Watch this space

[Glaukus]

My dodgy attempt at a meme!

[Responsible Choice]

Baby steps, which two years ago would've been considered ridiculous, are still fuckn baby steps by a bunch of babies.... fuckn!

 

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/medical-marijuana-legal-in-australia-what-it-means-for-you/news-story/b61f0238f84be843855c20605bc17ed1

 

According to Katoomba-based GP Teresa Towpik, the benefits could extend beyond ill patients.

Speaking to news.com.au, Dr Towpik said the drug could be grown locally, which could have massive rewards for farmers, distributors and even pickers.

“Why are we importing it, when we could grow our own ethically sourced drug here?” she said. 

 

 

 

Edited February 27 by Responsible Choice

[Yeti101]

Not sure if this is the best place for it, but there is a medical cannabis research assistant job going in Sydney apparently:

https://au.jora.com/job/Medical-Cannabis-Research-Assistant-7b3f45a9c00170d81de795a580fcd123

 

Of course, due to current legislation, there is a lot of bullshit involved, and you will want to take a hard look at the company to see if they are ethical enough to work for (I haven’t checked yet). 

[Insequent]

On 03/03/2019 at 10:22 AM, Yeti101 said:

Of course, due to current legislation, there is a lot of bullshit involved, and you will want to take a hard look at the company to see if they are ethical enough to work for (I haven’t checked yet). 

 

https://www.mybusiness.com.au/management/5138-sky-s-the-limit-for-medicinal-cannabis-industry

 

Seems legit...

[Yeti101]

In NSW the greens have said they will push for legalisation after the next election via a private members bill

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/greens-nsw-plan-to-legalise-regulate-and-licence-cannabis/news-story/e862e0a6598b12e4e36fec4688a2e42b

 

In Victoria, Reason MLC Fiona Patten is calling for a select comittee to advise parliament on legal/regulatory frameworks needed to start sale of cannabis by 2021. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/FionaPattenMLC/status/1103095425010024448

 

(personally I’d trust Fiona on this more than the NSW greens,  but good on them for trying)

[Ethnoob]

You fellas don't want legalisation.  Legalisation will force the government to comply with the united nations or get sanctioned and if you for one minute think that our government gives a single shit about weed over international trade and whatnot you're a fool.  In essence it will force the government to maintain a monopoly over everything from seed to sale and if you or me say fuck the system we go from being rebellious druggies to tax dodging black marketers that are trying to supply children while denying them the funds their schools would get from the legal sales of cannabis.  We'll be demonized for trying to enslave generations for growing a plant and be even greater criminals than we are today because the government will have the public's support since they can go down to the shops and buy their vape cartridges as easily as they can a case of beer today.

 

Do you really want to give the spoils of war to the government and their friends? Do you really believe they will set you free if you agree?  Would you even want to live in a world where cannabis cultivation is in their hands only?  Personally I'd rather keep it illegal and deny them a single shekel.  Fuck them, fuck their agreeing to 100% of the spoils for ending the war and fuck ever agreeing to a plant limit when their buddies get told to grow x amount in a given space.  If we win the war WE should get to set the terms of their surrender and not the other way around and don't think any differently because they literally declared war on us by calling it the war on drugs and fucking each of us over with it.  It might have been through taking your freedom or merely your taxes but each of us has been impacted by it so fuck giving them an inch let alone absolutely everything.

[Yeti101]

17 hours ago, Ethnoob said:

comply with the united nations or get sanctioned

I don't know if you have spent much time talking to people who work for the federal government in the departments responsible for regulating opium production here, but that's kind of where we are already at. One of the reasons the federal government is stuck is because it doesn't want to be responsible for having our opium quota smashed in retaliation for de-scheduling(or so Iv'e heard at least one official say). 

 

17 hours ago, Ethnoob said:

We'll be demonized for trying to enslave generations for growing a plant and be even greater criminals than we are today because the government will have the public's support since they can go down to the shops and buy their vape cartridges as easily as they can a case of beer today.

Slow down and read the story: the greens specifically include grow your own in their plan. 

 

See, the thing with keeping it illegal is that it doesn't work for everyone, even if it works for you. There are plenty of good people whose careers could be destroyed by even a single drug conviction. Could things be worse than the current situation? Maybe. I just don't see how maintaining the current situation is anything other than letting them win. You think your kind of talk scares the shit out of prohibitionists? I can tell you now, it doesn't - it gives them a way to keep communities divided against each other though. 

