Sparrow's death shocks a nation

[apothecary]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1510520.htm

Dutch animal lovers are mourning a sparrow that was shot dead after it fluttered into an exhibition hall and knocked over thousands of dominoes set up in preparation for a world record attempt.

The sparrow will be commemorated in a live television broadcast of the domino-toppling attempt later today, after a wave of national outrage at the shooting.

An exterminator shot the sparrow earlier this week, amid fears the bird could upset more of the four million dominoes which staff had spent weeks preparing.

Dutch animal rights groups are outraged as sparrows are a protected species in the Netherlands.

Hundreds of condolence messages have been posted on a website for the sparrow and has already attracted 200,000 hits.

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What's more important? A sparrow, or dominoes?

[Evil Genius]

It´s everywhere in our news. You could get the Impression that we haven´t got any real Problems out there in our world we should take care of. I really love animals but to me the people who are right now on the streets,demonstrating because of this sparrow, have definately too much time and energy. They could also demonstrate for something that is really important. Better Let the sparrow rest in piece

If i had the work the domino builders had over the last weeks i´d probably acted the same way. I don´t think that this is ethically correct though.

[apothecary]

have definately too much time and energy. They could also demonstrate for something that is really important.

Are we talking about the domino guys or the protesters?

[ballzac]

Are we talking about the domino guys or the protesters?

lol :D

[Evil Genius]

Both of them I don´t like this Domino Day Stuff Pretty much as i don´t see any great sense in this "TV-Event".But My Girl watched it though and so i had some spare time for myself to check out some nice ethnobotanical books during these endless 3 hours.

[Rev]

Maybe we could start selling all our excess sparrows, foxes, pigeons, mallards etc back to Europe

Its getting pretty bad when u cant shoot vermin

The tendency to anthropomorphise animals seems something of a mental pathology

especially at its most virulant when people care more about the welfare of animals than about their fellow man

[Entheo]

The tendency to anthropomorphise animals seems something of a mental pathology

especially at its most virulant when people care more about the welfare of animals than about their fellow man

Even more when its at the expense of the environment! When an animal does overpopulate its environment and degrades the environment, in the worse case it may need to be culled or do something to favour the preditors .

People have an autoculling process called wars and bird flu disease that help bring down the population back into a sustainable amount.

[chilli]

The tendency to anthropomorphise animals seems something of a mental pathology

especially at its most virulant when people care more about the welfare of animals than about their fellow man

I am thoroughly guilty of anthropomorphising animals - all my pets have distinct 'voices' and carry on conversations with me, each other, and the rest of the household. This is pretty weird for people when they come over and you get the cats out and they don't know why the hell I'm saying "I hate you, you dickhead" (this is the kind of thing the animals 'say') in a funny screeching voice. To make it worse, I sometimes do the same thing with people's dogs when I stop to pat them... the owners usually get moving pretty quickly when I say things like "DON'T TOUCH."

Nevertheless, as much as I don't think I could kill an animal that was a pest, I tend to agree with Rev when I see people spending so much time and energy on animals that could be used caring for foster kids, the elderly, and physically and mentally retarded.

At the same time, I would be a hypocrite if I told other people that they shouldn't spend their time protecting animals, given the fact that I spend such a disproportionate amount of my own time pissfarting around on this forum, and doing many other things that don't help and may even hinder disadvantaged people.

I can also relate to those animal welfare activists, because sometimes animals seem to make such better friends than humans... and some people become so disillusioned with their fellow man, especially when they ravage the environment, either directly or indirectly.

Which leads me to further agree with Rev, because when the animal in question has been introduced, and is a pest, it is destroying native animal's habitats, not that I consider native animals better, but I don't want them to be extinct either.

Mind you, I got the impression that this sparrow was not vermin, but a protected species in the country where this happened, perhaps I'm mistaken?

[Evil Genius]

You are fully right, it´s important to save and secure threatened Species. I also love all kind of animals and would have enormous Problems to hurt one.

Nevertheless i think there are lots of poor people dying out there. I just can´t understand why people are wasting lots of enegery for such things while they could really move something senseful .

I guess it´s a bit too late now for our little tweetie.

It´s sad that they shot a threatened Bird but i assume it´s wasn´t supposed to be go that way. They should have followed the Dutch animal laws though.

But ok, Shit happens sometimes.I also understand the other side...sometimes i also prefer animals because they can´t lie that much

[Qhorakuna tantani]

Sorry peoples, I know this is an old thread but I really feel like venting and rather than start a new thread, I thought what I had to say could fit in here ...

