damage to rare acacia at public gardens...

[mu!]

leaves are a moot point in some species, bark has to be used if d m t is what one wants. simple as that

[Mycot]

leaves are a moot point in some species, bark has to be used if d m t is what one wants. simple as that

I hate to be contrary but I find this statement questionable.

Perhaps you are referring to a species so obscure that few would know of its activity and hence would be relatively safe for that very reason.

[Drake]

Jesus! I was looking at this species today. interest in it for ah, personal reasons. Then I see its only located as a tiny blip on Australia's map! I know it is not a great idea planting something like this, and having it maybe screw up some gene pool. But it seems like it is so damn rare, that it will be lost if nothing is done.

Some say its best to let nature do its thing. Sometimes Nature fails. In this case, if it keeps going like it is, Nature will fail, and this Acacia will vanish. I for one would love to obtain some seeds. Insead of crying about this, how about looking into obtaining some seeds?

I don't know. I rather the Gene pool go funny, then let a species vanish...

[Chiral]

Jesus! I was looking at this species today. interest in it for ah, personal reasons. Then I see its only located as a tiny blip on Australia's map! I know it is not a great idea planting something like this, and having it maybe screw up some gene pool. But it seems like it is so damn rare, that it will be lost if nothing is done.

Some say its best to let nature do its thing. Sometimes Nature fails. In this case, if it keeps going like it is, Nature will fail, and this Acacia will vanish. I for one would love to obtain some seeds. Insead of crying about this, how about looking into obtaining some seeds?

I don't know. I rather the Gene pool go funny, then let a species vanish...

Yeah good luck on that one...I've been bustin' peoples humps around here for near on 6 months for seeds...keep trying though...apparently they have only been available in the past for skilled growers....collection of seed is not allowed which sucks, as potentially quite a few go to waste in the wild.

H.

[Drake]

Yeah, I seen your topic only an hour ago . The skilled growers have not seem to be having enough of an effect, have they? Seeds should be collected, and sold to people who are really keen on growing sead species. Simply provide a detailed, yet simple care sheet for gods sake !

Acacia obtusifolia is not all that common. At least from what Wiki shows on the map. I have ordered 50 seeds. I was planning to plant them in my area, but now I feel it would be MUCH better to sell young Acacia obtusifolia on these forums . It would be far better at distributing the species, then just distributing in my area I suppose.

EDIT: Something like this might be to blame...

Ayahuasca - Plant constituents

Ayahuasca - Plant constituents: Encyclopedia II - Ayahuasca - Plant constituents

Some plant sources of MAOI: Peganum harmala (Syrian Rue) - seeds Banisteriopsis caapi DMT admixture sources: Acacia maidenii (Maiden's Wattle) - bark Acacia phlebophylla Anadenanthera peregrina, A. colubrina, A. excelsa, A. macrocarpa Diplopterys cabrerana (Chaliponga, Banisteriopsis rusbyana) - leaves Mimosa hostilis (Jurema) - root bark - not traditionally employed with ayawaska by any existing ...

Edited June 28, 2009 by Drake

[paradox]

AFAIK phleb propagation is a very tricky business & is still in it's early early stages of experimentation so providing a simple care guide simply wouldn't be possible.

also, i'd assume that the one single population that exists of A. phlebophylla would be a single gene pool with each individual plant having the potential to interbreed with every other plant, so technically you couldn't contaminate the gene pool from foreign genes from outside. the problem with propagation & reintroduction however would be in ensuring enough seperate individual plants seed was collected to negate a too high level of in-breeding or too many of an individual plants genes being represented in the community. one would have to make sure seed for propagation was collected from as many individual plants from as far accross their range as possible.

before this kind of operation is undertaken a lot of work still needs to be done. it's a very sensative situation & great care needs to be taken. if we just go about our usual merry human way of going in there like superman & trying to fix things without understanding a lot more than we currently do then theres a very good chance we'll fuck things up.

[Mr Stay Puft]

the problem from reintroduction also relates to pests and diseases being released into the wild populations that would not have already existed there... these can be microscopic soil bound organisms, fungi and insects, which could have devastating effects on wild populations...

also seed will not be collected from every single plant in the wild so the gene pool that the seeds contain is restricted... then say you put 1000 individuals back into the wild from the select gene pool you have potentially upset allele frequencies in the population, which can cause severe disruption (including extinction) of the wild population...

I stress again that reintroduction of plants to the wild is a last resort, if ever... propagation and cultivation in the garden is one thing....

And once you begin planting in the forest it is now an altered landscape, which is far from natural, and not what we are trying to conserve...

[paradox]

I stress again that reintroduction of plants to the wild is a last resort, if ever... propagation and cultivation in the garden is one thing....

And once you begin planting in the forest it is now an altered landscape, which is far from natural, and not what we are trying to conserve...

very well said man, so true

Edited June 29, 2009 by Paradox

[Drake]

I cannot stress enough that the popularity of DMT is growing, I am sure you know this? The state that this species is in now seems pretty bad. From what I have briefly learn t about this species so far is that its only located on Mt Bufalo. I have a very basic understanding of the gene pool thing, as it's the same with ants as well (collectors often say not to release any colony that is raised into the wild! Even if you collected the founding queen in your own backyard, do not release that colony in your area).

