Growing "Peyote" and "False Peyotes" from Seed

[Teotzlcoatl]

I have the daunting task of trying to grow some of the hardest, slowest growing cacti from seed- The Peyotes and Fasle Peyotes of Mexico and the Southern USA.

I want to grow them 100% organically and not graft a single one on it's journey to adulthood.

I cataorgize the "Peyotes and Fasle Peyotes" as follows-

"Peyote"-This is THE Peyote, and the only accepted Peyote of our modern culture.

Lophophora williamsii

"Lost Peyotes"- Truly Psychoactive Peyotes not currently accepted by our modern culture.

Ariocarpus fissuratus

Ariocarpus kotschoubeyanus

Coryphantha species.

Mammillaria species.

Pelecyphora strobiliformis

Strombocactus disciformis

Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele

Turbinicarpus pseudopectinatus

"Medicinal Peyotes"- Peyote with Medicinal, but not Psychoactive properties.

Epithelantha micromeris

"False Peyotes"- Peyotes which only resemble Lophophora in appearce, but do not have Psychoactive or Medicinal properties.

Astrophytum asterias

Aztekium ritteri

Lophophora diffusa

Obregonia denegrii

(List due to change as we learn more about these cacti)

My plan is to eventually have 3-5 of each of these so that I may preserve the species and the genetics. When they began to flower, I will send seeds out to the community for the cost of shipping, in order to propagate the species and preserve the genetics.

What I'm asking for is some help.

I've only grown cacti from seed once.

So I may indeed fail.(Though I will try again, and again)

Perhaps some of you will take up my quest in an attempt to preserve these beautiful and wonderful medicinal cacti.

If anyone has any suggestions of what species to add to my list, please let me know.

My priority are the “Peyotesâ€, as their habitat is being destoryed the fastest, but eventually I would like to grow ALL suspected psychoactive or medicinal cacti.

I would like to make a comprehensive list of suspected psychoactive or medicinal cacti, please let me know if I’ve missed a species.

I simply cannot believe we overlook the potential of these amazing plants.

Trichocereus and Lophophora are the only cacti we hold in reverence, yet so many other beneifical cacti exist.

Lets get out there and find them!

Edited January 5, 2008 by Teotz'

[Teotzlcoatl]

A link to Mr.Smith's article on the Subject

Comprehensive list of Peyotes-

Ariocarpus agavoides

A. fissuratus

A. kotschoubeyanus

A. retusus

Armatocereus laetus

Astrophytum asterias

A. capricorne

A. myriostigma

Aztekium ritterii

Coryphantha compacta

C. elephantidens

C. macromeris

C. palmerii

C. rosea

Dolichothele longimamma

Epithalantha micromeris

Gymnocalycium spp.

Leuchtenbergia principis

Lophophora williamsii

Lophophora diffusa

Mammillaria spp.

Mammillaria craigii

M. grahamii

M. heydeii

Mamillopsis senilis

Obregonia denegrii

Pelecyphora aselliformis

P. pseudopectinata

Solisia pectinata

Strombocactus disciformis

Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele

T. pseudopectinatus

Comprehensive list of Psychoactive Cacti-

Carnegiea gigantea

Echinocactus spp.

Echinocactus grandis

E. grusonii

E. visnaga

Echinocereus salm-dyckianus

E. triglochidiatus

Epiphyllum spp.

Matucana madisoniorum

Neoraimondia macrostibas

Opuntia cylindrica

O. leptocaulis

Pachycereus pecten-aboriginum

P. pringlei

Selenicereus grandiflorus

Trichocereus species

Please suggest any species that need to be added to the list!

Edited January 5, 2008 by Teotz'

[Teotzlcoatl]

So my first question is what do I use for a germanitating medium.

I was thinking coco coir with fine sand and a bit of rich loam.

What do you guys think?

[Hellonasty]

So my first question is what do I use for a germanitating medium.

I was thinking coco coir with fine sand and a bit of rich loam.

What do you guys think?

You need to find a medium that works for you, your climate and growing conditions. Tell us about these things and an educated response will follow. Will you germinate them under natural or artificial light ?

I personally use:

1/3 River Sand

1/3 Rich organic compost

1/3 Any kind of 1-2mm pourous rock.

I'm not saying this will work for you but I use this to germinate all of my cacti seed and it has been sucessful. Both under natural and artificual light. There are literally thousands upon thousands of combinations out there. Pick one and give it a try.

