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NSW Government to seize babies of mothers who use drugs

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Is that a quote from "Mein Kampf"? :P

One of the first things I learnt in biology at school was the balance of population vs resources [specifically predator vs prey]. Almost every successfull society and culture that ultimately failed did so because of ignroance or arrogance about their resource vs population balance. It is the same argument today when people counter the overpopulation discussion with statements like 'we'll invent our way out of trouble'. I think that is ultimately arrogant and puts us ina position where we are vulnerable. So once you accept population targets of some type then you also have to address a mechanism. Your reference to Hitler is out of place here because he was not interested in population control, but rather in changing the make up of the population. That is not what I proposed, I merely proposed that certian political and economic forces currently skew the population growth into an undesirable direction. please explain to me how reducing the number of kids in educated, secure families while increasing the number of kids in poor, violent, criminal and stressed families is a positive outcome for any population, considering that we now know that such conditions don't only hurt the physical and psychological make up of the present generation but also several generation thereafter via epigenetic forces, let alone social consequences?

But in all seriousness, policies like those you propose cannot possibly lead to good.

What everyone seems to ingore is that we already have these policies except that they are in reverse. We already influence birthrates in various demographics via government policies. Why not make it transparent and add an educaitonal component? We need to learn and take a test so we can drive on the road, but we don't need to do any such preparations for raising kids? Seems like our priorities are wrong if we really value kids. How are kids helped by allowing parents to willy nilly procreate and bring more and more misery into this world?

We all have ideas about what kind of people we should have in our society, and how do you determine who gets to decide what kind of people can procreate?

The current system leads us to a pretty fucked up society that is devolving pretty rapidly. Just look at the USA and you know where we are heading. And where will they be in 50 years? if uneducated and poor people keep breeding at triple the rate of educated secure people then we will end up creating more and more of a class divergence and hence more and more social tensions. It's all noble to say that everyone should breed as they feel like, but if we know that this will end in disaster then is that really such a noble thing?

I just think that if we put policies in place that would allow for roughly equal procreation across the various demographics then we at least maintain a status quo, which has to be a better option than to keep going where we are heading.

Keep in mind that I really don't give a shit. I don't have kids and hence any of this won't affect me or my non-existent offspring. I am just pointing out the problem and not shying away from radical solutions.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dilute the genepool" or "anti-evolution". Nothing is really anti-evolution. Evolution is what occurs when there is diversity in a population and external pressures are imposed on that population. Under certain conditions there will be a certain set of pressures, and under another there will be another set of pressures. It all leads to changing genetic characteristics within populations.

Evolution is about adapting to the pressures as you state yourself. however, how are the masses of uneducated and poor better equipped to deal with the emerging sets of pressures? They are not. In fact when the pressure increases they rely on their smarter and richer cohorts to bail them out. So in a technologically advanced society the poor and uneducated people are poorly adapted and hence if the species is evolving towards technological advance, the way our policies support increased breeding of the poor demographic is antievolution. if we did what the tea party wants and simply let all poor people starve to death and die from lack of healthcare then evolution would proceed as intended, but our social policies [rightly] don't allow this. That's why I think we need policies to correct that bias. You can't on one hand have a good social net and on the other allow the main demographic that requires it to put disproportionate strain on it.

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I wouldn't be too concerned about overpopulation, unicef and the WHO have been working on that "problem" for years. People like Bill gates and the Rockerfellers have pumped millions into their eugenics programs and the resulting vaccines have been used to sterilise many thousands of women and girls of child bearing age all around the world.

Human chorionic gonadotrpin has been found to be present in vaccines from many third world countries. Free tetanus vaccines that were offered to young women of childbearing age for years in countries such as Tanzania, Nigeria, Mexico, and the Philippines, were found to contain human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG), which causes spontaneous abortions if the woman becomes pregnant.

I don't see it as a great leap to brand someone as lower form of life (trailer trash would be one term) and then look for ways to stop them breeding with whatever methods you can afford to deploy. This type of elitism is no different from Hitlers ideology of a master race.

It's easy to focus on poor uneducated people, but I don't see anyone pointing the finger at middle class families that can afford IVF. Sometimes when they are implanted they have multiple births as a result and some of them do that several times and end up with very large families. Many times they are entitled to benefits and tax breaks and they cost the taxpayers much more than your average "houso" scumbag or trailer trash or any other derogatory term you can think of. They are also entitled to all the taxpayer funded health services that are associated with childcare.

