Catha "Khat"

[Teotzlcoatl]

What kind of strains of Khat are there? How do the various ones differ? Which one is "best"?

[the germinator]

I posted the same question on Australian Ethnobotany and it seems not many people know the answer?

I can tell you which varieties I have in my collection, I don't know of any others but, I'm sure there are more, at least I hope there are 'cos I really dig collecting this plant.

I have "Red Khat", "Green Khat", "Narrow leafed Khat" and "Vienna white".

The following occured in Yemen, as it's illegal here;

I have used Tea made from Red Khat, it was ok, not like speed, more like MDA. It is very nice with sugar - very refreshing but makes ya' sweat.

I have chewed the foliage and young stems of the narrow leaf variety which, after a very short time (~5-10 minutes), affected me like GOOD coke or short duration amphetamine, I noticed that if ya' keep chewing more the affect is prolonged. This was the better feeling, although maybe I should try chewing Red before making such a comparison.

I have not tried Green Khat or Vienna White as, my plants are only small, they won't be ready to "put out" 'til next season.

Do you know of any other varieties???

From my experience, the narrow leaf variety is best but the Red is also good, just different, unless it was the means of delivery.

Edited December 26, 2008 by the germinator

[Teotzlcoatl]

Thanks!

Anybody esle have any other tips or comments?

I'm really interested...

[Torsten]

What kind of strains of Khat are there? How do the various ones differ? Which one is "best"?

Red and pink [vienna white] are pretty much the same. It's just a colour preference. Pure stimulant. Slightly bitter. Easy to propagate from cuttings. Red is the traditional somali plant.

Green - this one has no pink or red at all ... ever. It is quite soapy when chewed. Propagates from cuttings at certain times of year. Stimulant, but apparently not very potent.

Narrow leaf - this is the one grown in south africa. Strong stimulant and inebriant. Sweet taste. Does not propagate well from cuttings. More tolerant of crappy clay soils.

My preference is for the narrow leaf because I like the mild inebriation with the stimulant. It's like having a glass of beer with your khat. The taste is also more pleasant in my opinion. However, the somalis will not consume this at all. They only like the pure stimulant effects from the red/pink forms. So if you ask a somali they will recommend the red.

Red is common in the USA.

[Frut]

I have plenty of the green, they grow well here on Sandy welldrained coastal soil

However no matter how much I try to boost the alkaloids with added nitrogen enriched composts etc

it is always of very low potency, though I have some tolerance to amp type stimulants due to years of medical use.

At present I chew about 80 green leaves on 10 shoots (including the outer bark on the shoot branch) to get a stimulant effect roughly equivalent to 10 mg of dexamphetamine (a standard 4 hr medicinal dose for me).

I am currently exploring khat as a way to reduce my need for dexies as medication for ADHD. As you can imagine it is not worth the considerable chewing and gob stoking effort with the green variety as a medication alternative, so I have been planting out reds, pinks and a few narrows to expand this trial.

Green khats effects when you do get enough into you I find are similar to dexies but unfortunately khat is a bit less central acting and more peripheral (ie dopamergic NE actions outside the central nervous system tend to give the higher blood pressure and more jittery cranked up response of stimulants and not so much of the focus effects).

I wonder if some of the variability in different varieties is due to the degree or ratio of cathinones to cathines as fresh leaves. Cathine being like ephedrine I am told so with lots of peripheral and less central effect?

I guess dexies are a little unique amongst amphetamines in that they illiciit most effects in the brain (a hard act for a herb to follow, but there is at least one.....) However, fresh Khat has a little more euphoria for me than dexies, which is certainly desirable recreationally but medically is seen as potentially problematic with treating ADHD unless depression is a coexisting condition (which it often is).

Next summer I may have enough red and pink and perhaps even some narrow to expand this self experiment. So far I am finding them more tricky to grow than the green and they are growing at a slightly slower rate than the green.

If people are interested I can post snippets of this pilot one person trial (Khat as a alternative stimulant medication for ADHD). As more information comes in.

regards

Pedro

Edited January 4, 2009 by Frut

[AndyAmine.]

Yeah khat is a lot less focusing than amphet's, more like coke IMO. so I dont think that you will find much difference in that no matter what strain you choose or amount you take.

Have you tried taking Tyrosine and or DL-Phenylalanine (DLPA) along with Vit B6 (Inostiol).