[Teotzlcoatl]

I'm in the carolina's of the USA (Zone 7).

I will have a Plexi-glass table which will be placed outside (in shade) in April.

I will then began germanitating "peyotes".

They will be protected from the rain, so I can control their water.

I plan on useing baking pans covered by plastic to place the seeds in.

In the winter they will be moved indoors under artifical light.

[SaBReT00tH]

hey teotz,

don't forget Lophophora Diffusa for false peyotes

[Teotzlcoatl]

Aw yes, thank you.

Some more info on Peyotes-

http://www.illuminati.ch/Wissen/Archiv/Tex...ns/Natdrugs.txt

ARIOCARPUS RETUSUS SCHEIDW. - Cactaceae (Peyote Cimarron/Tsuwiri)

-------------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: This cactus has only little to do with the real Peyote. By some Indian tribes it's called Tsuwiri which means "False Peyote" since it has similar effects. By some tribes it's also called chautle or chaute. The Tarahumara Indians tell that Ariocarpus is stronger than Peyote and they use it in their rituals. Other Indian tribes like the Huichol's tell that Ariocarpus is a plant of the devil and that it's really dangerous to use. Some tribes tell that the impure man who searchs peyote finds the false peyote and goes mad, or at least has a bad trip. There are also other species of Ariocarpus which are ritually employed, for example Ariocarpus Fissuratus which is called Sunami and considered stronger than Peyote. If I find more informations I will cover these cactii's in a future release.

USAGE: I don't think it's a very good recreational drug, first we don't know a lot about it and second I think for any normal person it would be quite expensive to buy the needed amount of cactii's, but it may be worth trying if you have the oppurtunity. The cactus may be chewed fresh or dried, probably it may be also brewed in a tea. Start with low doses.

ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: The active principles of A.Retusus are several Phenylethylamine derivates: Hordenine, N-Methyltyramine (0.02%) and trace amounts N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenethylamine and N-methyl-4-B-phenethylamine. A substance called Retusine (3,3',4',7-tetramethoxy-5-hydroxytlavon) is also contained. An interesting thing about Ariocarpus retusus is that pharmacologically the alkaloid content is too low in order to be psychoactive.

EFFECTS: Not much is known, although the effects are reported to be similar to those of Mescaline.

DANGERS: Unfortunately I'm not able to tell about the dangers of the A.Retusus use, but I think there are some risks since the Huichol tell that this cactus is evil. I think Trichoreus Pachanoi or Lophophora Williamsii (Anhalonium Lewinii - Peyote) is the better and safer way to use cactii's, however I know people who want to try everything once.

SOURCES: This cactus, like peyote grows in rocky deserts, I was able to spot an exemplar at Londons Kew Gardens. You may also able to buy it at some greater gardener shop but I only suppose. Unfortunately Ariocarpus is a very, very slow growing cactus and needs years to mature.

CORYPHANTA MACROMERIS - Cactaceae (Donana)

--------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: C.macromeris is valued as medicine among a lot of Indian tribes.

USAGE: In order to eat the cactus the spines are removed and 8-12 of the fresh or dried cactiis are eaten on an empty stomach. They may be chewed or crushed and brewed for 1 hour as tea. One of my references says that approx. 1 kilogram of dried cactiis are needed in order to produce a psychoactive effect. The same reference suggests to perform an extraction. I really wonder why some reference says that 10 cactiis are needed and another says that a kilogram is needed.

ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: The active principle is Macromerine (L-alpha-3,4-dimethoxyphenyl-beta- dimethylaminoethanol), a substance with approx. 1/5 the gram potency of Mescaline. Coryphanta also contains trace amounts of: Normacromerine, N-formylnormacromerine, Tyramine, N-methyltyramine, Hordenine, N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenethylamin, Metanephrin and Synephrin. Other species of Coryphanta which contain Macromerine are: C.compacta, C.pectinada, C.elephantideus, C.runyonii, C.cornifera var. echineus. Species which contain the other minor alkaloids are: C.cornifera, C.durangensis, C.ottonis, C.poselgeriana and C.ramillosa. Other species of Coryphanta have also been reported as hallucinogens, for example C.palmerii. EFFECTS: The effects are reported to be very similar to those of Mescaline. Macromerine is a legal substances in most countries.

DANGERS: This substance should not be taken in high doses along with strong MAOI's. No other dangers are known.

