Frut

Thanks Maurice, Alks are one of a interesting range of options with Sida IMO Alks was what I thought I could start with as a simpler measurable characterictic of the wild population Before entertaining any plan to selectively breed more alks or any other property, I would like to start by selecting the best strain in the natural population around me this is why I am fussing over the simplest possible field test, to test as many plants as possible in situ and take as few samples back to the lab for further analysis as possible, time is the essence. as it is a hobby, not a phd Maurice, I take it you think genetics is more important than environment when it comes to Sida and Alks, could you tell me why you take this position? regards Frut

Mods How do I get rid of this warn status under my name? I dont want people to think I am a risk to communicate with

Yes please reshroommed, Any help with getting a basic understanding of TLC at this stage is appreciated. I have dejavu loaded I think though email on my profile is best regards Frut

thanks Darklight, please let me ride the illusionary wave of 'this is not a brain grinded to dust, eyes wasted by computer, phd type study' just a little longer thanks for the lead, again I am pointed to TLC, I am really going to have to try and understand this TLC procedure it seems complicated at the moment regards Frut

Hello folks I am sorry for not getting back to you for a while First of all thank you once again for all your generous gift of thoughts and ideas and experiences relating to my driving question The main factors driving alkaloid production in Sida-Bala Whether your comments are perceived as negative or positive, condoning such an experiment or not, I do appreciate your feedback and I am both surprised and grateful for the wealth of knowledge expressed by so many people on this board As to my apology of slowness I have been snowed under up to Xmas at the mundane end of keeping bread on the table, so had to put it on hold. First I must get a handle on my plant ID (thanks Apothecary and Harry) Sida cordifolia or rhombifolia or?. I am starting to get a feeling that there may be a bit of a Eucalypt phenomena where the actual individual Sida species that have ranges that overlap and similar morphologies may have somne interbreeding going on so we have fuzzy overlaps between species. This is another question and typical of what appears to begin as simple and practical enquiries into natural systems. Ask one question end up in a Fibinacci or fractal type sequence of thousands. I hear you, the fact I an opening a Phd worth of work. Sweet Lord I hope not! But that’s why I consult you dudes and fellow plant people that like to keep their fingers in the dirt and the journey practical. I don’t like tapping at computers and staring at them for hours on end and this Sida thing is a hobby interest to me. Remember, I just want this to be a pilot look into the question of what is driving the alkaloid variability. I want it to be kept on the practical for we gardeners. Such as 1-4 1. Can we increase alkaloid or other pertinent phyto-chemical loads with simple soil ameliorations, site selection, timing and is it worth buggering around with genetic strain selection etc. 2. What can I find on this from the smallest amount of field samples and related tests and the smallest number of samples in my garden trial? If the answer at the end is ‘hey yes’ first soil/microclimatic it may be worth beefing up nitrogen, growing on clay versus sand, or adding a clay component to sand etc, rhombifolia has the edge over cordifolia at my home site, or even the contrary..viz… needs far more data and far more work to extract a pattern from the noise, then I would be satisfied for now 2: temporal: Harvest at flowering, harvest at seed set, or harvest before flowering etc. yields more of X or X or X 3: plant compartmental: main stems or roots or leave and smaller stems, take this one and use the rest as mulch etc. yield more of X or X or X 4: genetic, use rhombifolia or use cordifolia don’t fuck with the rhombis etc Sure to do it really precisely accurately and sufficiently to show reliable repeatable patterns it involves and absolute shit load of data, probably 100 phds not 1 or 0.001 phd’s. But I subscribe to the philosophy of if it is worth doing at all? It is worth doing poorly at first! My context Wild resources I have easy access to three large wild samples, firstly on sandy soil around Newcastle coastal regions, secondly on heavy clays up the Hunter Valley and Sydney’s west-Cumberland plains Thirdly Hunter river silts that use to be sites that wild hemp was eradicated from in the 60-70’s, quite thoroughly it seems. Quite rich soils so largest Sida bushes on this silt as expected. Cultivation resources I have a little patch of earth that