The Currency Revolution - With Bitcoin

[qwertyuiop]

Wow, didn't realize this thread took off! Thought it'd died and my casual 'hey Bitcoins changed by x% this week, you should take the time to check em' out' line was getting tiresome. Glad to see at least some discussion surrounding them.

Firstly I'd like to address the comments regarding it's heavy fluctuations particularly the largest so called bubble pop from 266 to >60 for a short period. This is largely due to the centralization of trading done by MtGox as at0m correctly pointed out. This gives attackers the ability to clog up the market with DDOS attacks and flooding with micro trades -> leads to trade engine lag. There where points during this where the lag was upwards of 1000 seconds. That's like placing your buy or sell order and gambling that in 1000 seconds it'll still be a wise move (based on the motives you originally had) ... It severely perpetuated panic sells dropping the price quite a bit, while only the attackers could know when to buy at the lowest point (once they stop the flooding) ...MtGox has implemented more protective measures after this and a subsequent attack after this demonstrated to be less than effective. (This attacker/group/botnet owner/rentee) has moved onto other targets like the silkroad, bitcoin store , maybe others asking for 5000...However nobody has complied with these demands.

What is REALLY the important factor here is what the current situation is now. While a 3 day 150% increase up to the 266 mark was in itself unsustainable growth it doesn't mean that's anywhere near the roof of Bitcoins value. By it demonstrating is resilience to a 80% drop with a recovery back sitting at $114~ atm it's achieved a feat no other business or company could dream of. It's value is somewhat irrelevant right now. It's main features that are essentially what gives it's 'intrinsic' value have not changed. It has all the properties it had to begin with, what gave rise to it's value initially.

It is still in it's infancy, so with such a comparatively low market cap (even if it has surpassed a billion dolars) it needs time to grow, to make individuals less capable of market gaming before it can stabilize. Every day new infrastructure is being built around BTC, new software, new business accepting, new addopters, new innovations on it's uses and more and more we're seeing more NEED for it. (With the introduction of certain laws infringing on privacy, inflation and monetary mismanagement in the case of Iran and Argentinas hyper inflation, Cyprus' bank account funds confiscation, America...just America and everything about where it's heading.

Accepting Bitcoin without assuming the risk of it's fluctuations is easy..as soon as you get any Bitcoin, convert it (like with Bitpay etc) $1 worth of bitcoin is $1...

sell sell sell bit coin will be back to about 12 dollars in a month

This is a purely ignorant, content-less and FUD spreading post, why.

The technology of Bitcoin is unprecedented, you can own Bitcoin more than you can own a car or your house, you lose lose it more easily too if you're not wise enough to back it up to multiple locations too

So while Bitcoin may not be the sole currency of the future Crypto currencies are definitely here to stay. The future is looking much brighter with this kind of power now in the hands of the people, we just need to start wielding it properly.

[Bigred]

LUWA when i said that bitcoin was trading at 230 a coin then two weeks later it was at 39 dollars go figure . With all these ddos

attacks on the silk road mt gox etc etc and the constant ups and downs (you buy 200 dollars worth of bit coin then when you go to

trade it a hour later it has lost a lot of its value or gained). I have been trading for 3 years and these radical rise and falls (in the space of hours)

is not a safe form of money transfer as both parties loose out . As soon as Silkroad crashes Bitcoin will be pretty much worthless.

Even when i went to sell all my coins it caused the price to drop by $40 dollars . The way the mt gox stock exchange works is they set the price.

They do not use market forecasts etc like normal stock exchanges and they hold the majority of the trade. I am so glad that i sold

all my coin because Silkroad will not be around much longer and with out silkroad bitcoin is fucked

"it was good while it lasted"

[qwertyuiop]

In Aus dollar terms the crash was like this- high: 248.50 low: 46.99.

This started at say..

Feb 11 $20

Feb 26 $30

Mar 19 $50

25th-apr 10 : 65,80,120, 140,176,200,237-

That kind of growth, compared to the previous weeks was fear inducing to all the speculators, hence so many panic sells when a downward trend started to appear.