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has anyone seen the movie called idiocracy?

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remember please, that we are talking about Australia,

we are talking about proposed laws for Australia.

you have shown that you will believe any convenient lie to get a chance to fuck with parents and their children.

over population (in australia!, sheesh i thought that went without saying), is a lie.

that's why you scare me darklight and friends. because it sounds like you want to hurt my family. or rather you are so dumb you don't see the danger in what you propose and will believe any lie to maintain your scary position.

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I want you liars to stay away from me and my kids

keep your fucking policy away from my freedom to have children

edit: go ahead, belittle the fact that you are a danger to me.

this is not about the dole, this is about birthrate and restricting birthrate

Edited by Sonny Jim

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i find it truly scary that even torsten has zero respect for the basic freedoms that make humanity humane.

do i really have to explain how dangerous such gov power can be. honestly, who am i talking to?

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Sonny Jim, it's your inability to discuss things rationally with others and your insiistence on doing your own thing that ultimately makes laws necessary, to prevent to much damage to the community as a whole. Government is merely a beaurocratic extension of the village elders, it's a bit crap but it's necessary. You are your own worse enemy - by rejecting the wider community, you force the wider community to develop firm tactics to prevent you from hurting other people or the community as a whole. Learn to treat people here with more respect, and you'll be surprised at the response. Reject us out of hand, and expect the same treatment in reverse.

Global population is a serious problem, and I have long sought a decent discussion on it, so long as it doesn't support eugenics, or the killing of already existing people. Which means, a discussion on contraception and the ability of people to sensibly choose whether they have children or how many they choose to have based upon educational support and wider community consultation. Since the "village" (community) supports everything we do, then we should support the village. If people can't make the right decisions by themselves, it ends up being the government who decides for you. And you better hope it's the "liberal" community values led left-wing who might listen to your opinion and not the ultra-conservative right-wing who make the decisions based upon some thousands of years old moral imperative which doesn't make sense any more.

And who stole the word "liberal" for f*cks sake? I propose we rebrand those psychotic nutters so that people aren't continually brainwashed into thinking something that, to the educated, is patently bullshit.

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I want you liars to stay away from me and my kids

keep your fucking policy away from my freedom to have children

edit: go ahead, belittle the fact that you are a danger to me.

this is not about the dole, this is about birthrate and restricting birthrate

Seriously mate, get some help. The only person who is talking about people coming near you and your kids is you

Get a grip, make an appointment with a professional. You sound like you are a bigger danger to those around you than any of the straw men you keep putting up

And yes, this discussion is now also about global overpopulation as well as local, it diverged a couple of pages ago as threads do.

The fact that you keep saying overpopulation is a lie is never going to make it one. One of the problems of overpopulation is the loss of ability to support all citizens fairly, which in our society includes welfare for the disadvantaged, who at any point in time includes some of us here.

I'm sorry you feel targeted, but you need to look at why you think this is, because nobody is coming for you. The only place this is happening is in your head. Nobody here sets policy or legislation

Please, make an appointment with someone.

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Human chorionic gonadotrpin has been found to be present in vaccines from many third world countries. Free tetanus vaccines that were offered to young women of childbearing age for years in countries such as Tanzania, Nigeria, Mexico, and the Philippines, were found to contain human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG), which causes spontaneous abortions if the woman becomes pregnant.

**Triple facepalm** I forgot we had those people still here.

It's easy to focus on poor uneducated people, but I don't see anyone pointing the finger at middle class families that can afford IVF. Sometimes when they are implanted they have multiple births as a result and some of them do that several times and end up with very large families. Many times they are entitled to benefits and tax breaks and they cost the taxpayers much more than your average "houso" scumbag or trailer trash or any other derogatory term you can think of. They are also entitled to all the taxpayer funded health services that are associated with childcare.

One person's best mate is another person's trailer trash. I really hate to see the term used here. There is also a high degree of permanence implied in the term. Like 'drug addict'. That allows for people to assume that someone in a situation never, ever changes and cannot move around between economic groups, and so should be further disadvantaged with social sanctions. It also implies a range of problems many of which may not exist, but which may also exist outside the target group without acknowledgement

IVS doesn't skew the population statistics at all in any direction.

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**Triple facepalm** I forgot we had those people still here.

One person's best mate is another person's trailer trash. I really hate to see the term used here. There is also a high degree of permanence implied in the term. Like 'drug addict'. That allows for people to assume that someone in a situation never, ever changes and cannot move around between economic groups, and so should be further disadvantaged with social sanctions. It also implies a range of problems many of which may not exist, but which may also exist outside the target group without acknowledgement

IVS doesn't skew the population statistics at all in any direction.

