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Acacia Phlebophylla DMT


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#26 t st tantra

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 08:45 PM

there are a large number of oz cyperaceae which seem to be active as maoi and elaeagnus triflora may well be.was it rev talking about some wa plants that may contain maoi,[nitr? or similar]?
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#27 transDiMenTional

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 10:47 PM

there are a large number of oz cyperaceae which seem to be active as maoi and elaeagnus triflora may well be.was it rev talking about some wa plants that may contain maoi,[nitr? or similar]?
t s t .


Any more on this?
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#28 PD.

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 01:08 PM

I have a reference for tetrahydoharman from an oz native, not being up on my harmaline/harmine knowledge, can this be used as a MAOI? - Darcy


The large A. baileyana i was keeping an eye on was no more on my last visit. After alot of head scratching i was informed that the Rangers actively seek out this "pest" and cut it down. I was also informed that seed grown from a local Acacia had apparently hybridized with the baileyanas even thought they were some distance apart. The tree was in a non polluted area far from any town or road and would have been perfect for testing, something i think one member here wanted to do. Most of the other baileyanas in the region are on roadsides but i will find another one out there with seed hopefully before the rangers get to it.

If the maoi is available in these seeds at amounts that could be utilised then i dont see how the Aboriginals could have missed it.

#29 bricklaya

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 08:01 PM

hi all. i recently discovered a middle age phleb plant (i won't disclose its whereabouts). i have not laid a finger on it, but i was wondering, would there be a method of gathering some of the dead leaves around the base without risking spreading fungal infection?

what a beautiful plant. the veins in the leaves are pure intricacy. can really tell there is something upmost sacred about this plant

i am also interesting in aquiring some seeds to start trying to help raise the population again... but again.. the fungal issue. is there a way of getting the seeds from the plant without doing any harm and touching it as little as possible? or should i just not go there

#30 Torsten

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 11:16 PM

Is this plant in its natural range [Mt Buffalo] or somewhere else? if somewhere else then I would not be too concerned about pathogens as long as you keep to basic sterility protocols. On the mountain itself it's probably a different story. The plants are mostly well regenerated at the moment, so much less risk of contamination right now, but that can change from year to year. I am sure collecting the fallen leaves and some seeds won't be much of a problem [albeit illegal]. If the plant is near a path then it is probably visited frequently anyway.
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#31 phyllode

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:26 PM

Phyllodes of A. acuminata were recently found by GCMS to contain more tetrahydroharman and harman than tryptamines [https://www.dmt-nexu...g=posts&t=27281], and are known to be orally active. Only one scientific test has been done on phlebophylla, meaning it could at times contain betacarbolines.
The fact that tryptamine acacias are recorded as highly sacred to indigenous peoples is enough for me, and enough said too.

Except that anyone wild-harvesting in a National Park or Sacred Site should be cursed.

Edited by phyllode, 08 February 2012 - 04:28 PM.

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#32 SunChaser

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 08:58 PM

The problem is, the Victorian aboriginal tribes were basically wiped out, even before white people settled around the area. Then the majority of the intimate knowledge of the land from the surviving aboriginals, was almost completely lost not long after the christians got to them. Fact is, we have very little knowledge about how the Victorian aboriginals even lived or what plants they utilized as food.

So I don't really see how any information gathered in this day and age about secret ceremonies they may or may not of had, could really be seen as reliable. Whether it was coming from a aboriginal elder or some over eager white person. 

Obviously up north is a different story. But unless they managed to uncover archeological evidence, or a long lost diary from a european settler, I think it is just one of those things that we will never know. Anything else is simply speculation.

Phyllode, I'm fully aware that many acacias were incredibly important to many aboriginal tribes as a invaluable food, medicine & tool source and greatly prized, but I don't think that is in anyway evidence they utilized it for it's psychoactive properties. Though I'd love to be proved wrong, if there's something I'm missing? 

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#33 phyllode

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 08:22 AM

There's a few land councils in NSW, northern Victoria who wouldn't be too pleased at the 'wiped-out' description, similarly Aztec elders are angered at such descriptions of their culture They are proud to still exist. It wasn't a complete genocide, like in the West Indies.