This is not a typical fluctuation, on a more average set of days you see the price go about $7 either way.

In my opinion, if you've been trading them for three years (not only should you be loaded if you bought in 2010) but you're just being a clueless speculator. These are long term investments...I mean by all means if you've made enough to cover your initial investment withdraw that so you have 'nothing' to lose, that's what I've done. For something that the most you can lose is 100% of the initial 'bet' but have the opportunity to realize gains that has no determined roof (but a very real potential for 1000s per btc if it can capture even 1% of the global market) then they're some odds you ain't gonna see in any casino for a good reason.

Your sell off did not cause a $40 drop. You were part of a wave of sellers (Unless you're now some sort of multi millionaire)

MtGox does not set the price of btc, that's delusional. They match Bids to Asks. They are however the main refferernce point for many to determine the current market price as it is one of the most widely used exchanges.

Silkroad isn't as big of a deal to Bitcoin as you imagine. Drugs incl. other illegal trades however do play a part. Silkroad is a btc based marketplace, there are many clones on TOR just like it. it simply has the largest market share of drugs deals and the highest level of user trust as well as media attention. If silkroad is shutdown I guarantee another for of the market place will pop up...Not necessarily under the same name or owner but the demand for it will be met. Not that it's any danger of disappearing anytime soon anyway.

I don't mean to polorize this discussion so much, but I'm just finding many of your statements to be too uninformed.

anyway, peace man

[Bigred]

Get real dude i made a lot of cash off it. I got out as any smart investor would . Ask any broker what they would do in my position.

You said i should sell some to cover my original investment and ride it out ( you think im a bitcoin spectator ha! how many coins you

got/made/sold/mined ) Dude what you think it will soon be a bit cent . Silkroad is losing and bit coin rides on the back of it . Any Investor would get out

but if you want to stay on a sinking ship and loose out fine . Don't call me a spectator im a investor my goal is to make as much cash

as possible in the shortest time . i still have a bit in bitcoin but going by my gut feeling and many investor friends are all getting out .

It took me 10 hrs to log onto silk road as all the ddos attacks are making it very hard to get on to the site. To many risks and its

will just keep going down. But seriously if you think your couple of coins are going to make you rich, good for you bro

if your still gun ho on bit coin i can sell you a mining rig 1.1ghs

 

Edited May 10, 2013 by bigred82

[qwertyuiop]

You're actions as a an investor make you a speculator, through both buying and selling to try an achieve the most profit. Wiki def'n - One who speculates; as in investing, one who is willing to take volatile risks upon invested principle for the potential of substantial returns. So no need to take offence to that term. You're in Bitcoin as an investment vehicle - So by all means do whatever you think will $ you up the most. For me, It's a long term investment, I'm sure my I.T profession, along with my interest in economics, particularly siding with that of the Austrian school makes me hold faith in, not only it's ability to penetrate a larger global market but also to more and more be realized as a necessary alternative to today's reserve banking, pro-inflation and covert fractional reserve banking done by normal banks. People are waking up to the truth about where this money is going, who it's benefiting and who's pockets it's ultimately being taken from. I care very little for the current price and am happy to continue holding and cashing out willy nilly as I spend on Bitcoin related services.

I also shouldn't really need to point this out but Enron and Bitcoin are apples and ... space bananas. A company can go bankrupt, be mismanaged, apart of a scandal, have negative yearly profit. Bitcoin is more like Gold than a company stock. It can only be priced as low as somebody is willing to sell it for and can only go as high as somebody is willing to buy it for. Them being worth .00001 cents / btc doesn't change what they're good at. A company that goes bankrupt however has shares that are obsolete / worthless.

.

'keep going down' ...Implying that over the last 2 months from being at $44 to now $112 is going down... or 20-112 in the last 3. These aren't a get rich quick scheme for me and my 'couple of coins' are doing just fine. I'm not going to mention how many I own on a public forum like this but I've had a keen interest in Bitcoin from the early days, and all I wanted to do was share that insight here when I posted about them back in September.