 

If you have an actual achievable plan for me to not risk jail or my career for growing a bit of weed and/or sparking up a joint that doesn't involve any compromise, then I'm all ears. As far as I'm concerned, if I can grow a bit at home, buy some quality product at a decent price when I want to, and maybe even run a business growing or selling (even if there is a bit of paperwork and restriction on advertising), then that is pretty good. If they want me to pay a bit of tax to pay school teachers and build hospitals, then I'm OK with that too. 

 

[Ethnoob]

12 minutes ago, Yeti101 said:

I don't know if you have spent much time talking to people who work for the federal government in the departments responsible for regulating opium production here, but that's kind of where we are already at. One of the reasons the federal government is stuck is because it doesn't want to be responsible for having our opium quota smashed in retaliation for de-scheduling(or so Iv'e heard at least one official say). 

 

Slow down and read the story: the greens specifically include grow your own in their plan. 

 

See, the thing with keeping it illegal is that it doesn't work for everyone, even if it works for you. There are plenty of good people whose careers could be destroyed by even a single drug conviction. Could things be worse than the current situation? Maybe. I just don't see how maintaining the current situation is anything other than letting them win. You think your kind of talk scares the shit out of prohibitionists? I can tell you now, it doesn't - it gives them a way to keep communities divided against each other though. 

 

If you have an actual achievable plan for me to not risk jail or my career for growing a bit of weed and/or sparking up a joint that doesn't involve any compromise, then I'm all ears. As far as I'm concerned, if I can grow a bit at home, buy some quality product at a decent price when I want to, and maybe even run a business growing or selling (even if there is a bit of paperwork and restriction on advertising), then that is pretty good. If they want me to pay a bit of tax to pay school teachers and build hospitals, then I'm OK with that too. 

 

The UN's convention on narcotics treats cannabis legalization the same as opium in that a national organization needs to be created that controls everything from seed to sale.  Now lets assume for a minute that means home growing is allowed.  You will be liable to buy a license to cultivate, the license will dictate how much product you can produce in a given amount of space, you will give up any rights to privacy you previously had as they'll be able to inspect every inch of everything you own to make sure you're not diverting to the black market and then after all your freedoms have been eroded you have to sell every last scrap to the national cannabis agency for the price they set.  Don't believe me? I encourage you to read the UN's convention on narcotics for yourself.  Now ask yourself how much do you think it will take to enforce a system like that for everyone and if you'd be willing to break the law to avoid their insane prices and requirements.  Congratulations, you're still a criminal while it's 100% legal for them.

 

What we really want is decriminalization where there are no laws on the books as it makes it a free for all.  More than that you want it legislated that any person engaged in the for profit trade of previously illegal goods or services, no names give for obvious reasons, that the only taxes that can apply to them are GST at the point of sale.  Why? To stop those who declared war upon us from sin taxing us without also raising the price of everyday staples like bread and milk too which no politician would be willing to do.  If they're unwilling to do that I'd rather it remain illegal because either way we're fucked and it at least denies them profit too.

[Northerner]

Sounds like you are cutting off your nose to spite your face there.

 

Legalisation is is the only way forward, it's not an if but a when. They wanna tax it? Great. More money for our country. All good.

 

No millions spent on catching and imprisoning potheads, great. No peoples lives destroyed because of immoral laws, great.

 

As soon as personal growing and use is set the floodgate is open. The evil era will have ended. Policing it will be as impossible as it is now, and there'll be less black market to aim at.

 

I don't even smoke but it's obvious it's a no brainer in terms of our economy, social welfare, health system and justice system.

[Responsible Choice]

Yeah, it kinda sounds like you have a pretty set scenario in mind there Noob, and to be fair in this crazy game there are no guarantees and certainly no one-sided outcomes firmly concretised that I can see, as far as massive over-regulation and invasive surveillance goes.