ECHINOCEREUS TRIGLOCHIDIATUS - Cactaceae (Pitallito/Hikuri)

---------------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: The Tarahumara Indians consider both E.Triglochidiatus and E.salmdyckianus a so-called false Peyote. USAGE: Probably the cactus is chewed or brewed as tea however we have no reports of its exact usage.

ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: A tryptamine derivate has been reported.

EFFECTS: We have no reports of its effects, they may differ from those of Mescaline since the active principle is a tryptamine.

DANGERS: Little is known about this cactus, start with low doses.

EPITHELANTHA MICROMERIS - Cactaceae (Hikuli Mulato/Hikuli Rosapara)

----------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: This cactus is another so-called false Peyote of the Tarahumara Indians. Medicine men take Hikuli Mulato to make their sight clearer and permit them to commune with sorcerers. It is taken by runners as stimulant and 'protector,. The Indians also believe it prolongs life. Some botanists consider E.Micromeris a cactus of the species Mamillaria micromeris in a later phase of his life.

USAGE: Exact preparation is not known, probably the cactus may be chewed or brewed as tea.

ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: Alkaloids and triterpenes have been reported.

EFFECTS: Unfortunately we have no reports, they may be similar to mescaline since its a false Peyote however there was no mescaline reported.

DANGERS: We know very little about this cactus, start with low doses.

MAMMILLARIA SENILIS - Cactaceae (Wichuriki/Hikuli)

------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: Among the most important 'false peyotes, of the Tarahumara Indians are several species of Mammillaria, including: M.senilis, M.heyderii, M.craigii, M.grahamii, M.micromeris.

USAGE: Ritually the cactus is split open, sometimes roasted, and the central tissue is used. The top of the plant, divested of its spines, is the most powerful part. Probably a psychoactive tea may also be brewed.

ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-phenylethylamine has been isolated from M.heyderii, a species closely related to M.craigii.

EFFECTS: Deep sleep, during which a person is said to travel great distances, and brilliant colors characterize the intoxication.

DANGERS: Not known, start with small doses.

A non-cactus Lophophora substitute-

ONCIDIUM CEBOLLETA - Orchidaceae (Cebolleta)

------------------ RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: It is suspected to be an hallucinogen, employed as a temporary surrogate of Peyote or Hikuri (Lophophora williamsii).

USAGE: Unfortunately little is known of its use. Probably a tea may be brewed.

ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: An alkaloid has been reported from Oncidium cebolleta. EFFECTS: Unfortunately not known.

DANGERS: Use not recommended, too little is known about this plant.

PACHYCEREUS PECTEN-ABORIGINUM - Cactaceae (Cawe/Wichowaka)

----------------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: Its a plant of many uses among the Indians, the Tarahumara who call the plant Cawe or Wichowaka use it for intoxication. The term Wichowaka also means 'insanity, in the Tarahumara language.

USAGE: The Indians take a drink made from the juice of the young branches as a narcotic. I wonder if brewing a tea from the cactus would work.

ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: Recently the substance 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl-ethylamine and 4 tetra-hydroisoquinoline alkaloids were isolated from P.pecten-aboriginum.

EFFECTS: It is reported to cause dizziness and visual hallucinations. DANGERS: Very little is known, probably quite safe but start with small doses if you want to try.

PELECYPHORA ASELLIFORMIS - Cactaceae (Peyotillo)

------------------------ RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: Although definitive proof must await further field work, there are suspicions that this round cactus may be valued in Mexico as a 'false Peyote,. It is locally known as Peyote and Peyotillo.

USAGE: Not reported, I suppose the cactus is chewed and swallowed, brewing a tea should also work.

ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: The cactus contains trace amounts of Mescaline (too few to be psychoactive) and little amounts of: Anhalidine, Anhaladine, Hordenine, N-methylmescaline, Pellotine, 3-dimethyltrichocereine, B-phenylethylamine, N-methyl-B-phenylethylamine, 3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenylethylamine, N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenylethylamine and 4-methoxy-B-phenylethylamine. Most of these alkaloids are also found in Peyote but in much greater concentration.

EFFECTS: If it really is psychoactive the effects probably are quite similar to those of Peyote.