has been fed up on compost for more than 20 years, it is sandy (high silica, water repellent despite all the compost), slightly alkaline and I have lots of Sida growing just for their capacity to mine the subsoil and bring lost nutrients back up to the top. My action plan for now, thanks to you guys 1. Species identification: ASAP You are probably right Apothecary, it being rhombofolia and not cordifolia, Harry first lifted my suspicions here and as a result my camera is in getting repairs so I can get a few decent pics from the sample in the thread ASAP and get your feedback as they are in flower at full swing as I write (please watch this space my ident gurus Harry and Apothecary and others out there) 2. Gather in some wild samples now they are flowering, make repeatable with gps. Put these on hold by drying these or would it be better to freeze them fresh? Or better still to freeze briefly then juice through a Champion extractor then re-Freeze and save the labelled juice for later analyses? My original question to you on how to do even the most basic simple test in the field to determine a maybe yes or no: This bush is likely to contain more of something that looks like alkaloids and this does not ? Surely guys there must be something simple I can do? That doesn’t involve me going to the cops and asking where I get one of there breath or road swab kits?!!! At this level I don’t care what fucken combo of alkaloids it is, or even definitely yes this is alkaloids versus glycosides etc. Just a positive or negative at this stage on the question alkaloids possibly present or not, a maybe is sufficient??? Off course being able to get a handle at this point on whether it is a little bit of something that may be alkaloids are present, or a relative lot of alkaloids that may be alkaloids are present would be great. Just so I know which samples I can take back to the lab (it seems a University may be coming on side to provide better lab facilities too for the later, I will let you know) Reptyle said get the stuff, like the cops are using to determine (at your car window?) if this driving dude has been on smack, krank, X or gunja in the last n-hours. Alright I was critical above but it is a clever thought, for we suspect there may be phenylethylamines in the Sida, but the fact that they are none of these illicits, and these tests may be more sophisticated than necessary to pick it up, for they determine people on X from quite specific types of krank, I gather they don’t rake in the legit users of legal krunks like those conventionally treated for ADHD and narcolepsy, or the cops will be getting into a increasingly busy period of false positivos I imagine. My initial take on this, Reptyle, is it is too dam sophisticated for the purpose. And it also touches on issues with Sida where I really don’t want to go on this thread, to the cop shop asking where I can get this tool kit. It is not my interest with this plant, not my purpose with the plant, and dam unfortunate too for the study (more on this later) that it possibly contains traces of Xzephri- drunes.zX in many cases. Guys how about the old UV light, why is Torsten not selling these lights any more? Surely what could be simpler than eyeballing a beam on a flattened sample of leaf, or stem or root in a dark room. Sure it is not on the spot, sample site, daylight time stuff, but this is where the cheap modern gps could make it easy to keep repeatable and lets say 50 specimens may be done in a few hours in the evening after a mornings work wandering along the Hunter River bank etc? Please dudes? Why are we not talking UV, bouncer/nightclub door checker flashlights, or something really basic like that? Any of you guys out there used the ones that Torsten use to sell for a purpose like this? Also thanks to Alchemia and Sascacheuan for such detailed info and the link re TLC, I am trying to see how I can use this easily in the field, or at home without driving to a uni lab, but I am dam sure it is useful back in the lab Now for some important Housekeeping Moderator(s) should we move this thread to chemistry or another less accessible part of the Corroborree site, as I don’t want to attract attention and interference from the krank spanners or people chasing krank spanners (krank spanner = people used by krank, not people that use krankas a tool to get a desired outcome). I must admit I was a bit naive at first when posting my ideas on this. I did not realise the implications of discussing any plant that contains even the smallest trace of alkaloids in the XEphizdrineXvvvv family. After trying to get my head around why my first thread was closed and people whom I have respect for on this site quickly gave me warnings mentioning words like jail, I first said on reading WTF?. I was shocked. I personally was drawn to this