salvia divinorum prohibition in Oz

[khanes]

Hi friends,

I am a scientist interested in the plant salvia divinorum and have had opportunity to document therapeutic effects of the plant (Antidepressant effects of the herb salvia divinorum, Journal of Clinical Psychopharmacology, 2001; 21: 634-635). I have also used the plant ritually as part of my personal spiritual work, in seeking to extend my own philosophical awareness. I also have a great interest in shamanism, the subject which led me to this local forum.

Whilst I am aware that the plant is now prohibited for use in Australia, as a contributor to the international debate on its legal status, particularly in Europe and the U.S, I do intend to oppose the local prohibition of one of the last remaining (legally available internationally) and one of the more valuable natural resources for the pursuit of religious and spiritual awareness(I use the word religious with reference to Section 116 of the Australian Constitution). I was wondering whether others had used the plant in a ritual way in Australia, prior to its prohibition here and were concerned at this intrusion into their spiritual or religious freedom?

Just to let other forum members with an interest in this plant know, that I have recently obtained documents under the Freedom of Information Act relating to the detail of the plant's prohibition in Australia (eg. individuals involved, how it came to the attention of the TGA), as part of an ongoing investigation. Anybody interested in viewing these documents, please let me know your postal details. I look forward to contributing to the forum in the time ahead. With best wishes.

Karl R. Hanes.

[bloodbob]

I'll just point out the obivous here Dr Hanes did you know that part of the reason to ban the plant was in relation to your work? ( not blaming you I know most of the MAOI and tricylics out there have much more drastic effects if taken in an over-dose ).

 

quote:

---

Members highlighted that there is considerable published literature on Salvia divinorum

 

and salvinorin A, which indicates that the herb is being used as a recreational

 

hallucinogen and supports the Committee’s previous decision to include Salvia divinorum

 

and salvinorin A in Schedule 9 of the SUSDP. In particular, it was noted that a case

 

study (Hanes KR, 2001, Antidepressant Effects of the Herb Salvia divinorum: A Case

 

Report. J Clin Psychopharmacol 21; 634-635) stated that:

 

“Ms G volunteered that she also benefited from occasional intoxicating oral doses of

 

Salvia divinorum, consisting of from 8-16 leaves of the herb (approximately 2 to 4

 

grams), claiming that this herb had engendered a kind of ‘psychospiritual’ awakening,

 

characterized by the discovery of the depth of her sense of self, greater self-confidence,

 

increased feelings of intuitive wisdom and ‘connectedness to nature’.”

---

Regardless I think I'd love to hear if anyone of the TGA members have any finical interesting in developing anti-depressants.

[ 05. March 2005, 15:01: Message edited by: bloodbob ]

[mescalito]

Quote khanes:"Whilst I am aware that the plant is now prohibited for use in Australia"

that and actually owning any part or growing the plant as a collector will land you in shit.

Quote khanes:" I was wondering whether others had used the plant in a ritual way in Australia, prior to its prohibition here and were concerned at this intrusion into their spiritual or religious freedom?"

everything the government classifies as a "no touch" area with regards to entheogens DOES.

Just because I'm white and live in Australia doesn't mean I have to be a right-wing bible-bashing child-molesting priest to have religion in my life!

And what exactly does the TGA have to do with religion anyway?...ahh I get it the TGA are run by right-wing bible-bashing child-molesting priests....hmmm now I get it .

Sorry just clearing my throat and damn that feels better :D

[Amulte]

This is the funniest thread ive seen so far...

:D

LOL

Karl R. Hanes

LOL

:D

P.S and you left Cognitive Neuropsychiatrist out of you occupation thingy just to name one

oh and there is a difference

[ 05. March 2005, 15:50: Message edited by: Amulte ]

[Torsten]

I only used salvia occasionally and was never drawn to it as a spiritual tool as such. Most trips either went too far resulting in amnesia or not far enough. The best trips were from extracts and purified salvinorin. I guess there is a fine line between spiritual exploration and self exploration, but I saw salvia more for the latter.

However, many people in australia (incl on these forums) have had intense spiritual relationships with salvia. I hope you can draw some of them out to talk about it.

[apothecary]

Torsten, I've never had the chance to exlpore salvia, so you're going to have to excuse my probably stupid questions.

Have you ever tried salvia in traditional methods?

I remember reading the custom was 3 x 7 (21) leaf quid in the mouth chewing and stuff until the high comes on.