DANGERS: Unfortunately not known, probably quite safe, start with small doses.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Teotz'

[Teotzlcoatl]

Some more info I found- here

PLANTS CONFUSED WITH OR CALLED PEYOTE

Two factors have led to the confusion of various plants and the name peyote: (1) a similarity of appearance because of pubescence, a globose shape, or growth habit, and (2) a similar physiological effect or use for medicinal or religious purposes. In fact, most of the plants that are sometimes called "peyote" possess both of these characters.

Many alkaloid-containing cacti are commonly called "peyote" but they are not in the genus Lophophora, and, even though some of the alkaloids are the same, probably they have few or no physiological actions similar to the true peyote. Cacti that have at one time or another been called "peyote" or the Spanish diminutive "peyotillo" are:

Ariocarpus fissuratus—more frequently called "living rock" or "chautle" but also "peyote cimarr6n."

A. kotschoubeyanus—usually called "Pezuna de venado" or "pata de venado."

A. retusus—usually called "chautle" or "chaute."

Astrophytum asterias—surprisingly similar in appearance to Lophophora.

A. capricorne—also called "biznaga de estropajo."

A. myriostigma—called "peyote cimarr6n," "mitra," and "birrete de obispo" (bishop's cap or miter).

Aztekium ritterii—another small, globose cactus with superficial resemblance to Lophophora.

Mammillaria (Dolichothele) longimamma—sometimes called "peyotillo."

M. (Solisia) pectinifera

Obregonia denegrii

Pelecyphora aselliformis—commonly called "peyotillo" and sold as such in the native markets. Contains some of the alkaloids possessed by Lophophora, including small amounts of mescaline.

Strombocactus disciformis—similar in appearance to Lophophora and occurring in the same general area as L. diffusa.

Turbinicarpus pseudopectinata

Other plant families, including the Compositae, Crassulaceae, Leguminosae, and Solanaceae, also have representatives that occasionally are called "peyote." A member of the Compositae was first described as a type of peyote by the Spanish physician, Francisco Hernandez, in his early study of the plants of New Spain.[19] In his book he described two peyotes: the first, Peyotl Zacatecensi, clearly was Lophophora, whereas the other, Peyotl Xochimilcensi, apparently was Cacalia cordifolia, a Compositae which had "velvety tubers" and was used medicinally. Other sunflowers of the closely-related genus Senecio have also been called such things as "peyote del Valle de Mexico" and "peyote de Tepic."

"Mescal" is the correct name for the alcoholic beverage obtained from the century plant, Agave americana, but was also used by missionaries and officials of the Bureau of Indian Affairs for peyote. Possibly this was an attempt to confuse Congressmen and the public into thinking that peyote was an "intoxicant" similar to alcohol, but it just may have been a case of incorrect information perpetuated unwittingly.

The name "mescal beans" has also been applied incorrectly to peyote but actually is the common name of Sophora secundiflora of the Leguminosae. The beans of this plant contain cytisine, a toxic pyridine that causes nausea, convulsions, hallucinations, and even death if taken in too large quantities.[20] The colorful red beans have been used for centuries both in Mexico and the United States by the Indians for medicinal and ceremonial purposes, and sometimes the seeds of this desert shrub are worn as necklaces by the leaders of peyote ceremonies. The stimulatory and hallucinatory nature of these beans probably led to the confusion with peyote, especially when the latter occasionally was called "mescal." The probable relationship of the old mescal bean ceremony and the modern peyote cult also may have led to confusion by white men.

Coryphantha compacta

http://www.entheology.org/edoto/anmviewer.asp?a=40&z=5

Epithalantha micromeris

http://www.entheology.org/edoto/anmviewer.asp?a=48&z=5

Pelecyphora aselliformis

http://www.entheology.org/edoto/anmviewer.asp?a=72&z=5

More Psychoactive Cactus Info

Still more Psychoactive Cacti info

Here's some pics I found across the net-

Ariocarpus fissuratus-

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Ariocarpus_fissuratus2_ies.jpg/685px-Ariocarpus_fissuratus2_ies.jpg&key=75baeeaf7e8a4dd9eeae84d33171bf282e4ab2e1b1a83af6fa964fae580d38fa

Aztekium ritterii

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://cittadini.monet.modena.it/cactus/images/ImmaginiCollezioni/ImmaginiGiuseppe/ritt.JPG&key=3f8d12f4cdf86ce04eee17761f08d200e9b26ce223a04b1ab54b2533c56c391a