Why single out tryptamine acacias as 'ceremonial'? (this much has been published for most parts of aus)
Universities in Australia are only just beginning to tap the immense wealth of (previously quite guarded) medicinal knowledge indigenous people had of plants and animals. For the past 200 years aboriginal people insisted that the goanna had a poison sack. It was completely dismissed by knowledgeable white folk until scientists discovered it a few years ago.

If I did/do know more, I would never say anything on the internet.

Respect to the Land, the people of the land, and the plants.

Edited by phyllode, 10 February 2012 - 12:14 PM.


#34 SunChaser

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:49 PM

Well you just need to read my past posts on the issue and you'll see I try to be as sensitive to the aboriginal culture as anyone. But whether it offends people or not, it still doesn't change the fact that there have not been aboriginals living there nomadic way of life in Victoria for many generations. All the aboriginals that did survive the diseases and massacres, were put into missionaries and forced to live the white mans way. 

Basically, the majority of information about the traditional use of aboriginal medicine, which is being discovered today in this particular region, comes from observations read from European journals. There is no real reliable source and like I think somebody already pointed out, aboriginal people are just as capable of lying to make themselves seem more significant, as any white person is.

On your claim of aboriginals singling out a tryptamine acacia as sacred, well just because you said they do, doesn't make it true. Without verification or describing what acacias your talking about, it's a completely baseless claim.

It seriously is very short sighted and not very logical of you to claim it to be any kind of evidence, because someone can't give you a a reason why aboriginals considered a mystery plant as ceremonial. 

But, I will say that aboriginals considered lots of things as ceremonial or sacred, that don't get you high. I mean, maybe they used the wood of this particular acacia as a instrument which was used in ceremonies. Maybe it was apart of a dream time story that was very significant to them. I could go on forever, but without describing the plant your referring to, it's actually a very silly question to expect anyone to be able to answer.

Honestly, I would love to see some verifiable evidence that aboriginals used DMT before the Europeans arrived. But as far as I can tell you are spreading misinformation and grabbing at straws, probably because of some invested interest. Which, imo, is far more disrespectful to the aboriginal culture than alluding to the fact that there way of life was destroyed all before we had the chance to document it, in any significant way.

But like I've already I said, I would love for you to be able to prove me wrong on this particular subject?

Peace
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#35 Seldom

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 04:45 PM

Pyllode isn't saying Aboriginal people use DMT. The social structure of Aboriginal cultures in general is such that there is really nothing that corrosponds to western notion of freedom of information. The people possessing these certain forms of sacred knowledge are precious few, even among those still living traditional life. The information you're talking about, if it exists, is between the ears of people who understand too well the identity betweem themselves and this country to give it away and allow it to exist as a feature inside the juggernaut that is the western style of life. and tbh i cannot blame them

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#36 SunChaser

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 05:46 PM

Bulls on Parade, dude your all over the place. I'm not trying to offend you, but I'm lost to the point your trying to make?

I explained why it was impossible to know if aboriginals used acacia's traditionally as a psychoactive plant, unless we were talking about the northern or desert aboriginals. But even then you'd want to be careful about claiming it as fact, if it wasn't documented before certain acacia's psychoactive properties became common knowledge.

Then Phyllodes tried to tell me they do, without giving any logical reasoning as to why the impossibility I provided was incorrect. If you want to except complete rumor as fact, then that's fine. But rumor doesn't need to be posted here as fact.

I've just personally heard idiot hippies in nimbin claim that aboriginals have been doing DMT for thousands of years, simply because some aboriginal on the main street of nimbin told them and I just find it completely ridiculous and ignorant.

If you can't post anything more than "it's true because I said so". Then why post it in the first place?

Peace

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#37 phyllode

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 06:38 PM

jabez wrote:

But as far as I can tell you are spreading misinformation and grabbing at straws, probably because of some invested interest.