Anyway, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and let the future demonstrate what's the real deal with these things. But if I were you i wouldn't take all your eggs out of this e-basket at least keep one...Or keep mining...Or just sell it on https://www.bitmit.net or just regular ebay.

Edited May 10, 2013 by LUWA

[Bigred]

I just don't understand what your idea of a long term investment is please enlighten what bit coin is going to do

A lot of people are getting sick of the fluctuation's as it is supposed to be used as a peer to peer currency system.

But with all the ups and downs people are losing faith in the steadiness of bitcoin as a monetary trading system.

Ok if silk road crashes never to return what will happen to bit coin ????

will have to admit today it has been trading well and holding a steady value and silk road has reduced ddos attacks

edit and im not trying to be a prick this is how i am with business

Edited May 10, 2013 by bigred82

[Bigred]

Some good bit coin articles

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/how-bitcoin-could-die

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/why-bitcoins-are-just-like-gold

Edited May 10, 2013 by bigred82

[qwertyuiop]

I understand, you're not trying to be a prick, neither am I. A heated debate is always good to surface some issues.

Long term investment - I mean you can't expect it to be full realized as a suitable alternative / co-currency overnight. Everyday there are more and more places that are adopting bitcoin. The more places, the more it can grow and demonstrates is benefits to merchants through lesser fee's than accepting credit cards and paypal.

eg. Some recent adopters.

https://digideals.com.au -- An Australian tech company that accepts Bitcoins

http://www.gyft.com/ -- gift cards for various major business' that can be purchased with bitcoin.

http://blog.coinbase.com/post/50022567203/humble-bundle-now-accepting-bitcoin-using-coinbase -- Humble bundle games (many of it's games work on a pay what you like deal which when paying tiny amounts on credit card really sting the end profit margin. BTC is perfect for these sorts of micro (or macro) payments.

Not only is it great as a currency but inbuilt into bitcoin there are some VERY interesting, attributes that allow it to be used for cool things like smart property, decentralized exchanges, advanced automated escrow for disputes, claimable bounties, no risk lending and borrowing and a plethora of other things. It's only a matter of time before we see these being developed more seriously rather than just proof of concept programs such as 'colored coins'

A video on it's expansive other properties.

As I said before, if silkroad goes down, another 5 will pop up trying to grab that open and extremely valuable market share. Silkroad is not a.. hard to reproduce thing.. It's a ebay for drugs using Bitcoin residing on the TOR network. What's hard to reproduce about it is a user base. That will migrate to whatever demonstrates to be the best in the event of silkroad going away. If silkroad goes down...you'll see a market price drop from panic sellers, but I assure you that'll be a good time to buy (unless it's due to a serious flaw in the TOR protocol that eliminates anonymity) ...But TOR has been around for a long time, updated heavily, has a good history of resilience to this...considering it contains some much more sinister things than drug market places.

Right now Bitcoins are good for buying and holding. As Well as the occasional spending (like on the sites newly accepting bitcoin above) which (as well as discounting when buying with btc because of the creditcard fee lacking) encourages more business to adopt from a successful example.

Bitcoin is still very young, it's growing into it's shoes well but by no means are they a perfect fit yet.

[Bigred]

Its very hard for people to get there head around the actual bitcoin itself and there is technicaly no one in charge.

I had issues with one of my wallets and took a while to restart the wallet to get the coin back . It was not like

I could ring up the federal reserve and say my money is fucking me around . But you make a few good points

one is when to buy in again ( heard of some people spreading false news/attacks etc to control bitcoin values)

But a silk road crash would be great and last year silk road had a 420 sale and pushed coin up from 5 to about 25.