Dolichothele longimamma

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.tosca.si/zvone/cactusbase/d/10_Dolichothele_longimamma___.jpg&key=05935c11d946ad80fe0d37b9ce450f725b2e7c612816560f17233fe0b654ffba

Epithalantha micromeris

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.botanik.uni-karlsruhe.de/garten/fotos-knoch/Epithelantha%2520micromeris%25201.jpg&key=b247c4c7b1716d8ec5ed3ca7f8e57f944f7e7241529b47cf300b6c52739aa270

Mammillaria craigii

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.desert-tropicals.com/Plants/Cactaceae/Mammillaria_craigii.jpg&key=81adccaf3a331f1cb09492fe238ccf9a4d2648d354ad1dd75b17f2bbf1ab04c5

Pelecyphora aselliformis

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://fichas.infojardin.com/foto-cactus/pelecyphora-aselliformis.jpg&key=4ac6261a5888e70a6ae92f63fe5f7cef020939c1d6c7efaa62b42eedb371600c

Pelecyphora pseudopectinata

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://cactus.aicon.ro/Turbinicarpus%2520pseudopectinatus%25204%252009.03.06.jpg&key=d88aba1eb50bf8b60d063fc0d7a9e2440b7b5c9689c48e33ca1e025670b65784

Solisia pectinata

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://cactus.aicon.ro/Solisia%2520pectinata%252008.01.06.jpg&key=2a136f97b39360c2eb38a6f3a4f4a80e0f07f997c7d3bb10008164e354707725

Strombocactus disciformis

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.cactus-art.biz/note-book/Dictionary/aaa_plant/Strombocactus_disciformis_first_flower_540.jpg&key=e947031587c66904ac3acbd063f824d8af73789da926019119be1bbbf0aebbdb

Turbinicarpus pseudopectinatus

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.freeweb.hu/barnajanos/Cactus/Pics/T/Turbinicarpus_pseudopectinatus_2.jpg&key=ccbfdce918b54be6817040e89bcd89a764b64fba52a984578b1ad22dfad368e9

Now the next step we need to take is begin experimentation.

Thank God it still remains legal to ingest almost all the above cacti.

So if anybody would like to volunteer to donate a cactus or ingest one of these cactuses, please speak up and let's begin!

I believe we should begin with the best candidates and then debate about dosage and preparation until we come to general agreement.

Have people donate cacti.

Volunteers consume them and then write up reports.

I believe some of the best candidates to be-

Ariocarpus agavoides

A. fissuratus

A. kotschoubeyanus

Coryphantha spp.

Epithalantha micromeris

Mammillaria spp.

Pelecyphora aselliformis

P. pseudopectinata

Strombocactus disciformis

Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele

T. pseudopectinatus

What do you guys think?

Edited January 5, 2008 by Teotz'

[Teotzlcoatl]

Strombocactus disciformis seems to be one of the most promising ones...

[tonic]

What do you guys think?

I think you should leave the poor bloody cacti alone and stop posting so many pages of writing. That is what I think.

[XipeTotec]

I think you should leave the poor bloody cacti alone and stop posting so many pages of writing. That is what I think.

why?

[tonic]

why?

Well, because it's freakin' annoying that is why...

Edited January 6, 2008 by Phosphene_Dream

[Teotzlcoatl]

I offered a huge amount of infromation on "Peyotes and False Peyotes" whats wrong with that?

[Ace]

I want to grow them 100% organically and not graft a single one on it's journey to adulthood.

Best of luck with that, but as you have only grown one lot of cacti from seed, you will no doubt encounter many problems. Lack of long-term interest will be the biggest killer - it gets most people in the end. If you do indeed manage to raise them for the term of your life, then you will have a nice collection. If you only intend to do it for a couple years, your collection may suffer. You will also encounter the general growing problems (heat, light, water, feeding, wintering, pests, etc) which can easily wipe out your collection.

That said, if you are truly willing to put in the hard yards with your cacti, I'd be inclined to make an indoor setup. It will cost more due to electricity, but you wont have the problems associated with weather and pest problems will be minimal. Get a fluoro setup with air movement and make a regular watering/feeding schedule for each species. Manage each lot as a whole, but each lot individually (i.e. lophs are different to mamms, as arios are different to turbs). Get out and see competent collectors growing parameters and their specimens and decipher the good and bad points of the advice they share. Develop your own methods from what you learn.