Letting nature do its thing so the Gene pool is not messed up is fine. But how much longer do you think, before we opt for the last resort?

I will say once again. DMT IS becoming more popular, many think its some massive spiritual awakening. I am waiting before some sorry soul dose something stupid with the sacred molecule, and the media blows it way out there. If so, you better make sure someone has found a very easy source of DMT pretty soon, one that you obtain for sead plants leaf.

Not putting the idea of letting nature do its thing down, not at all. The ecosystem is VERY delicate. But I could not help but point out the above.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Drake

[Uncle. S]

Well go do something about it then

[folias]

In early 2003, I wrote this:

We do need to work with our sources of material in this country, and work out what are the most appropriate sources of tryptamines for us to work with and how! If necessity is not apparent now, I know that it will be!

Necessity is apparent now. I am assuming some forward thinking people have grown plantations of thousands of trees... we can only hope!

Otherwise, I wrote this in May 2002, based on a little meeting of ethnobotanical "bigwhigs" then:

Yes, it is very fair to say tryptamines will be a large part of what we can easily declaim and dot-dot-dot...2012....what terrence/all the prophecies say etc Will Australian acacias be a good source of tryptamines for this "event"

Probably not really, there is only one species that is reliable and totally pure dmt, which only grows on certain areas of a certain mountain and usually doesn't grown anywhere else. The rest of the acacias are a cocktail of other tryptamines and substances, which vary and often do not occur in certain trees, at certain time, in certain places...

Most likely South American species would do very well as a source of such need for spirit molucules on a mass scene. And then, there are all the plants, here and overseas which have not even been tested....it's difficult work with no place in this world.

Then surely Grass is profound as a teacher too! Phalaris Aquatica - A1 strain they call it...very high dmt content....clean and pure. Then of course they guy in the white shirt, with colored arrows on it, struggles in his announcement that there should be a channel dug into the great Australian bite...and the deserts will bloom.

This, is written quite tongue and cheek... but it still holds true... as a sustainable source of tryptamines, perhaps the grass is our best bet? I don't know of too many reliable reports, but with a team of scientists and horticulturalists... it would be EASY. (I would think)

However, in terms of plantations of acacias, from which you can sustainably harvest phyllodes... acuminata is pretty up there, there are a couple of other species which are rarer which could be grown... more research works needs to be done!

Yet, say with obtusifolia, some of the strains have great pyllodes, which can even be used in brews (they taste like grass) and contain 0.5%... its just a matter of getting the right strain (of which there are many). Some of the strains have low yielding tryptamines, with too many weird and overly interesting componds (yes, more research needs to be done!) and toxic if taken as a brew. (taste the phyllodes and they tastes horrible!)

I am told there is one strain of maidenii that contains 0.5%, but only in one little stand that is known of... I have been encouraging the researcher who found this stand to get seeds! :-)

Julian.

[paradox]

if people are interested in the conservation of this species in particular i recommend getting a relevant science degree & somehow landing a job with national parks where you can somehow work your way into a position where you can help make certain decisions about park management. then develop a very humble attitude & work from there.

barring that probably the best thing we can do is collectively keep our mouths closed about the issue & focus on propagation for private gardens so a seed bank is available in case of emergencies.

edit: something that just occured to me is that the situation of this species, with it's very particular environmental needs is such that it will probably always only be able to exist in a natural self sustainable way in the confined space it does now. i reckon it would probably be futile to attempt to introduce them into other habitats & totally irrisponsible in terms of land management.

farming them for distribution to private gardens is a totally different story though

Edited June 29, 2009 by Paradox

[Darklight]

IMO the very best protection for phlebs against rapacious harvesting by greedy idiots has come from the efforts of one of the ( former? ) members here who has systematically researched other Acacia spp for the presence of tryptamines and come up with species which are equivalent yield, easier to grow and sustainably harvest and much easier to find seed for- and released the results. My hat goes off to you mate for all your excellent work.

Other conservation work specifically aimed at conserving phlebophylla via providing more plants hasn't seen great results, and the few who have grown it successfully don't seem to have yet to drawn up a protocol which is universally applicable. Micropropagation didn't work either, despite significant amounts of money and resources being thrown at it.

If it's preservation you want then consider that any phlebohylla seeds you take from the wild are depriving the wild stocks of germplasm they're in the best position to use to stay at sustainable levels

If it's yield you're after you can do no better than UTFSE here to look for alternative Acacia species.

[mu!]

are there many percentages posted on A. longifolia yields? apparently its a good source but i've not heard/seen much open discussion on it.

[Drake]

are there many percentages posted on A. longifolia yields? apparently its a good source but i've not heard/seen much open discussion on it.

0.2% tryptamine in bark, leaves, some in flowers, phenylethylamine in flowers,[31] 0.2% DMT in plant.[35] Histamine alkaloids.[15]

So says Wiki. I sometimes see people posting about the use of such a species. I have not really seen any good reports. Why not look at something like Acacia acuminata? Wiki says -

Up to 1.5% alkaloids, mainly consisting of tryptamine in leaf[7]

Darklight, what were these species anyway? You would not have a link to hes research? SWIM would be interested in such information.