After getting into these supplements myself through this forum and the follow up research that ensued I found quite a lot of anecdotal and scientific research stating that these amino acids are very good place for people with AD(H)D to start in regards to getting their brain back into check after treatment with d-amphetamine and its analogues etc..

I have a feeling that if you tried this (perhaps along with tryptophan and gaba), after a couple of months you will find that your usual dose of 80 leaves will have a much more euphoric and lasting effect.

Just a warning, you should not take Tyrosine or DLPA if you smoke pot daily or close to it, due to the interaction with the

tyrosine hydroxylase system in the brain, leading to potential issues with mania and psychosis etc.

[Frut]

Thanks Andy,

I have no doubt preloading with dopamine/NE precursors works for some with ADHD and that all amphetamines in excess can deplete dopamine levels (though many argue that this applies much more to serotonin than dopamine. Due to serotonin being shunted out of the way by bigger amino acids at the BB barrier unless you have a big sugar hit.

I gather your model is based on the premise that more dopamine in general is the answer and precursors are the rate limiting step. (or serotonin or GABA regarding your other suggestions). If only ADHD was so simple in all cases

It is also argued enzymnes that make dopamine are more often a rate limiting step (hence some ADHD responders to more zinc magnesium etc). Its really hit or miss with these things I think.

ADHD is a little different from Parkinson disease where loading dopamine precursors (l-dopa) is generally important. Though both conditions seem to have low levels of dopamine function at their core. However even switching on more D2/D3 receptors which seems to help parkinson's has little effect for ADHD. They still dont have a clue how dex or ritalin work, but in most genuine cases they accpet they do work to a degree. I have seen it on spect imaging and how dex lights up parts of the ADHD brain (frontal lobes in particular) that were black before unlike non ADHD people.

I have been experimenting with more natural alternatives for years on and off. The thought of being stuck for life on amphetamines (I am in my 40's) is not a nice one. But during bad ADHD spells I have found only a couple of natural alternatives that rival dex and ritalin (both plants are banned here unfortunately). Khat fortunately is not banned here yet, fingers crossed. Though the media and USA are on to it! and a few Australian based Somali women pissed off with their men, unfortunately!

regards

Pedro

Edited January 4, 2009 by Frut

[AndyAmine.]

I haven't got time right now for a full reply but no I didn't mean preloading I meant taking it for at least 2 or 3 months.

I was assuming you had stopped taking the dex and now may possibly be having trouble getting good effects from khat as a result, thus the suggestion that a regime of Tyro + DLPA + B-vits etc for at least 2 or 3 months may help.

[dogbane26]

Nice information, but where do I find the different strains?

Ethnogarden in Canada it looks like they sell the green variety which to me looks inferior.

Lambo seeds used to sell the red-stemmed variety which I like. It sucks lambo is no longer in business or maybe he still sells seeds but doesnt have a website no more?

Where do you get seeds for the narrow-leaved variety?

Plants are illegal where I live so I can't have someone send me a plant.

[planthelper]

Nice information, but where do I find the different strains?

Ethnogarden in Canada it looks like they sell the green variety which to me looks inferior.

Lambo seeds used to sell the red-stemmed variety which I like. It sucks lambo is no longer in business or maybe he still sells seeds but doesnt have a website no more?

Where do you get seeds for the narrow-leaved variety?

Plants are illegal where I live so I can't have someone send me a plant.

for those people wher it's legal to grow catha:

seeds of all this catha strains get traded periodicly, just have a look at the trade forum here at sab.

one has to be patient a bit when it comes to those things that's all, sometimes people gave a way those seeds even for free.

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...=si&img=680

[Teljkon]

asda

Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Uncle. S]

hey sorry to change the topic slightlybut can anyone shed some light on this for me? i was reading about khat and everyone seems to say that it only produces reasonable amounts of alkaloids after 2-3 years of growing. if a cutting from a 3 year old tree is struck, does that cutting produce alkaloids at a 3 years growth level or at the level of a new plant from seed? or something different? so yeah just wondering if a cutting retains any maturity of the plant it is sourced from in general?