As for not grafting and growing entirely organically - I doubt your interests will last for more than 18 months. Grafting is by far the best way to get a great collection started. By grafting just 2-4 of each species, you will be able to produce enough of your own seeds to start many, many plants. And by using store bought ferts, you will save a huge amount of time and labour in creating herbal teas for them to feed from.

My plan is to eventually have 3-5 of each of these so that I may preserve the species and the genetics. When they began to flower, I will send seeds out to the community for the cost of shipping, in order to propagate the species and preserve the genetics.

Great plan, but believe me and anyone who has grown a large amount of cacti from seed - it is much easier to say that than actually do it. In time, all great collectors should be able to share their plants/seeds with the world, but most become to attached to share (it happens to the best of us). While I would love to do the same as you, after putting in years of hard work and many losses, you too will probably change your goals and hold onto your specimens.

My priority are the “Peyotesâ€, as their habitat is being destoryed the fastest, but eventually I would like to grow ALL suspected psychoactive or medicinal cacti. I simply cannot believe we overlook the potential of these amazing plants. Trichocereus and Lophophora are the only cacti we hold in reverence, yet so many other beneifical cacti exist.

Good stuff. Get some seeds from a good vendor (from seed grown collections, not poached specimens) and go from there. Your list of false peyotes and medicinal cacti is already more than most people will take on over their lifetimes, so I'd stop worrying about finding more species and just grow what you already have. Find those that mean the most to you and grow them the best you can. Trichs and Lophs are just some of the cacti that our community holds in reverence. We also love other rare and endangered species. I personally love Ariocarpus, Astrophytum and Aztekium cacti. Some people prefer others. Just because lophs/trichs contain mescaline doesnt make them any more superior to other species. But some people would think otherwise. It's all about finding species that really tickle your pickle. Grow whatever you like (within legal limits, of course).

As for simple things like potting mixtures, do everyone a HUGE favour and use the fantastic tool that is the Search Engine. It has been used by one or two people in the past and they seemed to have enjoyed the experienced and learnt many things from it. Give it a shot! Who knows, you might already have all your questions answered and you wont need people like us to do the research for you!

EDIT: I think you should leave the poor bloody cacti alone and stop posting so many pages of writing. That is what I think.

That was a bit harsh. I think the list that Teotz has provided is of value and importance to this community, even if it may have been posted previously. Teotz just seems to be a newb with many aspirations (I've been there, as I'm sure most others have been too) who tends to speak moreso than listen (a common trait in newbs and young people - I assume Teotz is a teenager, just going from his/her writing style). At least s/he was nice enough to research and even post information from other sites and collaborate this info on the peyotes of the americas. If it is too much to read, then why not just give it a miss?

Edited January 7, 2008 by Ace

[Teotzlcoatl]

As for not grafting and growing entirely organically - I doubt your interests will last for more than 18 months. Grafting is by far the best way to get a great collection started. By grafting just 2-4 of each species, you will be able to produce enough of your own seeds to start many, many plants. And by using store bought ferts, you will save a huge amount of time and labour in creating herbal teas for them to feed from.

Well perhaps the first 3-5 cactus from each species I will graft and grow inorganically, and then stick to organics with the next batch of seedlings.

Trichs and Lophs are just some of the cacti that our community holds in reverence. We also love other rare and endangered species. I personally love Ariocarpus, Astrophytum and Aztekium cacti. Some people prefer others. Just because lophs/trichs contain mescaline doesnt make them any more superior to other species.

Let me rephrase that- The only cacti which humans use entheogenically in modern times are Lophophora and Trichocereus, I would like to see more cacti being used this way.

As far as "posting to much writing", I thought some people might enjoy it (As I do). If it's to long for you, don't read it.

This thread gives me a place to post all my ideas and get my thoughts flowing, so please bear with me.

My intentions are good, I intend to-

1) Gather knowledge about psychoactive cacti other than Lophophora and Trichocereus.

2) Cultivate and preserve psychoactive cacti species.

3) Test the entheogenic vaule of various species and write full reports on their usage, dosage and effects.

That's not so bad is it?

P.S.- This probably the best site anywhere on the net about "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and I'm rather proud of that.

If anybody knows of a better one, or has any links which I did not have PLEASE post it here.

Thanks for the all the advice Ace!

