Teotzlcoatl Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) From Wiki-The Fabled White Peyote of The Grand Canyon and Four Corners Area-Archaeological discoveries in Arizona and Southern Texas indicate that peyote has been used by the Southwestern Tribes and their ancestors since antiquity. Peyote has been found carbon dated as 10,000 years old in caves in Southern Texas and Arizona. The mummified samples did not resemble modern peyote and were larger and more domed in comparison to modern populations of Lophophora williamsii. These samples also contained up to 6% mescaline by weight even after thousands of years in a desiccated state. Modern Lophophora varieties average 3% mescaline in comparison. The Dine (Navajo) oral traditions and those of other Southwest tribes indicate that a cold tolerant, high altitude variety of peyote existed in the area of the Grand Canyon in ancient times[citation needed], called "white peyote" which was rumored to be of cosmic potency.Recent discoveries and botanical evidence indicates modern Lophophora species may in fact be divergent hybrids of Lophophora diffusa and a species recently named Lophophora brackii[citation needed], a high altitude domed "white" peyote with 'Z' patterns and articulated ribbing that originates from a single population confined to a mountain near Viesca, in the northern state of Coahuila, Mexico. Modern Lophophora varieties exhibit pollen structure which ranges from 3 pored pollen from its western ranges up to 9 pored pollen in the Eastern Range where Lophophora decipiens grows under extremely arid conditions, characteristics of a natural hybrid. Lophophora diffusa more closely resembles primitive cacti than the other Lophophora varieties and this species also exists as an isolated population in a mountainous area and is more cold tolerant[citation needed] than Lophophora williamsii populations. Edited July 3, 2008 by Teotz' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moses Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 this is as duplicate of post 15 of below threadhttp://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...p;hl=albino+lop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 3, 2008 Author Share Posted July 3, 2008 (edited) No, no...this is not an actual white cactus, it's a strain of Lophophora or perhaps a species.I believe that thread simply talks about "albino" cacti, which are cool too, but not what I'm talking about. Edited July 3, 2008 by Teotz' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark80 Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 No, no...this is not an actual white cactus, it's a strain of Lophophora or perhaps a species.I believe that thread simply talks about "albino" cacti, which are cool too, but not what I'm talking about.Does anybody have any seeds or plants from Viesca, Coahuila, Mexico? I'd love to see pics, or even just hear a description of the botanical.did you read post 15? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 3, 2008 Author Share Posted July 3, 2008 (edited) O ok...So he does talk about it a little in that thread...Thanks for posting that Moses, I'm still going to continue this thread tho, because the focus of the above thread was mainly on "albino" Peyote and not strains/species of "White" Peyote.So does anybody have any "super-strains" of Lophophora? High potency? Strange rib-patterns? Cold-hardy?This will likely turn out to be another "wild-cactus-chase"... Edited July 3, 2008 by Teotz' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 3, 2008 Author Share Posted July 3, 2008 (edited) From Roley's iLophophora Blog- If you are referring to the "Fabled White Peyote" section of the "Native American Church" Wikipedia article, it's important to note the word "fabled". The information in this part of the NAC article is wildly unsubstantiated and should not be trusted - at least not before it is supported by serious references (which is highly unlikely to happen). M.S. Smith ventures as far as calling it crappola ;-)Comment by Mr. Smith- from Edot's cactus forum.L. brackii is named after Steve Brack of Mesa Garden, and he thought it sort of funny when I asked him about L. brackii. The Lophophora with the "Z" pattern, or more properly with raised diamond shaped tubercles (which give the apperence of the laughably discribed "Z pattern"), is the higher elevation (this is a relative tern in relation to the surrounding low altitude flatlands) L. decipiens collected by Brack from near Viesca. It looks as though the plant Brack has claimed is L. decipiens is being claimed by others as L. brackii. L. decipiens and L. fricii are in my opinion a single L. williamsii subspecies, this even though they may represent two varieties of growth within the subspecies.Navajo oral tradition could easily be referring to a non-Lophophora species of sacred cacti. Just because "L. brackii" (tehehehe) grows in a higher altitude in Mexico quite clearly doen't mean it, or any other Lophophora for that matter, can handle the much cooler temps in the Grand Canyon region.