Triple facepalm ?

Dr. Haruna Kaita, a pharmaceutical scientist and Dean of the Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences of Ahmadu Bello University in Zaria verified with Gas Chromatography (GC) and Radio-Immuno assay that the vaccines were contaminated, sorry if science offends you.

The trailer trash comment was from Torsten. I just repeated it & you took it out of context and let your imagination run away with you.

And I never inferred any relevance to IVF skewing population statistics that was a figment your imagination. My reference was regarding the benefits the parents receive for the offspring off those treatments receive and the burden to the taxpayer. If we are going to discuss population control why should people who can afford to buy babies be exempt from the discussion ?

Edit: You accused me of vitriol in a thread recently about bushfires, when you had taken a comment not directed at you personally and got offended (which I repeatedly apologised for even though I was under considerable duress at the time and didn't feel it was necessary) when asked by you to defend my statements I provided a link with the relevant info you requested but you chose to stay on your high horse and never conceded any ground.

Now you come back with this pompous arrogant attitude trying to score points off me with your demeaning comments.

If that makes you feel good or important then good for you.

I hope you have an interesting life. :)

Edited by Sally

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Dr. Haruna Kaita, a pharmaceutical scientist and Dean of the Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences of Ahmadu Bello University in Zaria verified with Gas Chromatography (GC) and Radio-Immuno assay that the vaccines were contaminated

Contaminated vaccines do not equal a conspiracy theory. I'd be interested to see if those results from the same batches were replicated in other laboratories as it would make for beter science. Do you believe this was deliberate? Do you have the publications to support this? I would be interested in seeing them.

I tend not to believe in conspiracy theories. However if the information you provide is scientifically verified I would love to see how the results and the information spread throughout the scientific community, whether that particular defect was batch or process related and whether it was corrected

The trailer trash comment was from Torsten. I just repeated it & you took it out of context and let your imagination run away with you.

I take exception to anyone using the term. No need for you to take it personally, or even remove it from your vocabulary. The fact that I don't like it only means that. Not only has T mentioned it ( and it's somewhere we disagree ), but several other members aside from you have used it. My imagination doesn't come into it

And I never inferred any relevance to IVF skewing population statistics that was a figment your imagination.

Ah, you're right, sorry I got distracted with multiple quotes. You didn't draw that bow

My reference was regarding the benefits the parents receive for the offspring off those treatments receive and the burden to the taxpayer. If we are going to discuss population control why should people who can afford to buy babies be exempt from the discussion ?

Fair enough. I'd include any kind of middle class welfare in with that argument.

I hope you have an interesting life. :)

Oh hell yes. I do, it's kind of you to mention it. And if you think this is pompous, just keep going. I'm saving the best for later :devil:

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and torsten, the argument that gov already does this, that we just need to do it better.

well I know the gov already takes children unfairly, I have written about that in the recent days.

why don't you people understand how terrifying it would be to become pregnant with a child and have some bullshit lie about resource restriction let the gov come and make you have an abortion because that's where this kind of shit leads...no?

it's all about wealth and power consolidation, you people will get no extra resources from the gov by fucking with my freedom. I am sorry that's not obvious, I recommend refreshing your historical perspective (and preset day) on the facts concerning planned/forced austerity.

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I'm sorry you feel targeted, but you need to look at why you think this is, because nobody is coming for you. The only place this is happening is in your head. Nobody here sets policy or legislation

no but you will vote for policy that does and it seems like you will do so on mass. very scary, not for my family personally, my child is getting a bit old to be messed with but there's so many poor young families out here and I know they are already at the rough end of the stick with this tyranny.

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we (me, you and every australian but a few) have already shown the financial oligarchy we won't protect children unfairly targeted by docs, so it's will get worse but the fact it now has popular support complete with state produced talking points tells me we are in for hard times never before seen in the modern west. That's scary.

edit: wait! nazi germany was fairly modern west :o

important modern particle physics came out of that part of the world and time, they were pretty sophisticated.

Edited by Sonny Jim

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I can't say that I believe in conspiracy theories either, but when I see a plethora of evidence leading to a surreptitious population control with the money trail leading back to the Rockerfellers & the world bank I have to wonder.

The first statement I made above (in regards to unicef & the WHO)was really meant to be a bit of sarcasm to make people think, but there is a wealth of evidence that leads me to believe it's really happening.