 

I would certainly agree there are more sinister undercurrents riding the wave of legalisation in terms of corporate interest and market share, nepotism and false sentiment from the pollies, but that's business as fucking usual mate. It's the Strayan government; and that means we will have some shitty version of an originally pretty sound proposition more than likely, but I don't think anyone involved is going to be in favour of the kinds of things you've mentioned just to get a bit of weed. Common sense and good 'ol fashioned governmental scepticism still abound in this fair land thank fuck. I reckon you might be surprised how it all plays out; I know I will 

[Ethnoob]

44 minutes ago, Northerner said:

Sounds like you are cutting off your nose to spite your face there.

 

Legalisation is is the only way forward, it's not an if but a when. They wanna tax it? Great. More money for our country. All good.

 

No millions spent on catching and imprisoning potheads, great. No peoples lives destroyed because of immoral laws, great.

 

As soon as personal growing and use is set the floodgate is open. The evil era will have ended. Policing it will be as impossible as it is now, and there'll be less black market to aim at.

 

I don't even smoke but it's obvious it's a no brainer in terms of our economy, social welfare, health system and justice system.

 

The ONLY way I'm wrong is if you convince our politicians to remove Australia as a signatory to the convention on narcotics.  Do you really believe they will do so as a sign of defeat in the war on drugs and suffer the consequences the rest of the world will impose upon us or do you believe they're more likely to reap the rewards of the black market driving prices up without anything negative from outside impacting them at all?

 

I'll let you know exactly what we're in for.  There's only going to be a handful of legal producers in the country and everyone who steps out of their monopoly is going to be demonized as tax dodging, child endangering, black market suppliers, etc. and literally everyone will be on board to hunt us down to the point the government is given the go ahead to finally hunt us down using the power cycles our grow lights produce.

 

Herbal cannabis is going to be grown in massive greenhouses with a handful of tomatoes to ensure that the offgassing of the tomatoes leads to an entirely sterile female crop.  This will then be sold as a premium product for higher prices than what the black market currently commands.  The massive outside crops are where no fucks will be given as they will see the fields not as producing a smokable product but a field of chemical potential.  They're going to see cannabinoids and terpenes only because their individual blends are what they're going to be able to patent and massively profit from.  It might be nice being able to go down to the shops and buy 25 different types of oils that have been made in a standardized way and a handful of nearly perfectly grown and cured buds (they definitely will be harvested early amongst other things) but they absolutely will use their monopoly status along with their so called rigorous testing and whatnot to drive the prices up to crazy levels.

 

These insane prices will see people trying to grow in their backyard which satellites with their shitty resolution can easily detect.  The people who grow indoors will be undone by their power companies.  Even those who manually turn on their lights and use a combination of indoor and outdoor growing will end up being caught as the police will be given the right to invade the privacy of anyone they suspect of cultivation which will be based on the higher electricity usage levels and the times that it was used.

 

Now the general public is going to see all this availability and call us pieces of shit for going outside the system.  They will see it as avoiding the same taxes they pay making it unfair, they will be told that we're doing so to illegally profit, etc. and when you have 90% of the population cheering the government on you can kiss your freedom goodbye. 

 

In short it will always be legal for them but never us regardless of how much you're willing to pay for your license.  Like you said it will be an unworkable system and they will use that very fact to shut us down.

 

17 minutes ago, Responsible Choice said:

Yeah, it kinda sounds like you have a pretty set scenario in mind there Noob, and to be fair in this crazy game there are no guarantees and certainly no one-sided outcomes firmly concretised that I can see, as far as massive over-regulation and invasive surveillance goes.

 

I would certainly agree there are more sinister undercurrents riding the wave of legalisation in terms of corporate interest and market share, nepotism and false sentiment from the pollies, but that's business as fucking usual mate. It's the Strayan government; and that means we will have some shitty version of an originally pretty sound proposition more than likely, but I don't think anyone involved is going to be in favour of the kinds of things you've mentioned just to get a bit of weed. Common sense and good 'ol fashioned governmental scepticism still abound in this fair land thank fuck. I reckon you might be surprised how it all plays out; I know I will 

 

History has proven that governments aren't there for the people and their bottom line revolves around money.  Since they are assured of a monopoly they absolutely will take it and fight with everything they can to defend it.  If you think it's bad now with LEO just wait until they have the right to collect every last cent while simultaneously being able to imprison those of us that dare to step outside of their monopoly.

 

I'm not wrong with the things I've said at all.  The war will continue with the efforts doubled when they declare themselves losers and get to reap the spoils.