[samadhi_sam]

are there many percentages posted on A. longifolia yields? apparently its a good source but i've not heard/seen much open discussion on it.

Wikipedia says 0.2% DMT in A. longifolia however there seems to be a real lack of solid information on this subject.

Have a look at the following thread, some useful information there perhaps:

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...showtopic=14270

I've heard that freebase DMT from Acacias is pretty horrible to smoke (the effects are remarkable, it is the actual smoking that many find offensive) whereas the same substance extracted from P. Viridis is much nicer. Anyone have any information on this?

Peace.

S.

Edited July 5, 2009 by samadhi_sam

[PD.]

Acacia obtusifolia is not all that common

LOL....

with yields over 1.5% and trees being uprooted in logging areas and pushed into piles to be burnt...................

As for phleb......

The best preservation for phleb would be the spreading of the realistic info that phleb isnt a great source for DM, far far better alternatives out there. Growing this acacia isnt rocket science like some claim it to be either for those that want to grow it, just dont think about how other acacias grow when you try and you may have some success. The seed drop of phleb is a bitch too, it seems to all happen very quickly and once its on the ground there isnt much hope in finding it. I have missed the main drop for the past 3 years running and only by a matter of a week or two (sucks when ya dont have a license). As for preservation of the plant on the mountain i have no doubt that it will outlive human interference even if it is harvested heavily, there are just too many populations hidden for that too happen. That and the plant matures fast in its habitat to drop seed and keep it going as long as there is a fire through the area every 5 to 10 years, something which asset protection on the mountain had stopped in years past. Like i said tho, there is better sources out there and therefore no reason to molest the ladies at all considering.

plenty of phleb seed on the ground to continue the populations once fires ravage the mountain again. Has been awhile since i visited the mountain but from reports the plants are beginning to thin out (is a freakn jungle there atm) and will need a fire in the next 5 to 10 to clean up the stragglers.

Acacias dont live all that long and im drunk.

[ThunderIdeal]

I've heard that freebase DMT from Acacias is pretty horrible to smoke (the effects are remarkable, it is the actual smoking that many find offensive) whereas the same substance extracted from P. Viridis is much nicer. Anyone have any information on this?

not to put too fine a point on it samadhi, many need to harden up. here is what i tell people: when doing this one often encounters a sensation like a burn to their lips or toungue, like a chemical burn, and often forgets the possibility of spitting.

A. ignore the burnt sensation, it's something of a false sensation and it goes away in a few minutes

B. have somewhere to spit if you find the taste so offensive

C. have a glass of water handy as it may be the first thing you need afterwards

[Horus]

I recently had a defoliation of my maidenii by the Electricity Commission.

Yeah I planted it under my power lines, I didn't think it would grow like a magic beanstalk,

Anyhow came home to a massive pile of "material".

Not being a chemist I had not much choice to mulch the leaf and branches,and put around my other ethnos.

I have kept the larger branches,with nice bark,anybody on the Central coast is welcome to it.

[Chiral]

I recently had a defoliation of my maidenii by the Electricity Commission.

Yeah I planted it under my power lines, I didn't think it would grow like a magic beanstalk,

Anyhow came home to a massive pile of "material".

Not being a chemist I had not much choice to mulch the leaf and branches,and put around my other ethnos.

I have kept the larger branches,with nice bark,anybody on the Central coast is welcome to it.

[Darklight]

Darklight, what were these species anyway? You would not have a link to hes research? SWIM would be interested in such information.

From memory UTSE as several of the higher yielding spp have been mentioned here. Don't have a link, but again from memory there was a presentation at one of the EGA's on Acacia chemotaxonomy or something like it. Def wasn't last year's EGA tho, which was awesome for entirely different reasons

[.:Shadow:.]

That's a fair bit of bark in a short time. I'm not experienced enough with it's use, but that sounds like more bark than one person can use. Surely no one would be evil enough to kill trees for some sort of personal gain? No one here knows anyone like that.

I agree that this is deeply unethical behavior. I'd go even further and say that someone capable of doing this does not have the ethno communities best interests at heart.

Exactly my thoughts, but as far as i can tell non of them are even active ( well they would have dmt, but in really really small ammounts ) thats why they may had to use so much.

If not & they are active then there definitely dealing the shit

( i had a dream ages ago that i was down there looking for active acacia's but as far as i could tell there was none )

Have had another look in my dreams lately & might have ID a A.Simplex ( the only possible active down there ) but funny enough there has been no damage to these 3 trees ?

I'll grab a few cuttings and post some picks when i get myself another camera ( still waiting for the seed pods tho )

Edit: that's pathetic. . . 5-20years & countless hours of growing these plants just to be destroyed within a month or two =/

Edited July 8, 2009 by .:Shadow:.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Necessity is apparent now. I am assuming some forward thinking people have grown plantations of thousands of trees... we can only hope!

I highly doubt it. The "forward thinking people" are US! We must take action ourselves!