plant after I found it had amazingly deep roots like Lucerne, and was more tough than Lucerne. Lucerne has revolutionized my garden, using it in green manure cycles, I can show you the before and afters. I am now mulching with Sida and cycling it through beds and it seems to be doing the same with a twist. I think it is drawing more trace elements, probably less nitrogen than Lucerne to the surface. My citrus leaves have quickly lost all the lacking zinc iron and mn look for example. Also at heart I am still the apprentice alchemist, like many here, always looking for the gold bio-miner too! Also a heavy mulch of Sida seems to drive my grape and fig tree cuttings into a more vigorous tap root structure from the word go! Which I am sure some of you would understand the significance of, on sandy soils. So I tried with last years fig and grape cuttings in pots (I sell quite a few)- putting a 60 mg XXXZpsuedo-z-ephedrinze-XXXzz pill on 15 pots (one tab per pot-broken up at weekly intervals) versus Sida mulch and compost tea on another 15 versus 15 samples in control (osmocote but same soil mix). Results: Sida mulch and compost tea: very vigourous downward root growth, Control, usual growth, moderate vigour, entirely adventitious growth. OTC 60 mg generic XXXsidafudXz pills X 1 weekly I got something in between the above. I personally doubt that any serious lawn enforcementi agency, dealing with the drouge problem would prioritise this Sida issue. I am told by a source in big pharma, whom (you may not agree, but I say give them their due) are very clever with chem type Locks, that big underbanana operations now days import their key feeds to what I imagine is a tricky and costly reduction process. I cant ever see Sida competing, I may be wrong, but the time and expense I imagine would always make the importation in this country the option when only profit makes it attractive to these types. I may be wrong. But even if I am right I want to keep this thread entirely out of this sphere as much as possible, not due to the law or serious villains, as much as the fwack-nackles and also genuinely sad cases, that I feel a measure of compassion for, that want to put rocks in their heads or have already done so. I thought this was happening due to the mods wisely closing the first thread and giving the chance for me to get off on a better foot, but was surprised to get a few pms recently (which I will ignore) from people I imagine from the krunk spanner class, whom I reckon could hinder progress towards some useful preliminary output. So folks, and mods what do you suggest here (and a thanks to those that have forced me to get up to scratch on this issue, surrounding any poor plant that has even the smallest trace of Zxephri-dongeXz , in it, please keep reminding me if I slip from time to time). I really think many of us need a simple processes and appropriate equipment to do pilot field studies on a range of plants for the exact same questions I am, proposing here and trying to keep the thread on. Unfortunately I have chosen a plant that may have a very small quantity of zXephi-drox-Zx family alkaloids in it, amongst a hell of a lot of other perhaps more useful synergistic stuff that to me is equally if not far more exciting, how do we keep this thread functional and not dragged down by krunk elements I now recognise that I was being warned I may attract? Thanks all Pedro Frut Ps Incidentally doing some background reading on the above last issue, makes me wonder about the Xzephid-rinxXz molecule, how does a little plant tie so much energy into such a molecule? I base this on why that molecule needs literally, as I now understand, a bombs worth of energy to cleave off the single little (is it hydroxyl) side chain, to make some kind of krunk. Subject any other organic molecule to this, even a diamond you would blow it to smithereens in seconds surely? but this guy can take hours of blasting, almost like fission fuel requirements. Surely that is an interesting side issue? That meek little weeds make molecules harder than diamonds Are all alkaloid molecules put together with such potent bonds? My god the energy requirements for a plant to do this? And why? there must be a pay off to that plant? Just a little side thought, off topic, but thanks dudes for getting me to read up here as it makes me even more curious what sida and all the other disparate metabolisers of ZXephi-drubeXz have in common to warrant such a huge metabolic cost to make something harder than a diamond, pest disease protection, downward tap root growth stimulation? There must be some-things we are missing here Ummm back to my question: The simplest way to say yay! Alkaoids may be present!, or not and hopefully There may be more in this one less in that one…gps it please Pedro wantabee Boffin…..full stop!