One thing many people dont realise you can gamble with bit coin and your winnings go instantly to your wallet

(be cool to have a bookie for Australian punters) as many gaming sites take a while to pay you your cash. With bit coin

betting you can eliminate the whole finger twidiling . sorry super wasted will make more sense later

What are your views on mining do you think 1.1 ghs rig is still profitable

What is your idea the value of a coin would be in 2020

[qwertyuiop]

Yea, they're great for kinda circumventing U.S anti online online gambling laws and such as well that it's pretty much instantaneous winnings. Just a reminder, I'm not a professional investor or anything, I just hold a strong opinion on the potential value of this idea. By 2020, they'll have been around for 11 years by this time I'd imagine there to be quite a bit of ironing out of issues, more user friendly interfaces and services to less tech inclined people (Bitcoin right now is like Netscape...we're a while off seeing some real 'browsers' like modern days fireFox and Chrome)...So providing they're not placed under some sort of worldwide regulation (which wouldn't kill Bitcoin, but would hinder it's progress) ...I know this is a bit of a wishy washy statement, but 2020 they'll be either worth a lot (500+) or very little (<20)... Unlikley to stay inbetween due to them now having a far longer presense in the public eeye and no longer being a foreign, untrusted and untested idea. in the eyes of many. Finnaly it'll have a bit of a track record to demonstrate it's long term viability (went from <from $2 to 32 then back to $2....then another climb to >200 down to <50 and back to >100) While it shows how wildly it can fluctuate, yet still not be affected long term from such drastic changes in price...You know, it gives new buyers a chance to get buy them at a comparatively cheaper price during dips. So many people thought 30 was overvalued...then when it hit 80 they're like ok when they crash down to 40 I'll buy them...then they hit 100 ok when they crash 80 I'll buy em... I'm ranting now.

1.1ghs miner is... still profitable if you're electricity isn't too expensive... I think at the current difficulty you'd get about .05 btc per day ... so $5-6 a day. Some people use their mining rigs as heaters during winter instead of running their real one. They're getting superseded pretty quickly though with butterflylabs miners, avalon asics ..might be some other companies producing dedicated miners (So I'd turn it into cash if I were you)

The future is easy to make a prediction on, but near impossible to get it 100% right...Too many factors . anyway yeahhh

[Bigred]

I have been checking out these sites that let you trade coin for metals gold silver platinum etc. My view is

to start trading my coin in for gold as it is a better form of currency ( im a prepper and hate banks ) gold

imho is the best investment going . Thinking will just save a few coins and put the rest in gold if there is going to

be any future for me in bitcoin it has to move to a bit cent i.e $100 = 1 bitcent and then people can trade cents

as well . This would be the best as there are a certain number of coins but it can be use infinitely . In regards to

my mining rig was thinking of moving to png if i was to get more into mining it as power there is so cheap and work on

something like 40 ghs . today's trade has held steady all day at $116 with a variance of $4 either way and there is no lag on sales

and there have been no ddos attacks on mt gox lately so it looks to be getting stronger but wish there were more exchanges

Had a look into butterfly labs that is a big investment for some of there rigs but you need cheap or free power

to power the rig i would want i would have to spend 50 grand on solar to power it . Not to mention the ato

getting there slice of the pie . But png power is like 2cents a kwh

[Bigred]

mod can we lock this thread

[qwertyuiop]

Yea golds good, just don't get burgled or try take too much out of the country. You'll have just as much trouble spending your gold at a random shop though. No need to lock the thread tho..I think we've wrapped up our discussion, but we should leave it open in the case of any other developments.

Ciao

[tipz]

Looks like they are trying to take it down ! The american department of homeland security orders the account of largest exchange to be seized.

DHS Cracks Down on Bitcoins Orders Account of Largest Exchange Seized in 'Ongoing Investigation'

by Jason Ditz, May 15, 2013

Print This | Share This

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS), has fired the first salvo in what appears to be a crackdown on the secure online currency Bitcoins this week, ordering the seizure of accounts related to the largest exchange for the currency, Mt. Gox.

Tokyo-based Mt. Gox is by far the largest Bitcoin exchange, handling an estimated 63 percent of the global market of the currency, amounting to roughly $450 million worth of volume.