In 1994 hCG was found in vials of tetanus vaccine

In 1995, the Catholic Women’s League of the Philippines won a court order halting a UNICEF anti-tetanus program because the vaccine had been laced with B-hCG, a hormone that sterilizes and causes miscarriages in its recipients. The Supreme Court of the Philippines found the surreptitious sterilization program had already vaccinated three million women, aged 12 to 45. B-hCG-laced vaccine was also found in at least four other developing countries.

There are several patents with a strong association to this type of population control. I haven't looked into it for over a decade but I found this after a quick search - this could easily be argued to be irrelevant to this issue as the M.O. of the vaccine in that the patent requires multiple doses, so I'm not providing it as evidence of any sort just to establish that this type of research is happening specifically regarding hCG linked to tetanus toxoid as a means to implement mass birth control.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5733553.html

From the patent in the above link (note the Indian-US connection)

Population is growing at a rapid pace in many economically developing countries and there is a continuing need of an alternate method for regulation of fertility. We proposed several years back a birth control vaccine which induces the formation of antibodies against the human pregnancy hormone, the human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). These inventions are described in patents issued in India, U.S.A. and several other countries. (Ref. EP 204566, JP 62286928, CA 1239346, U.S. Pat. No. 4,780,312, CN 8603854). We describe now another invention which generates antibody response of a long duration against hCG after a single or a limited number of injections.

From the Lancet 11th june 1998 p 1296

Allied with the WHO in the development of an anti-fertility vaccine (AFV) using hCG with tetanus and other carriers have been UNFPA, the UN Development Programme (UNDP), the World Bank, the Population Council, the Rockefeller Foundation, the All India Institute of Medical Sciences, and a number of universities, including Uppsala, Helsinki, and Ohio State.(5) The U.S. National Institute of Child Health and Human Development (part of NIH) was the supplier of the hCG hormone in some of the AFV experiments.

If that's not a conspiracy it's an incredible cluster of coincidences.

Edited by Sally
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Define : Conspiracy

con·spir·a·cy (kschwa.gifn-spîrprime.gifschwa.gif-semacr.gif)

n. pl. con·spir·a·cies
1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.

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Wow, this discussion is getting a tad passionate for my liking haha. I'll just leave this here and bow my way out...

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I use the term trailer trash because everyone knows what it is. rather than having to put up a long description of the exact socioeconomic demographic. sue me.

Now, as we all know what that demographic is, we also have a pretty good idea what to expect from them. The way they vote based on mediahype rather than an understanding of policies. The level of violence at home and externally that is statistically significantly higher than the opposite demographic. The divorce rate, the low level of education of the next generation, the level of crime, etc

Now add to this that they have triple the birthrate of the educated end of the demographic.

Now tell me again who is playing population control? Control is not just a downward trend, but also a trend of pushing out by disproportionate increase.

So if the trend continues, who will end up electing the government each time and on what basis?

The christians, jews and muslims all know that if you want to control a population you simple outbreed it. That's is at the core of all religions, but it does not stop at religion.

That is why we see countries that have no social safety net end up with an exploding lower class.

Just to be clear, I am not against any demographic breeding at the national average. No one should be disadvantaged. A bithrate of 2.0 would bring about a decline in population, so that would be a good start. I think we need to take collective responsibility and ensure that any population growth is slow and stable. We put limits on immigration for exactly the same reasons, but somehow we are blind to the same problems being created in our midst.

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"The christians, jews and muslims all know that if you want to control a population you simple outbreed it."

"we all know what that demographic is, we also have a pretty good idea what to expect from them. The way they vote based on mediahype rather than an understanding of policies. The level of violence at home and externally that is statistically significantly higher than the opposite demographic. The divorce rate, the low level of education of the next generation, the level of crime, etc"

generalisations like this are ridiculous. i have met 10 year olds with a more mature approach to the issue.

ime it's useless arguing with torsten. after observing his posts on and off for a couple of years, i think he has little of value to contribute other than knowledge about drugs and plants. this is only my opinion.

Edited by Seldom

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I dunno, I think he's raised some valid points. It's hard to have a rational discussion about something like this without offending someone. To sugar coat it and keep it PC is really just a way of avoiding facts.

There is a definite balance towards higher birthrates in lower socio-economic groups, that's undeniable. In the long term it's only ever going to be beneficial to a nation needing large of amounts of unskilled labour.