You are all over the place. I said the species were 'sacred'. Do some real anthropological research. There is enough published. Incidentally, I wasn't specifically talking about Victoria. Talk to people who would or might know. East-coast languages are still fully spoken. Clever-business is never publicly discussed. I've said as much as I would want to say and honestly laugh at your ill-informed judgement.

The question "Did indigenous people use 'DMT'?" is ridiculous and naive from a number of perspectives. Think about it.

Edited by phyllode, 10 February 2012 - 06:47 PM.

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#38 SunChaser

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 07:02 PM

Oh, so this is about some drug induced belief in plant fairies or something similar.

Fair enough, each to there own.

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#39 PD.

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 07:54 PM

Been a while since i have read/seen this thread. Simply it is as jabez says, all evidence and stories that could be relied upon as truth/fact were lost long ago and all is merely speculation regardless of the desire for it to be otherwise. One thing though i missed last time,


but as far as I was aware the concept of boiling in vessels was not known to aboriginals before the invasion



From what i have read, boiling liquid was simply done with large shells or even bark "troughs" via the use of stones from a fire, easy. From boiling liquid to using this knowledge to produce any kind of tryptamine brew is a long long shot. The use of mushrooms i have found little written about but from some accounts certain mushrooms were strictly not for use/consumption. More than likely for reasons of toxicity but if one was to assume that trypts were used then wouldnt subs for example be the most obvious choice........... then i guess you get into the old argument as to whether or not subs are introduced lol. Many accounts of miners and early settlers eating fungi and having "experiences". Dont ask me for refs though, cant recall where i read the articles or if they were of substance at all, too long ago now but no doubt easy to find on the www.
Some things we would love to be true but there is just no evidence to back up the speculation and highly doubtful there ever will be.

Another thing, i thought that the "meeting place" on the mountain was womens business and it was women that led whites up the mountain when they first ventured up there, the track used is where the road is now, well, that is, apparently. :P

#40 phyllode

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 03:23 PM

jabez wrote:


Oh, so this is about some drug induced belief in plant fairies or something similar.

Fair enough, each to there own.

Peace



Peace? You are a simpleton with little understanding of culture or tryptamine acacias. No peace mate.

#41 phyllode

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 03:29 PM

Indigenous peoples (prior to invasion) boiled liquids in either large sea-shells, or 'coolamons', special hard-wood bowls which could take some heat.

I really feel if some more people here actually researched the culture (not outdated racist assumptions about them) you would learn a lot and gain a little more respect of the oldest unbroken tradition on the planet.

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#42 SunChaser

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 06:46 PM

Secret knowledge comes from a time when the people of this land had no real possessions. Basically secret knowledge was the only possessions they had and it was there for very important and incredibly sacred to the men of the tribe. For the most part women where forbidden to know or talk of secret knowledge, under punishment of death. lol, so I would hope you are not female phyllodes with this apparent secret knowledge you claim to hold.

In this modern age secret knowledge is the cause of many serious issues within indigenous communities, including extremely violent crimes against women. I have heard some incredibly intelligent aboriginals who are working very hard to fix the problems in there communities say it has no place in the modern day. Although, I personally do not know enough about it to have a personal opinion. 

I don't think I ever claimed to be an expert on tryptamine acacia's. But that has little to do with the facts I have pointed out, which you have not been able to dispute in any logical manner.

Also, yes you are right that some aboriginal tribes did use the boiling process though various technics, but it is also important to realize, most did not!

Honestly, if your only argument is to call me a simpleton and hint at some rumor which probably originated from some psychotic drugged out hippies in nimbin, then I think you should reconsider who the real simpleton actually is.

I will personally keep looking at this issue from a logical and scientifically based perspective.

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#43 phyllode

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 03:40 PM

jabez wrote:

Honestly, if your only argument is to call me a simpleton and hint at some rumor which probably originated from some psychotic drugged out hippies in nimbin, then I think you should reconsider who the real simpleton actually is.

Have I mentioned anything about Nimbin or faeries? This is your strange trip. I am talking about what is known by the wider indigenous and anthropological community. I called you a simpleton because you did not really think about my use 'dmt' question and it's connotations.