~Michael~How DISAPPOINTING!!! I bet there is something to this myth tho... Sounds like an interesting cultivator.Does anybody have any seeds or plants from Viesca, Coahuila, Mexico? I'd love to see pics, or even just hear a description of the botanical. Edited July 3, 2008 by Teotz' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garbage Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 The book "Ariocarpus et cetera" has an interesting image of L.Diffua var.fricii sprawling on the rocks in habitat.An expensive book for a single image.Your fabled white peyote would be the peyote of the Yeti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 4, 2008 Author Share Posted July 4, 2008 The book "Ariocarpus et cetera" has an interesting image of Lophophra diffua var. fricii sprawling on the rocks in habitat.What, a white one? Or is that pic of the cultivator I'm asking about?Your fabled white peyote would be the peyote of the Yeti.What the hell does that mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garbage Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 It means the Yeti guards his white peyote garden well from prying eyes,even Santa Claus on his Christmas rounds has been unable to spot it.There were reports of Yeti sweat lodges in the Ozarks but moonshine and traditional inbreeding was thought to be the cause.The Yeti is of course not native,he came over with the Chinamen who built the railways.Elderly Chinese remark that the white peyote fits the description of a magical wonton dumpling used in stories to amuse small children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 4, 2008 Author Share Posted July 4, 2008 What the hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spunwhirllin Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 All strains of Peyote are plenty potent,the rituals associated with consumption influence the effects tremendously.Damn,whats up with all the potency questions,haven't you learned anything Teotz?Chill,learn and listen to what the plants tell you man! TO HEAR, ONE MUST FIRST LISTEN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 4, 2008 Author Share Posted July 4, 2008 (edited) Indeed, spunwhirllin.Heres more talk of "White Peyote"...I bet it just an L. williamsii ssp. (subspecies) decipiens, a heavily glaucus (white?) plant, commonly with protuberant poderia (tubercles) that give the appearance of the "Z" pattern among the axils, as feature that doesn't serve as a good distinguisher from either certain populations of L. williamsii or L. williamsii ssp. fricii. L. fricii and L. decipiens are quite close in relation to each other with both growing in regions surrounding Viesca. Steve Brack and I had discussed this before and he supports L. fricii growing in the low hot flatlands with L. decipiens growing in a very few unnamed higher hill ranges. I'll probably guess L. brackii is Steve "Brack's" L. decipiens that someone threw his name on with no justification and against all the rules of nomenclature, something quite common with cacti, especially L. williamsii. I doubt Steve would even recognize the name, but then again, since L. decipiens is in all actuality an invalid name its disuse and the application of a new name might be justified. But since L. fricii appears to be valid in regards to the other plant from Viesca (but is it really?), and these plants from the hills seem to be a variant, there might be the possibility that this plant could take the name L. williamsii ssp. fricii var. brackii.Leave it up to wiki to cause more confusion than it solves….and leave it up to me to…well, add a little more?I'm not going to eat this cactus, jesus. I'd just like to grow it...I'll have pics soon of my (uneaten) blue Trichocereus peruvianus.Seeds of Lophophora from the area of Viesca, Coahuila, Mexico may be foundhere.Has anybody ever grown these plants? Can anybody obtain pics? Edited September 28, 2008 by Teotz' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyAmine. Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 (edited) Teotz, things seem to fly over your head faster than an eagle over a mountain top, or maybe its just through one ear and out the other Edited July 4, 2008 by AndyAmine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micromegas Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 (edited) It means the Yeti guards his white peyote garden well from prying eyes,even Santa Claus on his Christmas rounds has been unable to spot it.There were reports of Yeti sweat lodges in the Ozarks but moonshine and traditional inbreeding was thought to be the cause.The Yeti is of course not native,he came over with the Chinamen who built the railways.Elderly Chinese remark that the white peyote fits the description of a magical wonton dumpling used in stories to amuse small