The DHS Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) office, which has effectively become a catch-all for crackdowns on online activity objected to by the US government, served a warrant (PDF) claiming that despite being foreign-based, Mt. Gox was violating US money exchange laws by operating without a license. They ordered a bank account belonging to Mt. Gox’s subsidiary Mutum Sigilium seized in the crackdown.

The seizure was ordered as part of what officials are referring to as an “ongoing investigation” into the currency in general and Mt. Gox in particular. They have refused to provide additional information, beyond that contained in the warrant.

Mt. Gox issued an initial statement insisting they were unsure of the “scope and/or the reasons” for the move, but has promised additional information as it learns more.

The US Department of Treasury’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) has claimed broad authority over all use of “virtual currencies” and has imposed an onerous set of “guidelines” on who it believes is responsible for keeping detailed records of money transfers.

Since Bitcoins are by design a decentralized, secure currency, there is literally no physical way for the US government to effectively shut them down. At the same time, the DHS move reminds us that this isn’t necessarily a deterrent for hostile action at anything the US government deems a threat to policy, and moves against the major public exchanges of Bitcoins could have a deleterious effect on the currency’s use in many perfectly legal transactions.

http://worldtruth.tv/us-seizes-top-bitcoin-exchange-as-crackdown-begins/

Edited May 16, 2013 by cacti jihadist

[irabionist]

I remember back when bitcoins where $3 each and I thought that was expensive -_-

[Bigred]

They have been trying for some time now even (some unidentified source ) has been sending ddos attacks

to Mtgox . Bit coin is very resilient purely by the way it was designed . There has also been loads of flasle media

regarding bitcoin and its security . So we will just have to wait and see .

[Jonny Deformed]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57584511-38/homeland-security-cuts-off-dwolla-bitcoin-transfers/

Homeland Security cuts off Dwolla bitcoin transfers

Immigration and Customs Enforcement confirms an "ongoing investigation" that led to Dwolla cutting off bitcoin transfers to Mt. Gox.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security confirmed it has initiated legal action that prompted the Dwolla payment service to stop processing bitcoin transactions.

Nicole Navas, a representative for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, confirmed the legal action to CNET this afternoon.

Dwolla, a Des Moines, Iowa-based startup, which raised $16.5 million in funding two weeks ago, notified users about the move earlier Tuesday. It blamed the decision on "recent court orders" limiting its ability to send money through Mt. Gox, the largest bitcoin exchange.

"In order not to compromise this ongoing investigation being conducted by ICE Homeland Security Investigations Baltimore, we cannot comment beyond the information in the warrant, which was filed in the District of Maryland earlier today," Navas told CNET.

Mt. Gox did not respond to questions from CNET. It did, however, post a statement to its Google+ account saying:

 

MtGox has read on the Internet that the United States Department of Homeland Security had a court order and/or warrant issued from the United States District Court in Maryland which it served upon the Dwolla mobile payment service with respect to accounts used for trading with MtGox. We take this information seriously. However, as of this time we have not been provided with a copy of the court order and/or warrant, and do not know its scope and/or the reasons for its issuance. MtGox is investigating and will provide further reports when additional information becomes known.

 

Chris Coyne, co-founder of OkCupid, posted a screen snapshot of email he said he received from Dwolla this afternoon. It says: "Dwolla will be unable to complete your recent bank transfer [to Mt. Gox] and any future transactions."

Dwolla is not elaborating. Jordan Lampe, a company spokesman, told CNET that "Dwolla advanced the news of the seizure to Mt. Gox in under an hour of its execution. At their request, Dwolla followed up the initial communication to Mt. Gox with a copy of the warrant." Lampe said questions should be directed to Homeland Security or Mt. Gox, and refused to release a copy of the warrant.

Even though ICE's name refers to immigration and customs, the agency's actual mandate is far broader.

ICE's Homeland Security Investigations unit boasts 7,000 special agents in 200 U.S. cities that focus on crimes including drug smuggling, financial crimes, computer crimes, and export enforcement. That has included seizing Internet domain names, targeting sports streaming sites, and arresting a student for jailbreaking game consoles.