My points were: 1) It is possible to have a tryptamine experience with several native acacias without the need for additional MAOIs or extraction with solvents.
2) Trees known to contain tryptamines have been recorded as 'sacred' or 'ceremonial'. No further information (whatever it was) would be expected to be given.
3) Indigenous peoples had both the 'technology' and detailed knowledge of plants to at least work out if they are hallucinogenic (even dmt)

My vested interests are in respecting the culture (WHICH DID NOT DIE OUT - THIS IS A HIGHLY OFFENSIVE AND IGNORANT STATEMENT - ask any senior aboriginal)
and in not discussing what would be forbidden to discuss under their law, if they knew anything.

Finally, your statement about Females proves your ignorance on this subject. They held has much law as men. "Most tribes did not boil?" Excuse me..?

I don't come here to make up rumors. I present this for general interest, not for debate with the anally-retentive and frankly, in need of some more knowledge.

#44 SunChaser

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:56 PM

Have I mentioned anything about Nimbin or faeries? This is your strange trip. I am talking about what is known by the wider indigenous and anthropological community. I called you a simpleton because you did not really think about my use 'dmt' question and it's connotations.


Firstly all your comments so far have been completely ambiguous. So you have only yourself to blame for anything I have assumed. Besides, the only other place I've heard people claim what you are claiming, is in nimbin.

My points were: 1) It is possible to have a tryptamine experience with several native acacias without the need for additional MAOIs or extraction with solvents.


This proves nothing. It is a known fact that aboriginals didn't eat everything that was edible, or use all plants that had medical value. Well one tribe might have used a particular plant, it was not uncommon for another tribe to completely ignore it. So to say they used a tryptamine acacia for its psychedelic properties simply because it was possible, is ignorant.

2) Trees known to contain tryptamines have been recorded as 'sacred' or 'ceremonial'. No further information (whatever it was) would be expected to be given.


Ok, you don't want to name the acacia in question, whatever. But why can't you at least say who "recorded it" as sacred? Or the reason given from this official source? 

3) Indigenous peoples had both the 'technology' and detailed knowledge of plants to at least work out if they are hallucinogenic (even dmt)


This means nothing!

My vested interests are in respecting the culture (WHICH DID NOT DIE OUT - THIS IS A HIGHLY OFFENSIVE AND IGNORANT STATEMENT - ask any senior aboriginal)
and in not discussing what would be forbidden to discuss under their law, if they knew anything.


But you are discussing it you goose! You just refuse to give any kind of evidence to your claim. You want to talk about disrespectful!

Finally, your statement about Females proves your ignorance on this subject. They held has much law as men.


Maybe in some tribes they did. But for they most part, in the majority of northern aboriginal and Torres straight islander communities (who are the ones that still live traditionally) women do not! 

 "Most tribes did not boil?" Excuse me..?


The evidence for my claim can clearly be found in how dramatically the diets of most aboriginal tribes changed, once given iron pots. 

I don't come here to make up rumors. I present this for general interest, not for debate with the anally-retentive and frankly, in need of some more knowledge.


No you just came to give a few completely ambiguous comments about aboriginals consuming psychedelics, then refuse to give evidence because it would be disrespectful! Personally I think you need to take a good hard look at yourself.

I never pretended to know everything about indigenous culture. But honestly, the more you talk the less convinced I am that you have any clue about it, or respect for that matter.
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#45 ∂an

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 08:01 PM

I think throwing certain acacia phyllodes on hot coals in an enclosed space and breathing the smoke would be a far more likely scenario than an ayahuasca type brew.
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#46 Therefore

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:09 AM

Apparently Australian Aborigines didn't eat the Agaricus species of mushroom (genus includes field mushrooms)
Aboriginal use of fungi page from the Australian National Botanic Garden site:
http://www.anbg.gov....aboriginal.html

Interesting. Not related to any acacia use though
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#47 phyllode

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:48 AM

jabez wrote:

No you just came to give a few completely ambiguous comments about aboriginals consuming psychedelics, then refuse to give evidence because it would be disrespectful! Personally I think you need to take a good hard look at yourself.