children.lol, classic! if santa claus was goofed on amanitas, no reason the yeti shouldn't munch on a few white peyotes.But seriously, this fabled white peyote is mysteriously intriguing even if totally unfounded. The taxonomic discussions, however, are way over my head.Search on.Edit: this is of probably little interest to anyone, but at the same time (9:56) that I was writing "The taxonomic discussions, however, are way over my head", AA wrote of Teotz "things seem fly over your head faster than an eagle over a mountain top". That's an odd coincidence, no?Micro Edited July 4, 2008 by Micromegas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilligan Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 jeebus. I just have to ask this... Teotz - who is Stinkfist by?oh, that's right... TOOLMate - Sometimes listening and/or thinking is WAAAAAY better than speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garbage Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 If you do find one you can expect a good price on e-bay.A better price than even these Wollemi pines fetch.Which reminds me that i desire a Bristlecone for Bonsai work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 4, 2008 Author Share Posted July 4, 2008 (edited) Why do y'all give me some much shit? I searched and I found a bunch of info on my own, I think it's interesting so I posted it, geeze. Edited July 29, 2008 by Teotz' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 4, 2008 Author Share Posted July 4, 2008 (edited) This is Lophophora fricii from the Viesca Coahuila area, supposedly it lives in the low-land while Lophophora decipiens var. brackii only grows on a few hills jutting out above the low-lands.https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/geldboks/Billede030.jpg&key=bd644840c30ba18a0e8a70c160edeaf4de4043068ddc9fea56ade31e77be4de6The the cactus below apparently grows in the low-lands, near a lagoon?https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://87.106.62.138/lophophora/Bildmaterial/Bilder%2520am%2520Standort/Staaten/Coahuila/fricii/El%2520Amparo/Lophophora%2520fricii.El%2520Amparo%2520Lagune%2520Viesca.01.jpg&key=f25ab9bf3f7d307c26699aa192960a1dfd187cad498c825010d4b6d5b2eff0faLophophora fricii Habermannfriciidesignated after A.V. Fric 1882-1944 a czech collector of cactiIn habitat Lophophora fricii is a very mutable species. It´s hardly to find two similar plants at one location. Particularly in terms of the bloom they are different at the locations. DistributionThis species grows around the lagoon near Viesca in the state of Coahuila, Mexico.Lophophora fricii forma albifloraalbiflora = white bloomDistributionA specific place in habitat near Viesca in the state of Coahuila, Mexico.It´s only a white flowering form of Lophophora fricii.Lophophora williamsii var. decipiens Croizatdecipiens = deceptiveDistributionThe location of this plants is unknown.Plants, accordingly the description grows near El Amparo in the state Coahuila, Mexico. This plants are counted among the form sphere from Lophophora fricii.From- hereLooks like Viesca has two types of Lophophora friciiMy question is... How did Lophophora decipiens var. brackii become know as "White Peyote", I thought the "White Peyote" was in the Grand Canyon area? It is much further south where Lophophora decipiens var. brackii grow, correct? Perhaps Lophophora decipiens var. brackii was part of the South range of these cacti and now are the only ones left in existance.People were obvisouly using this peyote 1000s of years in that area...Here's the qoute again...Archaeological discoveries in Arizona and Southern Texas indicate that peyote has been used by the Southwestern Tribes and their ancestors since antiquity. Peyote has been found carbon dated as 3,500 years old in caves in Southern Texas and Arizona. The mummified samples did not resemble modern peyote and were larger and more domed in comparison to modern populations of Lophophora williamsii. These samples also contained up to 6% mescaline by weight even after thousands of years in a desiccated state. Modern Lophophora varieties average 3% mescaline in comparison. The Dine (Navajo) oral traditions and those of other Southwest tribes indicate that a cold tolerant, high altitude variety of peyote existed in the area of the Grand Canyon in ancient times, called "white peyote" which was rumored to be of cosmic potency. Recent discoveries and botanical evidence indicates modern Lophophora species may in fact be divergent hybrids of Lophophora diffusa and a species recently named Lophophora brackii, a high altitude domed "white" peyote with Z patterns and articulated ribbing that originates from a single population confined to a mountain near Viesca, in the northern state of Coahuila, Mexico.The way it seems to me is that Lophophora brackii and "White Peyote" are just in the same article together... is there any other connection between them? Except