With the new paradigm of corporate control of course it's going to be beneficial to corporate controlled governments to have a population where the majority respond to media hype/hypnosis and vote the way they're told.

& it's not just the Jews Moslems and Christians that have applied that tactic to solve a problem, it was official policy in Australia to out breed the Aboriginals so it certainly happens.

As for the trailer trash comment, it doesn't offend me in the slightest even though I raised that point above. I live smack in the middle of that socio economic group and although they live in houses calling them trash is really sugar coating it in some cases. It's just the minority of decent ones that have to wear that label that I feel for.

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but torsten

what about the fact that the ignorant masses you are worried about were created by gov policy i.e. the systematic dumbing down of the population via the education system and weaponised "bread and circus" style culture.

why does it then follow that increasing gov power will be a good thing? isn't that just playing into the trap set by the oligarchy i.e. destroy prosperity over many decades (fabian style) to consolidate control because it gets the massed to agree to their own extermination/mistreatment/discrimination by their own gov.

that's why I wrote to you and darklight before in this thread to remind you that

it's all about wealth and power consolidation, you people will get no extra resources from the gov by fucking with my freedom. I am sorry that's not obvious, I recommend refreshing your historical perspective (and preset day) on the facts concerning planned/forced austerity

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what worries me the most is that proponents of increasing gov power seem in this thread seem to think that the gov is their friend and somehow out to help them but no serious student of the topic could get passed their first few months of study on any just about any gov in the world to realise gov is only the puppet of the oligarchy and the oligarchy almost by definition are almost always very dangerous people....you might ask who but only the truly ignorant narcissist would lust after the power to fuck with and steal from people they are supposed to be looking after...when they are already rich so have no need to steal and fuck people over?

sure, in a world where the people didn't live under increasing tyranny gov power would be less of in issue but in this world it is EVERYTHING!, pick a time and place, any. and show me how this isn't an obvious fact of history.

maybe you totally trust gov?...it seems like it....maybe you are gov? just joking :) really I just want to understand because y'all scare me. Do you worry about it in the same way i do.

Do you think I am just too stupid to understand the wisdom of your idea of what tough love should be? and if you just had the chance to do it I would realise you are right?

^^^because that's what I am scared of.

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sorry three post, I just wanted to make it clear that.

"ime it's useless arguing with torsten. after observing his posts on and off for a couple of years, i think he has little of value to contribute other than knowledge about drugs and plants. this is only my opinion."

I have been reading this forum for maybe 15 years (has it been going that long? I am sure I was reading this forum in my late teens/early twenties) and I think that's unfair about torsten but I am sure he is thick skinned enough to not be phased, Anyway, I am very happy to argue with everyone in this thread especially torsten because I am genuinely needing to understand this mind set. I have a family member who would probably agree with torsten but he won't talk to me about it anymore.... but I really want to keep the discussion going.... but maintain that I want "you people" to stay away from my freedom to have children, if you need to over look facts to maintain your argument then that's ok I guess..in the interest of diplomacy/keeping the discussion going....because "you people" scare me.

or maybe it's not about overlooking fact, maybe it's about how we feel about humanity deep down because I know proponents of increased gov power use facts to back up their arguments. What I am politely trying to get at is this; I actually would have been less sensitive to the dangers of proposed laws this year, I actually had less love for humanity until I had kids, I wouldn't have been as horrified by DOCS tyranny before I had children.

somethings you can learn from being clever but somethings you must learn from experience....the horror of destroying the family is less obvious to someone who has less understanding of family due to never being charged with having to take care of offspring.

I am sorry if that offends torsten and darklight but remember we are trying to be frank and I will accept or at least ponder torsten's generalizations if he will at least ponder my generalisation about not having a certain experience and the way it might effect his overall view of humanity.

Edited by Sonny Jim

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Because the alternative to government is what? Some kind of fucked up anarchy? Capitalism with no control?

People have fought long and hard to make the governments of our world more democratic and accountable, I see that as a huge improvement than having no controls at all. Why? Because if we let them, the vast corporations will take control, become your government, and you will have no say whatsoever in how they treat people or the planet.

Government isn't great, but to some extent, it is accountable to the people. The very wealthy are not. Neither are they interested in your well-being, nor that of the planet.

It's a tough choice, but I have long since come to the conclusion that government over corporate power is a far more favourable thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Because if we let them, the vast corporations will take control, become your government, and you will have no say whatsoever in how they treat people or the planet.

^ This has already happened.

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