[planthelper]

hey sorry to change the topic slightlybut can anyone shed some light on this for me? i was reading about khat and everyone seems to say that it only produces reasonable amounts of alkaloids after 2-3 years of growing. if a cutting from a 3 year old tree is struck, does that cutting produce alkaloids at a 3 years growth level or at the level of a new plant from seed? or something different? so yeah just wondering if a cutting retains any maturity of the plant it is sourced from in general?

this is a very good question, and i don't know the answere, but...

seedlings stay weak till they have reached a certain level of maturety.

cuttings will faster reach this stage.

i guess there are two factors at play here, morphological maturety and time.

a cutting might be mature above ground, but the root system might be inmature.

but i guess young cuttings of catha (6months old) would be already potent, but this is speculation, and i believe this, because we can observe similar things with other plants.

unless somebody would have 50 young cuttings and tries one leave of each of them we will never know.

[Teljkon]

ada

Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Teotzlcoatl]

Very interesting. Are there anymore interesting cultivators which are known for their potency?

[denyst]

Hi ,

Please if someone have Catha Edulis seeds for sale .

contact on PM THANKS.

Deny

[icekila]

I have only heard of two strains, north hemisphere and south hemisphere

Edited July 28, 2012 by icekila

[chronic]

What they mean?? There are many strains.

Khat farmers of Ethiopia make a distinction between two varieties: ahde, "white;’ and dimma, "red;’ in reference to the color of the leaves.

Apparently, there are four traditional color varieties. There's even a black strain. Qualitatively, there are countless variations.

In the southern hemisphere in southern Africa is growing narrow leaf.

[waterboy 2.0]

EDIT - there are no legal issues with the cultivation of Catha in this part of the hood.

Catha will show a lot of variety, having some in one place may help a few:

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh492/waterboytas/catha1.jpg&key=1e4c9903f691974ea5d69109f62510cbb6464e9186b19143148e8ce276ef3311

Narrow-leaved - note that this is considered by some to be another species (I will agree)

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh492/waterboytas/narrowleaf.jpg&key=084a4d608a1057adb9516999adee0e1dc6a6fb24332d88df1af7c5be575a54ed

Vienna White - probably variant of "red"

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh492/waterboytas/viennawhite.jpg&key=fb3dfc7449db0f4f6c3a19ddd6bd61b1a674353dd667d1a35040abdec1543b0d

"Standard" Red

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh492/waterboytas/red.jpg&key=0532eba5a053b37333fd6d31ac66307c22205902029c243e00ab591879150f4b

Green

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh492/waterboytas/green.jpg&key=11ddf42691409d47837d3115434a2f06b9938210e73e94f7776dd899f18b0c55

"Dark" red (I am presuming this is close to the referred to "Black" variety

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh492/waterboytas/reddark.jpg&key=dbf8dd20388b279ba8d9ccd5e5d772bde77241421b7ff9d5f2f6c46e9608300c

Then there are the Planthelper hybrids....

Seed grown cathas show a wide range of colour and growth habits, and there would be many varieties that can be found.

Edited July 29, 2012 by waterboy

[planthelper]

the traditional names are helpfull but probably a bit problematic, that's why:

off topic, but didn't want to start another thread for this little bit of info. Found this while perusing today.

Four different cultivars of Catha edulis are known, and the Yemenis recognize these by shades of colour difference: 'abvad' (white), 'ahmar' (red), 'aswad' (black), and 'azraq' (blue).

 

http://www.shaman-au...opic=24941&st=0

'abvad' (white) = vienna white and greenman strain (maybe the name greenman is wrong, but it's the catha pictured 2nd last from the previous poster, maybe the name is freeman).

'ahmar' (red), 'aswad' (black), and 'azraq' (blue) = red (they are all the same, and only look different because of the climat, condition and season.

the red catha, is red for most of the time.

the red catha, get's purple/blue, if very happy and at a certain season.

the red catha, get's black, if unhappy and at the cold time of the year.

so there is no black or purple strain!!!!! but i will explain why the yemenis, have those different names, it's because it describes the appereance of the leaves, which is an indication of quality and strengh, to some degree.

if you trade or buy qat, you wanna know how the leaves look like, and those names give you an idea!

the green strains change aswell the appereance, and i think there are local names for this aswell.

Edited July 30, 2012 by planthelper

[opiumfreak]

please if someone has catha edulis seeds for sale pm me!

[waterboy 2.0]

I believe it is the "Greenman" Planthelper <___base_url___>/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png

And denyst and opiumfreak - this is NOT a trade thread.....

[chronic]

Thanks waterboy. Wonderful pictures.

planthelper thank you for the interesting info.

[shortly]

Wow that "dark red" is a bloody ripper WB

Imagine that as a hedge

[whitewind]

Yeah second that, it's a stunner. We need more ethnobotanicals as ornamental plants!