Homeland Security declined to elaborate on the warrant or court proceedings.

Update, May 15 at 9:40 a.m. PT: Here's a copy (PDF) of the seizure warrant obtained by DHS, courtesy of Ars Technica. It was signed by U.S. Magistrate Judge Susan Gauvey and seizes the contents of Mt. Gox's Dwolla account. The underlying crime that's alleged by a DHS agent is operating an "unlicensed money transmitting business." A DHS affidavit accompanying the warrant accuses Mt. Gox of opening a money-transmitting account without registering with the federal government, which makes the funds available for seizure.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Jonny Deformed

[tipz]

 

[shortly]

It may be a good time to remember that nothing is entirely safe!

US Fed's make first ever bitcoin seizure

It may be the currency of the future, but it now appears that Bitcoin is not immune to the U.S. government's prying eyes and hands — especially when it's being used to fuel black market activities.

A few days ago, the federal Drug Enforcement Agency announced that it had seized 11.02 bitcons (~USD$814.22) from South Carolina's Eric Daniel Hughes, who was trying to buy illegal substances with the digital currency. It's the first time this has ever happened, setting a very important precedent in this emerging area.

Related

What Is Bitcoin?

Maybe you've heard of Bitcoin—it wants to shake the entire global economy, and has become the financial bubble du jour with a skyrocketing… Read…

So, while the government doesn't print or regulate Bitcoin, it can still seize it — prompting some experts to ask, how the hell did they do it?

According to Let's Talk Bitcoin, a DEA agent could have taken control of a computer with an unencrypted wallet and transfer the amount to a DEA controlled wallet. Or the DEA could have set up a "honeypot" trap at the popular Silk Road "anonymous marketplace" — an Internet safe haven prone to black market activities. And in fact, Bitcoin is regularly used to purchase illegal items through this back channel. If that's the case, Hughes would have unknowingly transferred the Bitcoins directly to the DEA. Ouch.

Let's Talk Bitcoin suspects it was the honeypot scenario, as the sender-address was not emptied into the "DEA" account.

All this shouldn't come as a complete surprise. It was naive to think that Bitcoin could somehow escape the system — even if the seizure was orchestrated by a kind of trick

http://io9.com/u-s-feds-make-their-first-ever-bitcoin-seizure-607748728

[Scarecrow]

oh fuck off US

[qwertyuiop]

So has anyone else been keeping up with the news around Bitcoin? They're still going strong, still valuable for all the same reasons and still yet to hit the mainstream consciousness. Unfortunately the wake up is taking a long time for people to come to terms with how parasitic the current monetary schemes are to the wider population...It's inevitable that the realization will occur...It's just how deep we're going to let ourselves go underwater before realizing we need air.

ayway, just thought I'd drop by with another update for the crypto currency future.
Trading @
~ $233AUD / 1 BTC
http://bitcoinity.org/markets/mtgox/AUD

Not gloating or anything, just really wanting the potential of this tech to benefit the ...subcategory of people holding some more sustainable and ethical thoughts on the means of living... If you catch my flow. I feel this place holds people that if given more monetary influence would use it for a greater benefit than simply chasing after a lifestyle of pure hedonism.

I'm going to be cashing out a portion of my profits soon to diversify my holdings into some property now that my degree is coming to a head this semester. Check out the thread I'm bout to create regarding the purchasing and pitfalls of buying rural properties... It's completely foreign to me, so hopefully I'll be able to learn from some peeps there...

[ThunderIdeal]

good on ya luwa, i'm always keen to read your posts

[qwertyuiop]

Flippin' hell. AU$341.36 \ btc ...

[at0m]

Flippin' hell. AU$341.36 \ btc ...

Can change that AU to US if you're going by mtgox prices

[Bigred]

a nice read

http://www.coindesk.com/btc-china-beats-mt-gox-bitstamp-become-worlds-1-bitcoin-exchange/