Thanks all, for your ideas and insights I will attempt to discuss some aspects of these replies as my mind tries to digest them The old adage of there being many ways to skin a cat comes to mind but perhaps saying many ways to boil a yage brew would be better as I have a respect for cats, mixed with a fear too. I think when my head starts spinning when I get this type of feedback I have to go back to my original question, and the context in front of me, then consider your suggestions. My Question(s) as it currently stands after your comments: 1. Are there individual Bala-sida genotypes in my immediate region that have a significantly higher total alkaloid content 2. What factors are driving any observed variability in alkaloid content, are they genetically driven or environmentally driven (ie soil, nitrogen content) or what is the relative impact of genetics and environment in this alkloid content. 3. Are there predictable patterns of variability in the individual over time in the same tissues, or between different tissue compartments like roots versus stems at a given time. I think tackling questions on the alkaloid makeup (actives inactives etc) is largely relevant to question 2 and 3 type levels of enquiry, and something to be done mostly back in the lab with larger harvested samples, this comes to mind when I read comments from Alchemia, Chiral and the suggestions of using drug test kits. Holy catfish this is potentially a great left field idea to look into Alchemia, which is partly why I am posting about this on this board, as I suspect there is a quite a few of us here that are left field (to use the jargon) that is when we are on the field at all. As Chiral points out time is the essence, I guess too Chiral I will be drawn to those Bala individuals that I perceive to be a good agricultural form. More biomass in a nice manageable shape. This is inevitable. It could be a scrawny little 6 leaf runt and have an alkaloid content from hell or heaven? but it will most likely go missed. But lets face it, plants that punch out secondary compounds that are a high metabolic cost on that plant, make this effort usually because they have some vigour left over in the kitty after the food, clothes and shelter is paid for. if you are struggling to find a feed of beans each day you are not likely to find time and resources to buy a powerful new weapon to keep the bugs and thugs away. So going for those individuals that visually stand out in ones immediate perception from a group is not such a stupid thing, perhaps? Its the normal brain filter and perhaps a dam useful one for once?? Look! there is a fucken big green one over there with a lot of flowers! If I have to sample living tissue in situ with a gram or so in a test tube, some solvent and a reagnet well whats the bloody simplest thing guys. I really dont need to isolate, anthropromorphic active and inactive alkaloids, at this stage do I? I just want to answer this at first! is this a plant that may be worth coming back to for a second look? ie to take a bit bigger sample for something, like take back to lab? Something like alkaloids present yes.....a little, usual amount, or yes more! gps that dude! move on Does this thinking make sense? What is this marquis and TIC and spot stuff Alice?, sorry for my ignorance here, does it give you a ball park estimate of total alkaloid in situ and not weigh half a ton or turn me into a walking solvent bomb! Somebody mentioned chloroform, that fucker doesnt burn easy does it? but I dont want to enter a state of mind where I sample 1 ala pronto perhaps sample 2 takes the rest of ther day, I guess just do it down wind. I dont have time for mountainous studies either folks and this is why I am picking your brains for short cuts. Have you not on your travels, kept striking some plant of intense intrest that the locals are cultivarting or its coming up as a weed everywhere and wanted to get a handle on which were the better indiviudals from your position? do they exist? what would be the easy way perhaps funnest way to have half a chance on coming up with something real here? Chiral, Trichocereus genus or whatever they call it now surely is good one to work on, the DNA stuff too though it sounds even less field easy and the cost.....? When I said the format we are developing here has potential for wider application, I did not envisage destructive harvesting of any rare and endangered species to run field or lab alkaloid tests etc. To me that is insane, and I hope it is to others, I imagine it would be on this board. Shit if a plant is that scarce whats the point in putting an effort into the kinds of questions I am suggesting here. The question in that context surely must be how do we protect this unique treasure (even if we humans have no economic use for it!) how do we give it a chance to reestablish itself into a viable population in the wild in its natural habitat (more than often then it follows that its whole habitat has gone anyway and it gets more and more depressing). I am in a place with large wild resource of the invasive bala-sida, S cordifolia I think (but Harry now has me wondering so I better up some photos soon for your ID) By the way Harry the more you hijack this thread with posts of your quality the better please feel free for that was a real useful wake up call on ID and my basic assumptions on the species and genus. There seems enough evidence to suspect this plant as a whole extract, or part extract ie root or stem tissue may contain a whole complexity of medicinally useful compounds for humans and some veterinary applications. Other evidence points to this Bala-sida plant genus potentially containing phytochemical compounds that may have applications or uses beyond medicine to industrial and agricultural uses including bio-mining. This plant may not be a waste product after all? From a hard edged agricultural economist perspective it largely depends on just how many usefuls are in the plant overall and how easy/cheap are they to be comverted into useful endproducts? I dont want to be a hard edge agr. economist but I do want to keep my feet somewhat near ground level and somewhere near the field be it left side or right or whatever. Though I will steer clear of the dudes in the centre of the field if possible they might be agricultural economists or regulators and after all I want to actually do something that may be a half useful pilot study even if the sample size is too small it may tantalise for bigger things? thanks people Pedro Frut ps I wish I had a good sense of smell or taste, a simple taste and yes that one is bitter level 5 or 4 or 1 would be sufficient! but it wouldnt be a very widely applicable technique for alkaloid studies unless they were shortish in a short career.