that Lophophora decipiens var. brackii is an actual white cactus. Edited July 4, 2008 by Teotz' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garbage Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 I read Fricii has a fair number of forms.Some lump them all into Diffusa,probably an error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auxin Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 I'll throw in my swag. If 'white peyote' did/does exist it need not be assumed to be of genus Lophophora, the majority of peyotes arent.Given that the fable places it in the grand canyon region perhaps it could be a Mammillaria, mams are known to be psychoactive and reportedly some species produce very colorful visions. Mams also have many members that look like white fluff balls.Heres one known psychoactive Mammillaria:https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://ecactus.com.ne.kr/temp/Mammillaria_grahamii.jpg&key=9c58edc14b3dae0b834b03615829f12d48f64bf5d10112cb78194d1e1a9d5ccfAnd another:https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.mexicoart.it/IMAGES1/Mammillaria_oliviae.jpg&key=afe85752c8da9ac0dce93115dd32fba5273fd4722bf56c76f11f47c21f0627acAnd another:https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.cactusargentina.com/fullimages/Mammillaria%2520craigii_f.jpg&key=7d5c78927cce1c17ffcb6b74ee2581e3427c1b3eb67a92e24eac1f1e597c38acThere are more known psychoactive mams, and doubtlessly there are active species that are not on the books. And it could be something other than a mam, theres lots of little white hedgehog type cacti some of which are very much off the beaten path in psychoactives research.https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Escobaria_vivipara_var_rosea_26juin2006.jpg/449px-Escobaria_vivipara_var_rosea_26juin2006.jpg&key=4f5f7e04f8adf7fd784d80335ca29a4ed094247d1117199ed9edb3a136c65d64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garbage Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 You think lophophora could be the peyote of the idle?Preferable only because it has no spines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 (edited) Have you never seen my "Lost Peyotes" threads?Check that out, or take a look at Mr.Smith's "S. & M.C."I believe many more cacti were used other than Lophophora, I also believe different strains (some now extinct) were used in times long passed...Why could Lophophora range have not extended into the Grand Canyon region in times long passed, when climate was a bit different back then, or even a different species of Lophophora that has now gone extinct?I also must note that the Tarahumara stament that other hikuri were servants to hikuli walula saeliami does not have anything to do with species classification, but purely plant size, and a large plant that grew towards the Rio Grande, not Viesca. And this not even considering its likely mythological basis, even if a large plant.Perhaps, the "Hikuli Walula Saeliami" Cactus is the fabled "White Peyote"?Does anybody have pics of whiteish, greyish or silverish Lophophora cacti? Or even just pics of different types of Lophophora decipiens cacti?A very inteligent cactus grower stated to me in an email that-I have some (Lophophora) fricii that are quite pale and silver grey white like, i imagine these must be something like that but a lighter shade?P.S.- I really need an answer to this question, can anybody help me? Q- "The way it seems to me is that Lophophora brackii and "White Peyote" are just in the same article together... is there any other connection between them? " Edited July 6, 2008 by Teotz' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 Hey folks, Teotz is trying hard to contribute. If you want to have a go at him then do so in his useless threads, but stop wasting bandwidth in threads that are actually of substance or you are no better than what you accuse him of. he is doing his research and he is sharing ideas - what else do you want?I think this would be a good thread if it wasn't for the off topic interjections. If you want to discuss my comment then please start a thread in chill and let this thread get back on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spunwhirllin Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 Some lophophora can,and do grow with a whitish,pale grey epidermis,while some varieties remain blue/green.I just wish I had collection data on the white/grey plants.The whitish plants do seem to be much more tolerable of flucuating growth parameters.I'll see if I can get a pic up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spunwhirllin Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 (edited) The pic is a few years old,but you can pretty much distinguish between the two types.They have since become much more distinct. Edited July 6, 2008 by spunwhirllin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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