[Northerner]

If we take the plant off our narcotic list it will no longer be a narcotic in Australia, so international narcotic regulations that apply locally are irrelevant. Spain, Uruguay and Canada are all part of the UN and have legalised it without the insane fallout you are talking about. Spain is one of the main opiate growers in the world also.

 

You're freaking out, but if the models of other countries are anything to go by your fears are completely unfounded. We live in Australia, not North Korea.

 

It's just a mostly harmless plant man. It's not going to be the end of society as we know it if people are allowed to own it. Geez.

[Northerner]

13 minutes ago, Ethnoob said:

If you think it's bad now with LEO just wait until they have the right to collect every last cent while simultaneously being able to imprison those of us that dare to step outside of their monopoly.

Ever heard of the "proceeds of crime" act?

 

Already they can take everything you own for growing weed and imprison you. I don't see how it can get worse? Capital punishment?

[Ethnoob]

3 minutes ago, Northerner said:

Ever heard of the "proceeds of crime" act?

 

Already they can take everything you own for growing weed and imprison you. I don't see how it can get worse? Capital punishment?

You're not wrong but when their masters have been given the market it will be taken up a notch.

[Yeti101]

@Ethnoob, short of a total collapse of the state and a near-apocalyptic interregnum there are never going to be “no laws on the books” about this (certainly not in our lifetimes). I say we call it a day on this discussion and agree to disagree (or at least move the discussion to another thread). 

[Ethnoob]

4 hours ago, Yeti101 said:

@Ethnoob, short of a total collapse of the state and a near-apocalyptic interregnum there are never going to be “no laws on the books” about this (certainly not in our lifetimes). I say we call it a day on this discussion and agree to disagree (or at least move the discussion to another thread). 

That's my point exactly.  If they follow the laws as they're currently laid out we're shit out of luck.  We'll say yes, you lost, here's the spoils and we're still criminals.  When in human history has the loser of a war been given such terms?  From my perspective we either win the war on drugs and give them everything or we lose and give them everything which makes denying them the cause we should fight for.  If we decide that they won't get the market to themselves we have to decide to go against international law and be willing to suffer the consequences or remove the laws entirely and stick our finger up to the UN using technicality to set us free.

 

It's really that simple.  Either we give them everything or we deny them.  What would you give the side who declared war against you and lost? Personally I'd give them nothing and make them consider themselves lucky to remain alive.

[Insequent]

6 hours ago, Ethnoob said:

It's really that simple.  Either we give them everything or we deny them.  What would you give the side who declared war against you and lost? Personally I'd give them nothing and make them consider themselves lucky to remain alive.

 

The change is inevitable, I think. We'll see legalization and we'll have won the war. And you're quite right, I believe; after all what is it they're doing but commoditizing another aspect of the commons, a piece of nature which no person has the right over which to claim ownership? But this is the way capitalism forges it's way toward inevitable collapse, You and I are still a part of this capitalist society and we are corralled to play by the rules to a greater extent. 

 

Winning or losing the argument over the war on drugs won't be decided with the legalization of cannabis, but it will be a big step. And I tend to think, given the way things have panned out in other countries, the atmosphere around cannabis will dramatically improve, not to mention the lives of many folk who would otherwise be adversely affected if it were to remain as it is now. 

 

Let em take the spoils (and live).... for now. Perhaps if we continue to play within their rule set, with a little patience we'll be able to guide things more toward our way of liking. 

 

I love that you have brought this side of the debate to light, ethnoob. Your viewpoint has highlighted an intrinsic failing in the way the system works and I don't think one can fully understand one aspect (like cannabis) without seeing where it lies within the bigger picture. I agree with Yeti, though; perhaps we should turf this to it's own thread so folk can continue to discuss it if they want.

[Insequent]

https://www.medicaldaily.com/marijuana-legalization-usa-2019-new-senate-bill-aims-nationwide-adoption-430680

[Responsible Choice]

Back up vocation engaged!

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-10/australian-scientist-becomes-revered-hindu-holy-man/10879628

 

[Insequent]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/medical-cannabis-uk-greater-manchester-cheadle-the-beeches-treatment-a8816011.html

 

He told The Times newspaper that patients will pay about £200 to see a doctor and then £600 to £700 a month for a private prescription.