Thanks Chiral I dont know, I dont mind wandering around my local bush looking at things. Please dont assume I want to get out there and extract things ASAP, so I can have a lot of this or that extract or alkaloid at hand ASAP. It is not my goal. Currently I am more interested in observing things. I certainly would like to hone down and road test a procedure here that may be applicable to quite a range of species around the globe, and I hope may be of interest and practical application to other ethnobotanists and medicinal / psychotropic plant enthusiasts. Naturally I want to do this honing down in a way that causes no harm and yields the maximum benefit and appreciate all input to this end. regards Pedro Frut

Hello Looking for a simple field test or procedure to determine (approximately) total alkaloid content in a range of wild plants in situ. Starting with Bala-sida sp. Must be light weight and simple and not cost prohibitive. Hopefully relatively rapid as well. Procedure wanted to obtain a ball park estimate of total alkaloid content in the field, so that individual genotypes can be compared and more interesting individuals located again if desired. Cant control soil effects on total alkaloid content, that is understood, but will note soil type on soil surface at each sample specimen, as this data could yield a useful relationship to alkaloid content. By keeping the procedure as rapid and simple as possible, hopefully can minimise variability due to time between sampling individuals, ie do a lot of plants in one area in one hit. Maybe can get a rough handle on 24 hr fluctuation in a few individuals as well and extrapolate to larger sample to minimise this type of noise when comparing the whole data set (ie previous point raised on temperature changes in the one day can make a big difference in the same individual plants alkaloid content). Cant see any legal issues, as not wanting to do or obtain anything illegal, just get a handle on the abundant natural resources in my region, of a legal plant and a legal family of alkaloids, Australians had to do this in a previous crisis, when cut off in the second world war and they done this well. Cant see any law that prevents us making ourselves just as ready today, except if the plant is illegal. Come what may economic crisis, environmental crisis or military crisis or ones own health crisis it pays to know the resources on your doorstep, does it not? best regards Pedro Frut

Hello Folks, I am in the Newcastle region, my location is mostly a sandy soil area on the NSW coast, surrounded by lots of wild and naturalised Sida, I think the species is cordifolia and it has naturalised or become a weed in most peoples eyes. they call Paddies Lucerne. I would like to be able to do some simple tests in the field to assay a cross section of these Sida plants to see if some individuals have higher levels of alkaloids than others and ultimately select and save seed from a better alkaloid yielding strain as a potential source of medicinal raw products Could anybody suggest a simple quick field test that could suite this exercise? It doesnt have to be super precise I think, just ball park to give a hint of total alklaoid content, so I can put the coordinates on the GPS of the better plants and discreetly tag them to later find and collect seed from. Samples can be subsequently taken back and tested in my little home lab to look at the overall alkaloid makeup and partitioning into different plant tissues (roots leaves stems etc) perhaps using A/B extraction and oxalic acid to seperate some broad alklaoid types that may be present. I imagine from my limited reading that there is usually more of the ephedrine family alkaloids partitioned into the roots and in my field sampling I would like to question this assumption and see if there is a reliable relationship between the quantity of this family of alkaloids found in the roots versus that found in the leaf and stem tissue (it may vary with the season too). Perhaps in the field a simple leaf sample could give a complete picture of alkaloid content for the plant based on a leaf/ root alkaloid relationship if it exists? Any suggestions on how to develop a light weight simple procedure for the field on sampling of this abundant and free Sida resource would be much appreciated, SAB used to sell a UV flashlight for this task I think?, I dont know if it is applicable or still available but there may be better tools for this purpose? Any suggestions appreciated best regards Pedro Frut