I live in SA but atm I'm in Germany. I just finished a phone call to my parents and they told me that last week, in an area called Smithfield, an Alpaca that lives at Smithfield School had a rock thrown at its head and sustained a broken jaw and its eye was popped out of its socket! It was rescued by the RSPCA but was later put down I believe because it couldn't eat.

That infuriates me ... All that I can picture at the moment is the head of one of those beautiful, cute creatures. Maybe this effects me emotionally more than it normally would because my family owns two alpacas, but I think regardless of that fact I would be just as angry. I can't percieve anyone who could be so callous and stupid as to do something like that, even though I know it happens all the time. The Alpaca wasn't even the school's, it was being loaned from a farmer. More than likely this was someone from the school so they have probably just set their school back $3000, which puts it in an even worse situation. Ahh, self perpetuity.

Right now, as bad as it sounds, I think I would have no moral/ethical problems with braking the jaw of someone who has done this. Killing them is however another story and I certainly wouldn't wish that apon any human (bar a few), but if they are stupid and thoughtless enough to do such a thing as this to a helpless animal, then why should it be wrong if the same thing were done to them? I know I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but it certainly would make me feel better. The sooner these genes are taken out of the gene pool the better, IMO. Sorry, that may sound overly bleak but I'm feeling a little that way atm.

About the sparrow... I'm sure there was a better way to deal with the situation than shooting the poor thing... who gives a fuck if the goddamn dominoes fall down? Gives them an opportunity to waste their time all over again. That's me finished I think.

[botanika]

If they were smarter, they could have trained or tricked the sparrow to start the dominoes making the show even more popular as well introducing the animal lovers to the stately hobby of dominoes...

One could also read this as a symbol of human behaviour. We spend all our time preparing meticulous social endeavours that could collapse any moment and maybe ultimately will collapse (think Katrina disaster), while ignoring nature just doing its thing.

[prier]

I am curious to know how many of these protestors would be vegetarians. If it's right to kill an animal for food why is not ok to kill an animal for other reasons?

I’ve always been vegetarian so I believe that killing an animal (for any reason) is wrong. Why should one animal’s life warrant such a protest when there are thousands of other animals dieing every day?

[ballzac]

To go off on a bit of a tangent here...I have had trouble reconsiling my love of animals with the fact that I eat meat. I would never kill an animal, but for some reason I can eat an animal that has basically been killed for MY money, without feeling guilty. At this stage in my life, I still eat meat, but only if it is served to me. I don't actively go out searching for meat when I am hungry. This is unfortunately the best I feel I can do at least for the moment.

I am often saddened to see vegatarian protesters wasting their time protesting over the eating of meat. Meat eaters DO know what they are eating, and it is only introspection that will ever get a person to stop eating meat, not someone telling them that it is wrong. I think where effort COULD be useful, is in protesting for the development of "humane meat". By this I don't mean meat from animals that have led a fairly pleasant life and died a quick death. I mean meat that never came from a living animal with a thinking brain in the first place. As far as I know, the technology is there to grow meat in a test tube, just as we have been able to grow skin for burns victims. If the technology isn't QUITE there, it soon will be. I know a lot of people would think this idea is a little macabre, but I also think that many, like I, would realise that it is not as macabre as killing a thinking, feeling, living entity. If this meat was available now, I would instantly switch to it. It might not be popular right away, but as its popularity grew, others would see it as less of a sickening thought. I think that eventually this is the direction we will go, but with substantial protest, which might be joined by meat eaters AND vegetarians, it can happen sooner. I see organic food as a bit of a fad. It might die out all together, or it might remain the less common option, but I don't see it taking over. 'Grown' meat however, I can see being the only source of meat in the future. I believe that it would ultimately be cheaper (Imagine how many cows will be saved when MacDonalds realise this), and would likely spawn laws that outlaw the slaughter of animals.

I don't know why I have never heard this suggested before. Surely this would be in the interest of vegetarians and many meat-eaters alike. Like I said, I DO see it as an inevitability, but I would like to see it happen in my lifetime. Just a thought.

[Qhorakuna tantani]

I believe that it is animal nature to hunt and eat another animal as prey. I don't believe that the way it is done is good at all, battery farming and the like. I like to think about the issue from a perspective that is humans are animals. Animals eating another animal is just nature, but humans are just much greedier and take more than they need.