 

...That's AU$1107.00 to AU$1290.00 a month!

 

I've seen quoted figures of AU25000 up to AU$48000.00 a year for medicinal cannabis to treat childhood epilepsy in OZ.  Couple the lack of any PBS subsidy for the script with the currently ridiculous process of a doctor obtaining permission to prescribe, leaves me pondering how anyone other than the very wealthy could afford this. I know of 2 families in my area who are effectively treating an epileptic child with home-made, whole-plant oil. They originally sourced the oil on the black market, and the projected cost if they continued was between $2100.00 and $4000.00 a year.

 

One hopes the decision to add MC to the PBS won't take too long. Still a bit of work to do, methinks...

Edited March 12 by Insequent

[Northerner]

There's nothing wrong with home made plant oil, though it's no where near as convenient, and depending on the source plants and the skill of the person extracting it could be variable quality. But I guess that's not the point.

 

The government could just approve a lot of grower and processor licenses and create an oversupply which would dramatically decrease the price for people who need it, whilst simultaneously grabbing the same amount of taxes due to increased sales. Adding another medical gouge onto our already huge PBS budget that comes out of all of our pockets isn't in the publics' best interest. It's not even a proprietary drug, geez, it's been used for 1000's of years by people.

 

I know the cats don't want it to be cheap, but the reality is it is just a plant. There needs to be someone who can stand up and call bullshit in parliament, but the bigger war of even getting it legalised is yet to be won... That step comes next.

[Northerner]

Reading on the topic, the other part of the market that is not regulated but needs to be, or needs competition, is the pharmacies themselves. They are buying in MC products and then putting %140+ markup on them.

 

I know pharmacies are retail outlets and need to make a profit, but they don't take the sick for a ride like that with other prescription medicines.

 

It's the wild west atm, and some are digging gold. But the rush will end.

[Insequent]

7 hours ago, Northerner said:

There's nothing wrong with home made plant oil, though it's no where near as convenient, and depending on the source plants and the skill of the person extracting it could be variable quality. But I guess that's not the point.

 

Yeah but it is a good point. And as a generalization, quite accurate. Most folk are able to easily make the oil, but how do you know the (in this case) right CBD content, consistency of production etc? Originally both these families I mentioned got their product, produced by an industrial chemist, on the black market. It is a quality product made specifically with high CBD content for childhood epilepsy. They had some hit-and-miss attempts when they first started themselves, They've managed to source some good plant base and set up a home grow (at no small outlay), refined the recipe to get the best results, and gone from there. They're fairly consistently getting the same results they got from the chemist's oil now.

 

8 hours ago, Northerner said:

Reading on the topic, the other part of the market that is not regulated but needs to be, or needs competition, is the pharmacies themselves. They are buying in MC products and then putting %140+ markup on them.

 

 I have heard this quoted in some media. I've spoken with a number of pharmacists, none of whom sell any MC products, and they are saying it's a problem but that 140% figure is the upper end, with the average markup lower (still way too high, I would wager). Not sure how much faith I can place in this though and I have no idea how this mark up compares to what they apply to their other products. Another thing to consider; what requirements are the government imposing on the site storage of MC, and the associated cost to the pharmacy? 

 

I agree about the regulation. Perhaps they should scrape some of the regulations off access to MC and swap them for some regulation of the pharmacies...

[Northerner]

It's good to hear they've got the hang of it.

 

I don't see why the government would impose any more security measures on on MC than they do methadone or other opioids, which currently all pharmacies need is a lockable fridge.

 

Recommended prices for prescription meds are set by manufacturers which are about 15% markup on the wholesale price. Of course pharmacies start their own generic brands and get these things made in bulk and sell it even cheaper with greater markup, but that is a service as well as a retail product, another step that provides better value for the customer as well as earning more for the pharmacy. People will travel to buy cheaper drugs too, and slow sales in retail often means closed doors because of the high overheads. No pricing regulation required

 

I asked my wife who worked for a long time in a pharmacy, that's how I got this information.

 

If there was another 100,000 customers looking for MC and one outlet set a minimum profit point there would be a race to the bottom to try and capture the market. Sometimes capitalism does work. The government just needs to stop being such fucktards about handing out scripts for that to happen though.

Edited March 13 by Northerner