If you get a chance to post some pictures that would be great, I feel a bit of a fool now because perhaps they have been ripping me off with stem material included with the thorns but it still had a strong sedating effect in a dose dependent way in my case

Why buy tumeric pills? Why not add some pepper to your tumeric, there is so many foods you can add a little of these two spices too that gives the whole dish zest! Good quality pepper has adequate amounts of piperine so it does not need to be added in overpowering amounts I seem to remember reading piperine is a relatively potent MOA I B reversible (pub med search) Also piperine is a potent p glcyprotein antagonist which as far As I understand means it keeps many drugs longer in the brain, and body, good for quite a few physcotropics, but not all I imagine Also nothing in any pill IMO comes near the potency from growing some tuneric organicaLLLY yourself, harvesting and cleaning peeling it straight away and then pounding it in a spice mix in a mortar and pestle (pity I dont have fresh black pepper as well or pippali so at the moment I add store brought whole pepper and crush) I also was told to add an oil for better absoprtion of the actives curcumin and piperine, dont know if this is accurate? I imagine such a complex mix of chemistry in these two herbs needs both polar and non polar solvents to get maximum absorption/benefit from it.

Sounds interesting at least the dopamine and NE stuff, forget the serotonin stuff though the 'serotogenic reuptake inhibition model' of effectively treating depression has been debunked. Not that prozac does not work at what was it 60% success rate after 12 months, but it is working by means other than seratonin reuptake inhibition. re modulation of CRF and opioid system/HPA axis, NK antagonist, Pgp inhibition, Factor P downgrade etc etc. It now seems most likely prozac and possibly more of them US's other super SSRI's work foremost by being very low quality and weak opioids that had an additional effect of plasticizing the opioid system through the HPA axis. but this new info wouldnt of got it through FDA approval back then, would it? I dont know if this is true, but word from people in the industry has come to me that the mighty USA based drug giants had this weak opioid agonist and plasticizer label splashed back in there face recently due to some nasty drug company politics. The USA based giants making SSRI's tried to get Tianeptine, owned by the french little giant Servier' knocked out (like they did with its dopaminergic predecessor 'survector or amineptine' which IMO was and still is a better antidepressant than whats around today) but Survector is illegal to deal with anywhere in the world now thanks to its competitors. Tianeptine shows the SSRI model is bullshit. There is other evidence too but Tianeptine is the most striking with solid empirical support for its an SSRE (E= enhancer) and has an efficacy slightly better than Prozac, something like Lexapro. To knock tianeptine out massive amounts of cash went into exploring its effects on the HPA axis and yes it is a weak opioid agonist and plasticizer amongst quite a few other interesting things. It may of been Servier who retaliated, but it was only a short space of time that this bomb in Serviers banking room was defused with clear cut evidence that Prozac had the same property. it all went quite For the person suffering from depression though this shit fight may be good though, as finally we are moving on from the SSRI model (which only stuck for as long as it did for the inventors of prozac made so much money, that the investors demanded there must be more gold in that god dam mine, dont open a new mine it takes too long). In fact now some more lateral or brave researchers are asking that if it is the opioid agonist etc effect that really is the main benefit pathway from prozac (it has others too) then lets look at opioids and enkephalinase inhibitors, not just the mu but the delta and kappa system and how we can make these systems more plastic and juiced up so people are more happy even slightly euphoric, yes euphoric. Fuck these pilgrim fathers that all look depressed and pleasure is bad. Finally we may actually start getting some real antidepressants Even the word triple inhibitors is now not a sign of rebellion. Yes Serotonin NE and wait for it Dopamine! Hang on That evil dopamine bastard that makes people want to fuck and girls have more orgasms more easily, with or without a man. Survector or Amineptine, a french drug.... yes Servier again (those french perverts actually think that it may be important to be able to fuck when yopur depressed!) Well survector is a dopamine reuptake only antidepressant drug as far as I know, it was banned only recently. Well in the successful USA funded world doping court case where survector was successfully banned the world over and put on the level of cocaine, this was done by by USA powers in the World Narcotics Court, one of their chief forms of daming evidence was a side effect where ladies were having orgams more freely and easily and even a small but significant percentage where having spontaneous orgasms! Jesus one of them may have even had an orgasm in church! this was actual evidence in this day and age to get a drug banned the world over! An interesting point was officially Brazil was the last country to shut down production and sales of this drug, and there was a massive number of phone calls from the city of the world narcotics court on the evening after it was banned apparently from the main hotels the judges prosecutors and lawyers were staying, as the bastards tried to buy up bulk amounts from Brazil. I guess those judges etc and their wives were worried they would miss out in the rush to get hold of the drug they just banned. It really reflects on a fun society doesnt it when their main non perscription antidepressants are beer and spirits (yes watch the TV adds) and their main perscription antidepressants, almost without exception, have a very very common side effect, to make you fat and take away your desire and ability to fuck (well it drove up viagra sales thats for sure!) It seems that old mother nature and those old Japenese herbalists know a genuine antidepressnat when they see it, I rest my case.