I almost completely stopped eating meat a few months back, I only eat it once a week, not because of animal rights but because I wanted to see how much healthier I felt. It was damn hard. But it got me thinking... in nature humans were probably meant to eat other animals, but since when were we supposed to suck on the tit of a cow, another species? I think there was research being done in south australia a while back that suggested that there is a chemical in cow's milk (enzyme maybe) that when given to babies, it can cause problems later in life including an assortment of diseases. Not sure if they fully published their work or not.

[jasemateau]

interesting point of veiw Qhorakuna tantani, i dont know how i feel about eating test tube food.

it would be a clone, replicated, to be high in all sorts of nutrients and other shit that makes it grow faster.

so then i'm already thinking will the chemicals used to speed up the growth will they shorten my life span?

i cant imagine what obsticales will be involved regarding ethics within this subject.

can you imagine what dirty old macca's would pay for the orignal clone for there new meat????????

would'nt matter anyway they would still make it with the texture of cardboard saturated in pig fat, for that taste mmmmmmmmm.

me i would'nt eat it for a probly a very long time, its madness to think nothing would happen to our bodys.

well'l probly get somthing worse than a form of cancer, our bodys start to mutate, i dont know,.

not for me.

what would the dutch say if the bird was dilberatly frightened and the bird flew into a window?

knocking it's self out?

they do this all the time, so whats really the point.

smoke another spliff guys, dont worry, it's all love

[Qhorakuna tantani]

I forgot to mention this before, Ballzac, you should read a book called Oryx and Crake by Margret Atwood. It discusses in detail things the future may hold for us as in the availability of 'real' meat is very low and it talks mainly about GM and how the scientists don't have any ethical/moral issures with making a chicken with 50 legs and one beak because they made it so it doesn't have a conscious brain, it just eats. Might change ur mind lolz

[ballzac]

I believe that it is animal nature to hunt and eat another animal as prey. I don't believe that the way it is done is good at all, battery farming and the like. I like to think about the issue from a perspective that is humans are animals. Animals eating another animal is just nature, but humans are just much greedier and take more than they need.

I almost completely stopped eating meat a few months back, I only eat it once a week, not because of animal rights but because I wanted to see how much healthier I felt. It was damn hard. But it got me thinking... in nature humans were probably meant to eat other animals, but since when were we supposed to suck on the tit of a cow, another species? I think there was research being done in south australia a while back that suggested that there is a chemical in cow's milk (enzyme maybe) that when given to babies, it can cause problems later in life including an assortment of diseases. Not sure if they fully published their work or not.

It may be natural for animals to eat other animals, but it is also natural for animals to rape and kill other animals of the same species. It doesn't mean it's okay. It may be a fact of life, but as animals that have the power of thought and reflection, I think we have a responsibility to use this power for the good of ourselves and other animals.

And Jasemateau, I do not like the idea of all that shit in my food, but it's in most of our food anyway. Yes you can buy 'organic' food (Is that food containing carbon? :D ), but you would have to be religious about it to avoid all of it. I agree that this would be a problem with what I am proposing, but I think it is actually not the corporations' fault. They just give the consumers what they think they want. If we want cloned 'brainless' meat that is not full of all the hormones and shit that is in most of our meat anyway, we would have to make it clear that that is what we want. I think most of the people who want food without additives of this sort, would also be the type of people (generalising here, sorry) who would feel icky about eating cloned meat. This would mean that it would be a disaster to create a business producing organic, cloned meat.

All branches of science have brought us to a place where we have lots of wonderful things, like computers, phones, vehicles, television, lsd etc., and lots of bad things, like guns, nuclear weapons, television etc. The actual process of cloning brainless meat for human consumption does not have to be dangerous to human health. It is the way we implement this that could be problematic. Also, I don't think people who eat maccas (I DON'T) don't care about what they're puting in their bodies, and that stuff is already so bad that it won't make much difference what else they do to the meat. It doesn't make a difference, as far as I'm concerned, whether the hormones are added to a test-tube, or to a living breathing animal, except that in one case a being with thoughts and feelings dies, and in the other, a bunch of muscular cells die.

[apothecary]

The problem is that now the corporations are telling people what they want, rather than the opposite.

You don't want high sodium, non-nutritious, low energy McDonalds.

You want high convenience, non-fuss, low effort McDonalds, with a toy to keep your kids occupied so you don't have to!