Edited January 7, 2008 by Teotz'

[Teotzlcoatl]

Updated Lists-

Comprehensive list of Peyotes-

Ariocarpus agavoides

A. fissuratus

A. kotschoubeyanus

A. retusus

Armatocereus laetus

Astrophytum asterias

A. capricorne

A. myriostigma

Aztekium ritterii

Coryphantha compacta

C. elephantidens

C. macromeris

C. palmerii

C. rosea

Dolichothele longimamma

Epithalantha micromeris

Gymnocalycium spp.

Leuchtenbergia principis

Lophophora williamsii

Lophophora diffusa

Mammillaria spp.

Mammillaria craigii

M. grahamii

M. heydeii

Mamillopsis senilis

Obregonia denegrii

Pelecyphora aselliformis

P. pseudopectinata

Solisia pectinata

Strombocactus disciformis

Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele

T. pseudopectinatus

Comprehensive list of Psychoactive Cacti (Other than those listed as "Peyotes")-

Carnegiea gigantea

Echinocactus spp.

Echinocactus grandis

E. grusonii

E. visnaga

Echinocereus salm-dyckianus

E. triglochidiatus

Epiphyllum spp.

Matucana madisoniorum

Neoraimondia macrostibas

Opuntia leptocaulis

Pachycereus pecten-aboriginum

Trichocereus species

Candidates for Ingestion-

Coryphantha species

Epithalantha micromeris

Mammillaria spp.

Pelecyphora aselliformis or P. pseudopectinata

Strombocactus disciformis

Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele or T. pseudopectinatus

Opuntia cylindrica, Selenicereus grandiflorus and Pachycereus pringlei have been removed.

If anybody has any suggestions of what should be moved or what should be added, please speak up!

Are T. pseudopectinatus and P. pseudopectinata the same cactus?

I'm very confused on this...

Their names have been changed recently...and I'm just very confused...

If anybody has all the updated names please post them...

Can anybody (Named Mr.Smith) help me?

Edited January 7, 2008 by Teotz'

[Ace]

Comprehensive list of Psychoactive Cacti-

Carnegiea gigantea

Echinocactus spp.

Echinocactus grandis

E. grusonii

E. visnaga

Echinocereus salm-dyckianus

E. triglochidiatus

Epiphyllum spp.

Matucana madisoniorum

Neoraimondia macrostibas

Opuntia leptocaulis

Pachycereus pecten-aboriginum

Trichocereus species

What about the lophophoras?

The only cacti which humans use entheogenically in modern times are Lophophora and Trichocereus, I would like to see more cacti being used this way.

By who? By yourself, the underground psychedelic community, small tribes throughout the Americas, or someone else? You cannot hope to bring other species to people who are not interested. People mainly consume the lophs and trichs due to their mescaline content (as has been done for millenia). People arent going to consume other species because you would like them to. Most people who grow lophs wont even consume them due to the connection they feel with their plants. People who are intellegent and who have a respect for the rarer species know that they should be conservated, but there will always be clowns who put themselves before the conservation of rare species.

As for using cacti entheogenically in modern times, I can see the practice slowly fading. And that probably isnt such a bad thing. When there are species being wiped out due to people overharvesting and destroying habitats, the fact that most people dont even know that there are cacti that can help you communicate with the divine isnt such a bad thing. I'd much prefer people growing psilocybe mushrooms for such entheogenical practices. They are much faster to cultivate and a lot less resource intensive. And it requires relatively little biomass to achieve psychedelic states of mind. The very fact that lophs are illegal in the US is a great thing. They have been overharvested due to people having free-reign over them without any punishment. Now that they are banned from consumption/cultivation, people are finally taking a bit of a step back (to some extent). With time, I can only hope that the genera is able to make a recovery.

Well perhaps the first 3-5 cactus from each species I will graft and grow inorganically, and then stick to organics with the next batch of seedlings.

I think that would be a much wiser move. You will find that they are much more exciting to grow when grafted and your attention span will stay a little longer than when growing on their own roots. Best of luck on your new hobby.

[mark80]

Strombocactus disciformis seems to be one of the most promising ones...

Why do you say this?

[Teotzlcoatl]

Well, from what I've read it seems to be a good candidate.

It's seems to be considered a true peyote, more-so than a false peyote...

Tho I can't tell you excatly where I got this info...

What cactus do you think would be best suited to begin with?

[Ace]

What cactus do you think would be best suited to begin with?