ts tantra I agree with you in that the dose suggested as therapeutic by Michael Tierra sounds high to start with, but even with my limited trials I noticed considerable variation with different Gambir purchases. Generally, I noticed relatively strong sedation in the lower end of the 6-15 gm suggestion, but it is not the sedation where your brain switches down to not remembering much that happens like with some benzos or booze etc. Taken at 6-8 gram decoctions, if my stomach is empty it quickly puts me in the mode where I realise its time to stop or wind up what I am doing, if it involves any thinking, and start making towards the cot. I noticed the desription on the Gambir Gastrodia Formula from Cathay Herbal, its action in this combo using the oriental model is to prevent hot rising angry wind from liver that disturbs your heart and head, or something like that. So ts tantra that sounds a wise starting point a one gram decoction = two doses, the suggestion of mild decoction I have taken as a very light simmering for 15 - 30 mins. I noticed on second attempts to get something out of the stems, it was not worth the effort unless you put some fresh material in. Several Chinese people selling herbs, in Sydney's Chinatown suggested to look for the thorns on the stems, suggesting that they were the most active part for their context. One old Chinese fellow said some people just use thorns in decoction, more strong but very expensive, sometimes a sneaky operator will strip the throns and put the thornless stems inside the sample so it is not seen unless inspected more closely, so he seemed to be suggesting to get hold of the sample they offer you and give it a good inspection before putting your stash on the table. I dont know how accurate this look for thorns info stuff is or if it has a firm scientific basis. but often with Chinese remedies, science eventually gets around to quietly finding there was something in what they were telling you and the world for many centuries. I say quietly because so called scientists and evidence based medicine oficianandos can be quiet noisy at criticising these quaint eastern or other alternative ideas as absurdities until somebody shows they were onto something and then the pompous critics can go all quiet or treat it like it was not important or go the other way and try to claim the idea. Electric, I think you where lucky to have Michael Tierra as a teacher. In many ways his work on trying to apply Asian models to western herbs etc, and help westerners get a handle on Asian models and lesser known asian herbs has been pioneering IMO. Its easy to pick fault in hindsight but I still find his work a highly useful reference. However despite my respect for Michael Tierra I question some of his dosage quantity suggestions, like for Gambir, As a result of following his dosage suggestions with nutmeg: 1/2 to 6 gms in infusion; as a treatment for indigestion and insomnia I was unwittingly introduced to the hallucinatory effects of nutmeg, followed by the inability to piss and then the hangover. Like probably quite a few people on this forum, it is an experience I have not repeated. The funny thing was I was dosing on the lower end of Michael's scale and it took several nightly doses for the nutmeg to get to sufficient level to be hallucinatory, and it was working well from night one for the purposes I took it. but when it did become hallucinogenic it was way above a threshold experience and quite colourful that night. I can not imagine what such an experience would do to somebody new to herbal medicine and with no ethneogen experience or interests, just suffering from a bit of indigestion and insomnia, so why not grab somthing from the spice rack! simple easy! It is easy to laugh about these things but couldnt a 6 gm dose kill somebody? Electric please tell Michael about this if you see him, surely we owe him that much, though he might of corrected it already in later editions?