I hear that method is the most long lasting trip, and that might make it different from the short trips the extract delivers.

Also, can you elaborate on the difference between spiritual and self exploring ethneogens? Interesting idea

Shame I couldn't try salvia. My gnome is so eager to try it that if he can't find a plant by some stroke of luck, that he'll go up to Nimbin. He heard somewhere people sell cuttings up there.

[ 05. March 2005, 21:21: Message edited by: apothecary ]

[Torsten]

Originally posted by apothecary:

Have you ever tried salvia in traditional methods? I remember reading the custom was 3 x 7 (21) leaf quid in the mouth chewing and stuff until the high comes on.

I did this initially with australian leaf without success. Then I got some mexican and had good results after rehydrating it.

The traditional method is to NEVER smoke it. For a culture that sticks nearly everything in a pipe, the mexicans made a point of not doing it with salvia. And I think that is the crux of the problem. Most westeners just want the thrill of the trip, forgetting how comparatively unpleasant and uncontrollable it is when smoked. Buccal absorption methods deliver a gentle and insightful trip very much like mushroom in terms of exploration potential. In terms of buccal absorption it doesn't matter just how you do it - fresh leaf, dry leaf, tincture, resin etc they all give more or less the same effect except some are more efficient than others. None have that 'hit in the head with a dimensional twister' effect.

I hear that method is the most long lasting trip, and that might make it different from the short trips the extract delivers.

Exactly, and hence so much more insightful and 'workable'.

Also, can you elaborate on the difference between spiritual and self exploring ethneogens? Interesting idea

At the time of consuming salvia I was still quite a spiritual person (although loathing religions). I still regard myself as spiritual, but I now generally do not believe in spirits/entities *outside* the mind. I think the magic all happens courtesy of our funky neurotransmitters and receptor sites. So, this has ended my spiritual search, because what there is to find is not in any place other than in myself. But it was this search that I would define as the spiritual exploration. The personal exploration on the other hand (while related) is more about finding, analysing, and changing yourself. To me they were quite separate as i could happily go self exploring without ever entering any spiritual process.

[ 05. March 2005, 23:30: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[teonanacatl]

any clues to why aussie leaf seems so crap???? ive heard that sally wont even grow well up here.

[2b]

I read that as all sylvia in australia was always grown from cuttings and the seed produced if any is unviable, that all plants can be traced back to one original mother plant so i'm guessing that all plant in Aus (if not the world !) are the same .

While i'm on the subject isn't it amazing that a plant evolves that reproduces vegitivley ? I mean what chance did it ever have in nature yet the clone/cuttings are so widely available.

[Guest electro]

i found salvia a profound tool for use in spiritual exploration & self development ...

in am matter of minutes it had done what years therapy and mood stabilisers hadnt managed to. salvia = spiritual & emotional healing cannonball !

[occidentalis]

Originally posted by bloodbob:

 

quote:

---

 

“Ms G volunteered that she also benefited from occasional intoxicating oral doses of

 

Salvia divinorum, consisting of from 8-16 leaves of the herb (approximately 2 to 4

 

grams), claiming that this herb had engendered a kind of ‘psychospiritual’ awakening,

 

characterized by the discovery of the depth of her sense of self, greater self-confidence,

 

increased feelings of intuitive wisdom and ‘connectedness to nature’.”

Yep, better ban that stuff quick.

[ 06. March 2005, 15:16: Message edited by: creach ]

[apothecary]

2b:

I read that as all sylvia in australia was always grown from cuttings and the seed produced if any is unviable, that all plants can be traced back to one original mother plant so i'm guessing that all plant in Aus (if not the world !) are the same .

While i'm on the subject isn't it amazing that a plant evolves that reproduces vegitivley ? I mean what chance did it ever have in nature yet the clone/cuttings are so widely available.

I think salvia seeds in general aren't viable much because the plant is a hybrid or something, and isn't self compatible.

The idhttp://www.shaman-australis.com.au/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001394#000001ea goes into much deeper discussion here:

[occidentalis]

2b:

I read that as all sylvia in australia was always grown from cuttings and the seed produced if any is unviable, that all plants can be traced back to one original mother plant so i'm guessing that all plant in Aus (if not the world !) are the same .

While i'm on the subject isn't it amazing that a plant evolves that reproduces vegitivley ? I mean what chance did it ever have in nature yet the clone/cuttings are so widely available.

