DreamingNagual]

Hey people,

I was supposed to get a call back at 4pm

regarding availability of this plant,

But I went to my doctors appointment

and missed the call

I just tried to call then but there is no answer,

I will call them again in the morning & will

let you all know how it goes then.

[Torsten]

Thanks heaps Michael!! I'll pass all that on to Daniel so he can chase up the species here.

[M S Smith]

Some simple stuf about B. campanulata, but not indicating that it grows as far north as Mexico.

http://www.orchids.org/ooc/Genera/Bletia/c...ata/index.shtml

Go here and search for Bletia. It has it in Mexico, but I need to look more closely if it grows within Tarahumara territory to be even able to be a Tarahumara peyote as suggested by Schultes.

http://fm1.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/index.php?...171c89dfb7dbc49

This link shows it synonymous with B. reflexa.

http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/med/ORCH-b...amp-1070590.jpg

Here B. reflexa is synonym with B. campanulata.

http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/med/ORCH-b...refl-159732.jpg

Chemical analysis of B. campanulata?

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin...=1&SRETRY=0

I think I'll revisit this topic a bit more latter.

Tell Daniel I said hello and send my love.

~Michael~

[Openminded]

I found a German site that sells oncidium ceboletta as in-vitro plantlets, they're charging a total of 22 Euros for ten, so I'm going to get some (especially since I already have a few orchids, and therefore I have suitable compost and fertilisers).

I could try to send a few out to people in Oz, if you think there's any chance of them getting through..?

Here are some old photos of some of my orchids. Two of these are, I believe, oncidiums, but unknown hybrids.

[DreamingNagual]

OK, My end has fallen thru and the source

Passed me this info.

So Could someone in NSW be nice enough to contact

"Royal Orchids" In Sydney and ask for Kevin!

He should be able to help us out!

02 43751199

[Teotzlcoatl]

This is a really cool thread!

[Undergrounder]

This is a really cool thread!

Yeah great info thanks people. There's not a lot going around.

I know someone who lives in Mexico who says Onc. cebolleta grows wild in tree branches all over the more arid areas of mexico. He offered to send me a few pieces, but being that i wouldn't probably eat it even if i did get one i declined. I don't think i could ever hurt an orchid.

[Torsten]

I shoud point out that all our cebolettas died in the middle of winter. while an abolsute minimum of 8degC appeared to be Ok for them, the unusually cold 4degC we had this winter was too much for them. The only one tissue culturing this now has no stock left as the flasks were grown from imported seed.

[Undergrounder]

I shoud point out that all our cebolettas died in the middle of winter. while an abolsute minimum of 8degC appeared to be Ok for them, the unusually cold 4degC we had this winter was too much for them. The only one tissue culturing this now has no stock left as the flasks were grown from imported seed.

That sucks Torsten... Have you tried Floralabs for more flasks? Do you know of anyone who's actually tried or tested any of the plant material?