Ambiguous only to those who can't think. I presented a little evidence a few things were possible, and a little about cultural prorocol.

I have simply said what I said. You are the one on about DMT/nimibin/claims etc. You really are a total idiot. Fuck off.

ALL I HAVE ASKED IS FOR THE INDIGENOUS CULTURE TO BE RESPECTED, and acknowledged for what they were capable of.

OR ARE YOU WHITE FOLK GOING TO RE-EDUCATED THEM WITH YOUR SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE, and publication based knowledge system.

Again, fuck off.

Edited by phyllode, 14 February 2012 - 12:27 PM.


#48 planthelper

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:31 AM

i have not read much in this thread, and normaly, if i don't know the thread, i don't reply, but anyway...

we know as a fact, that the natives use acacia pyllodes in smoking ceremonies.
we know as a fact, that some dmt acacias, get burned by bush fires.

we know as a fact, that one place where dmt acacias grow, is held in very high regards by the natives, and the same place, even produces some colorfull opals!

opal sparkling colors remind me of dmt.
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#49 phyllode

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:20 PM

Thanks planthelper for your comments. And kalika, you are quite clever.

jabez wrote:

I never pretended to know everything about indigenous culture. But honestly, the more you talk the less convinced I am that you have any clue about it, or respect for that matter.


I can only continue to believe that you are a right twit. Everything I have said would be verified by any senior indigenous person.
Instead of just accepting my rather beneign comments regarding sacredness, you launch into some kind of tirade apparently determined to prove how 'primitive' and apparently incapable, compared to for example South American natives, the people of this land were.

You offer nothing except outdated, almost 19th century anglo-saxon views of the culture. The very limited published anthropological reserach pertaining to 'shamanic''practices observes the complexity and scope of the "High Degree".
The culture still works by oral tradition. Go talk to some people.

But I suspect your attitude comes from closet racism, or some kind of sub-conscious guilt trip about perhaps your own exploitation of the land and it's resources, without acknowledgment of the worlds' oldest surving traditions.

I think you should be ashamed.

Edited by phyllode, 15 February 2012 - 03:22 PM.


#50 SunChaser

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:14 PM

Planthelper, Can you please explain to me how you know for a fact what the Victorian aboriginals did in secret ceremonies, when we don't even have complete records on what plants they lived off or exactly how the lived in general? I mean come on! Just cause you say they did doesn't make it fact!

Phyllodes, how am I being racist, by simply pointing out that we can't know for a fact if these psychedelics played a significant part in aboriginals lives? I mean, you calling me racist because I don't automatically assume aboriginals believed in/or lived the same way as native Americans just blows my mind!

I never said they were not smart enough to do anything. Just like my example about how some tribes completely ignored some edible/medical plants, well the same plant played a significant role for other tribes. There could be many different cultural reasons for this fact. Indigenous people not being smart enough has nothing to do with it. Maybe they considered most psychedelics as black magic. I mean there connection to the land and nature was already clearly strong enough.

The fact that you are incapable of an intelligent debate about a very interesting topic and instead just come out with nothing but unfounded claims, abuse and accusing me of being racist (when I have not said a single racist thing), just proves that you have no evidence, but just an invested interest. 

btw, Saying aboriginals used a certain class of psychedelics, then saying you can't provide evidence because it would be disrespectful, is one of the most oxymoronic things I've ever heard.

Many European settlers spent many years living with aboriginals and wrote down a lot of there experiences. From there accounts, it just doesn't seem that mind altering drugs played a huge part in the life of aboriginals, pituri and mildly fermented beverages being the obvious exceptions. 

You keep telling me how the traditional owners of this land would be so offended by my words phyllodes. But I'd be really interested to know if you've actually ever been to Arnhemland and explained your theory to the elders up there about how aboriginals needed to use hallucinogens to gain more connection to there land? Cause, I don't honestly know, but I'm guessing it wouldn't go down to well, lol.

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