This question is just the tip of the iceberg. There is only limited info on cacti outside of loph/trichs in regards to mescaline/other activity. What exactly are you looking for? Mescaline containing species, medicinal species (may include other alkaloids), rare and endangered species, species which resemble lophophora (false peyotes) or something else? The cactaceae is such a hugely diverse section of flora that it is hard to pick just one species to start with. Find what you want to work with, then see if its legal, then aquire seeds (in a responsible manner) and go forth and cultivate.

It's seems to be considered a true peyote, more-so than a false peyote...

In what way? It is 'true' because it contains concentrated mescaline-like alkaloids? So do a few of the Ariocarpus species. Are the 'false' peyotes those which resemble the mescaline containing ones, but simply dont contain any mesc? What makes a 'medicinal' cacti medicinal? Alkaloids, phenethylamines (probably not spelt right), a history of use in curing people of sickness, shape, taste, smell, or something else entirely?

I'd recommend doing more research before jumping into things too quick. I can see you going with one species on the hunch that it might be a 'peyote' when it has been falsely labelled, only to give up on this species in order to pursue another. Frankly, as a keen cacti collector, I find that thought a tad worrying and closed-minded...

As far as commonly recognised 'peyotes', I'd recommend looking into A. fissuratus, A. retusus, D. longimamma, A. asterias (not thought to be active, just a loph look-alike), E. micromeris, Mammillaria spp., O. denegrii, P. pseudopectinata, S. disciformis and T. pseudomacrochele. Find any good encyclopaedias with references to cacti as 'peyote' and you will have a starting point.

[mark80]

I spew some garbage sometimes,

Edited January 7, 2008 by mark80

[Teotzlcoatl]

You interest in getting high is what i find most disturbing. Thats all that seems to occur to you not that they are actually living creatures that can be sacrficed for an enlightening experience.

I'm not even going to eat the damn things...

I just want to KNOW what they CAN do...

hmm. So in other words you just copy and paste a bunch of info and pictures and not have any clue what your actually doing or where its coming form?

I'm taking steps toward proving the Entheogenic vaule of these cacti, I personally think that, that is important.

Your both right in that I need to do more research...

Edited January 7, 2008 by Teotz'

[Ace]

You interest in getting high is what i find most disturbing. Thats all that seems to occur to you not that they are actually living creatures that can be sacrficed for an enlightening experience.

This is a very good observation. And one that has been made at the nook on many occasions too, only to have Teotz state that he wants to grow these without the intention of consumption, but the fact that they contain these substances makes it more interesting. Yep, that's the reason I grow my cacti too, but I dont stress out because some of them aren't actives. That's where you need to start seeing the light Teotz - just because a plant/animal doesnt contain a substance that can be abused doesnt make it not worth growing/raising.

Like Mark mentioned, these are things that are alive, and to take their lives because you want to get high is a huge thing on your behalf. If you do intend to grow them for consumption, so be it, it's not our business, and god knows it's better to grow your own than rape wild populations. But dont expect people around these parts to help you out with cultivation methods if your sole intention is to get high. Like it has been said many times before - there are other species which are cool, its just a matter of finding what interests you.

Getting a "dose" out of strombocactus would mean waiting many many years, more so than lophophora.

It should also be mentioned that many plants contain highly toxic compounds, many of which will kill an adult with ease. If one were to consume a plant without much historical info, you may find yourself in a hospital. Who knows what is what with cacti - a lot have been consumed for millenia, others might not have even been tasted. This is probably one of the many reasons that lophs and trichs are the only really popular cacti used in divinitory practise.

[mark80]

I spew some garbage sometimes,

Edited January 7, 2008 by mark80

[Teotzlcoatl]

I want people, possibly including myself to "Test the entheogenic vaule of various species and write full reports on their usage, dosage and effects".

I have stated many times that my last shroom trip scared me, and I'm simply not ready to ingest any powerfully psychoactive substances anytime soon.

There is an article on the nook about how I had panic attacks for months, I believe Mr.Smith started the thread...

Futher more perservation is the name of the game. If I had 100 S. disciformis cactuses I would donate three or four of them to somebody willing to ingest them and give me and the community a full report.

I am not looking to get high. I am searching for new entheogens....which for some reason I find terribly interesting...

Imagine...If we could find one more...ONE more cactus that rivaled Lophophora or Trichocereus how amazing that would be...

I think it's worth it!

I think it's worth the time and the money and the risk!

Is nobody with me?

Edited January 7, 2008 by Teotz'