There are a few different strains circulating around in the US but I've only seen the standard Wasson & Hoffman in Aus. There has been some speculation that the species is in fact a hybrid or the result of some other genetic weirdness but I'm not sure of the current state of thought on this subject.

[ 06. March 2005, 15:28: Message edited by: creach ]

[khanes]

“ I'll just point out the obvious here Dr Hanes did you know that part of the reason to ban the plant was in relation to your work? “

Hi there bloodbob,

I’m more than happy to shoulder the blame, and I’m sure the NDPSC Committee is not without a sense of humour, but there are some additional considerations:

1. The decision to prohibit the use of the plant was taken in Meetings 32 (August, 2001) and 33 (November, 2001) of the NDPSC. The document you are quoting from is from Meeting No. 36 (15-17 October, 2002). My work was published in December, 2001 and was most probably brought to the Committee’s attention by the anti-prohibition campaign of Thomas Munro in 2002.

2. My own work is consistent with the therapeutic effects of the plant, both in small and large doses. The comical reference to my work in Meeting 36 may have been an attempt to make up for the lack of evidence presented by the Committee, in reaching its decision, that the plant had actually been used in Australia, let alone represented a ‘threat to public health and safety’

3. The Minute sent to the NDPSC by the Office of Complementary Medicines in August, 2001, for consideration of ‘salvia divinorum Epling & Jativa as a potentially harmful drug substance’ reads as follows: ‘Various reports (Valdes, 1994: Giroud et al, 2000) have suggested that this herb may have become a popular and legal recreational drug in other countries.’

4. The August, 2001 Meeting 32 of the NDPSC also reads: ‘At least (deleted) was advertising Salvia divinorum for sale in Australia and some broad based email discussion groups on Australian web sites have included discussion threads on Salvia divinorum.’

5. Administratively, the case for prohibition of this plant in Oz started not with me but with another K-Man, Karl Skewes, Scientific Officer, Office of Complementary Medicines, who prepared a Minute for the Director of the Group, Dr Fiona Cumming, who sent the Minute requesting consideration of this plant to the NDPSC, received 7/08/01 addressed to Mr Mick Oconnor, Secretary, NDPSC, cc. Mr Pio Cesarin, Manager, Chemicals and Non-prescriptions Medicines Branch; Dr David Briggs, Manager, Complementary Medicines Evaluation and Group. The Office of Complementary Medicines is a group launched on the 28 April, 1999 in Parliament House, Canberra, for the regulation of ‘complementary medicines’ such as ‘herbal, vitamin, mineral, homeopathic, naturopathic and other similar preparations.’(www.health.gov.au).

6. Internationally, work supporting the therapeutic effects of this plant is critical to the case against its prohibition since, in many countries, therapeutic effects of a substance have to be considered, from a legal standpoint, by regulatory communities (see Section 52E of the Australian Therapeutic Goods Act 1989).

For what it’s worth, the evidence, based on a careful study of documents released under FOI, indicates that salvia divinorum appears to have came to the attention of the TGA via Customs, which expressed concern to the TGA at various times in 2000-2001 (no documents available for these contacts between the two agencies, which it is suggested may have been by telephone) regarding several ‘personal shipments of Salvia divinorum’ (the question arises as to why customs would apprehend shipments of a legal substance is not without relevance).

The records also indicate that the following email message was sent to Customs, who queried the Surveillance Unit of the TGA, by an anonymous member of the public:

From: (deleted)

Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 6:06 PM

To: [email protected]

Subject: Are there any laws or restrictions on Salvia divinorum?

To Australian Customs Service,

Can I get some information relating to any restrictions on Salvia Divinorum or its extracts? Mainly, I want to find out if it is legal to import small quantities of it to Australia and the tax on it.

Yours faithfully,

M (deleted) (first name 6-8 letters, second name 6-10 letters?)

I found this message unusual for a number of reasons, for instance that it was well known to most who knew of the plant in April, 2001 that it was legal to use everywhere in the world. At this stage, I am not sure whether this query was foolhardy or mischievous.

The records also indicate that an article from the NZ Herald by Bridget Carter published on the 19 July, 2001, was circulated widely through the TGA community by customs officials under the subject heading “More notoriety for salvia’, originally posted to the newsgroup [email protected]; [email protected].

“Everything the government classifies as a “no touch” area with regards to entheogens Does.”

I take your point. There may be advantages to fighting these things on a case by case basis. The advantage that salvia divinorum has is that people can step forward and publically talk about and defend their recent use of this plant, whereas this is not readily the case with other entheogens, most of which were banned over 30 years ago.