Just another note on Gambir It is partly a warning, though I dont want to scare people away from exploring it, but we are not talking about catmint type sedatives here, this stuff is potentially very potent, and wise use and patient exploration is important I believe. Slow and patient titration is perhaps the key once again, I guess this is unnecessary to put down for most of you. and perhaps m,ore reflects my own fears for being an impulsive type. I quote from the entery on Gambir in 'Planetary Herbology' Michael Tierra 1st edition 1988 Start Quote 'Properties: antispasmodic, anticonvulsant, antipyretic, antihypertensive. Uses: this powerful antispasmodic herb used in TCM lowers blood pressure. In large doses it can paralyse the sympathetic nerve endings. Treats high fever, vertigo, nervous and hypertensive headaches , hypertension. Precautions: Contra-indicated for individuals lacking genuine heat and internal nervous tension. Dosage: 6-15 grams mild decoction (this is a therapeutic dose I suspect) If Michael was correct back then (1988 publish date) a sufficiently large dose that is enough to paralyse sympathetic nerve endings could take you out, it all depends if it selectivly targets some sympathetic nerve endings over others, for example a preferential target of peripheral sympathetic nerve endings is perhaps not as threatening as a preference or higher affinity for central sympathetic nerve endings. I suspect we all know drugs that are more or less central over peripheral acting or vice versa and some drugs operate in equipotent fashion??? Remeber back in this period nmda channels were not commonly discussed, it just slowed down the heart and other vital signs was the model I remember etc From wikipedia: The Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS) is a branch of the autonomic nervous system. It is always active at a basal level (called sympathetic tone) and becomes more active during times of stress. Its actions during the stress response comprise the fight-or-flight response. Sympathetic neurons are frequently considered part of the peripheral nervous system (PNS), although many lie within the central nervous system (CNS). The sympathetic nervous system is responsible for up- and down-regulating many homeostatic mechanisms in living organisms. Fibers from the SNS innervate tissues in almost every organ system, providing at least some regulatory function to things as diverse as pupil diameter, gut motility, and urinary output. It is perhaps best known for mediating the neuronal and hormonal stress response commonly known as the fight-or-flight response. Michael Tierra IMO produced a great book for 1988, but for our purposes his mention of paralysis of the sympathetic nervous system is perhaps too broad and vague, at least, in that it contradicts the current handle on nmda antag. qualities of rhynchophylline, that is it is reversible, competitive and a moderate affinity antagonist of NMDA channels (we dont know which ones?). For example ketamine and pcp I understand to be non competitive and high affinity (reversibility? I dont know this) and yet I think they have high LD50's. Lets face it how many people have taken enough ketamine to stop their heart etc? and it is still a great functional drug for surgery on children but we are talking Gambir, the whole herb, and it appears there is a lot more in there than rhynchophylline which also seems to have a relatively high LD50 which equates indirectly IMO for window of safe usage. So, fellow explorers, until we get a solid handle on this herb please be mindful it is powerful, dose dependent, it could be likely that the old 'agonised by most downers and antagonised by most uppers' model applies. I still suggest most of you are going to drift off to a good refreshing sleep before you find a Gambir hole, when it is used as a sole agent, and we are going to find most benefit in it as a potentiator and or harmonizer of many other drugs, thats my hypothesis at this stage anyway. I stand ready to be corrected! Also be mindful when shopping for Gambir in Chinatown etc. Uncaria rhynchopylla is the Gambir we are talking about, there is another medical species from Malaysia I belive Uncaria gambir. Which is substantially different in compositon of actives it appears, and rhynchophylline is common to many Uncarias, even traces in Cats Claw I have read,and some other members of Rubiaceae perhaps Apocynaceae too?, but none so far to my knowledge have the documented content of this alkaloid as Gambir or Uncaria rhynchophylline. I dont want to harm anybodies sales, but for those that cant line some up at the coming EGA, in the past I found it quite easy to obtain in Sydney's Chinatown.

thanks HEyebrow and others great post! Just on the Only known NMDA antagonist in nature minor error, which detracts a little from such good work to add to the known list a little Uncaria rynchophylla and apparently it may be the rhynchophylline which is present in a few of the Uncaria genus and members of the borader family Hupperzia genus contains some known phytochemicals with nmda actions Any plant with a lot of magnesium in it even cocoa may have a very mild nmda antag. effect, perhaps a zinc and taurine component too though these are on the extremely mild end of the nmda antag. continuum