“This is the funniest thread I’ve seen so far… PS. … Oh and there is a difference”

I had published previously, from work at a Cognitive Neuropsychiatry Research Unit (1994-1995). What’s ‘LOL’? I didn’t quite follow the reference ‘oh and there is a difference.’?

“fine line between spiritual exploration ….’

“Many people in Australia (incl on these forums) have had intense spiritual relationships with salvia.”

Thank you. The line between spiritual exploration and self-exploration can indeed be very fine, there are many who would not find the need to draw any distinction.

I am in touch with many people from around the world who have used s. divinorum. Unfortunately, the case for relegalisation here must be built on the experiences of local people with this plant and I do know of some who have used salvia in Oz, including a number of patients from Victoria, but would welcome further testimony from Australians (and I am informed that there have been many orders of the plant here). As I mentioned earlier, obviously it is only appropriate to talk publically about legal use of the plant and, with salvia d., any experiences prior to June 1st, 2002 are legal and defensible on numerous grounds. I am planning to take a case shortly to various organizations in Australia, having considerable evidence of the plant’s legitimate use to draw from already, and any additional testimonial support (in confidence) from Australians who had legally used the plant would obviously be welcomed (Postal: PO BOX 1193 Carlton Victoria 3053; Email [email protected]).

“in a matter of minutes it had done what years of therapy and mood stabilizers hadn’t managed to.”

I have had a very similar experience with salvia divinorum. Based on my own clinical interest in the plant, I had used it mainly through the period of 1999-2000, both by itself and in combination with a dedicated vipassana meditation practice of some years and also audio tape technologies for inner exploration (eg. hemisync) and have an extensive catalogue of experiences with the plant. Like many valuable spiritual or other endeavours, I think it does take considerable dedication to learn how to work with this plant but, where one can integrate the experiences it offers, which is where other tools such as meditation come into their own, personally I have not found anything else that can provide as many insights into one’s inner workings, pathology, psychic potentials, etc, irrespective of what one’s philosophical persuasion, in such a short time. Given the rapid effects, some people (including misinformed journalists) expect to stick it in a pipe and have mind-blowing breakthrough, zazen-type experiences in a few seconds. It is often those who move beyond what may be initially superficial experiences, even suffering occasional unpleasantness, that most benefit from this and other resources for the exploration of human potential.

[apothecary]

Well said.

One thing you will notice about this forum khanes, that sets it apart from all other forums is that even if people have a reason to dislike you or similar, they will still answer your questions and help you informatively and quickly.

Keep asking your questions. I hope you become a regular participant on this forum.

[simon_marklar]

i dont see any difference between personal exploration and spiritual exploration - to know yourself is to know your god.

[Torsten]

Karl - the customs reference is interesting. Did you know that Trio Trading was importing salvia and ran into trouble with customs well before the scheduling? See, they weren't after salvia at the time as far as I under stand, but rather Trio is australia's main importer of "Ecstacy Cigarettes", a business run By TOE (Temple of Ecstacy) a company well known to customs in australia and the FDA in the USA.

TOE is run by Sean Shayan who many years ago breezed into australia, hit the market hard with "herbal ecstacy" that he sold via a stunning advertising campaign, made 3 million in a matter of a few weeks, and left the country as a warrant for his arrest was being issued. Since then one of the best ways to get customs harrassing you is to import any TOE products.

Trio Trading however was already importing various TOE products when Sean Shayan in his infinite wisdom decided to release a salvia 10x. It came in a tiny box with his usual perfect gimmicky packaging, but it was in fact equivalent to a 2 to 3x compared to what else was around in australia.

Trio Trading is the company that distributes all the 'novelty' lighters you see in service stations, as well as the cheapo sunglasses you see at markets and in small stores. They also supply virtually all of the bongs and bong spareparts around australia. They have a huge distribution network, and salvia had just become a hot seller. In a matter of a few weeks salvia was everywhere. And then suddenly it was gone. I didn't realise at the time, but the decision to prohibit salvia had just been made. In a call to Trio Trading I was told that they would not be importing it anymore due to customs problems. I assumed it was the usual community protection group issues and Trio was just sick of having to put up with them. A few weeks later I saw the scheduling and was the first to alert the community of the impending doom - accompanied by much ridicule and disbelief as everyone believed the SUSDP was a 'toothless tiger'.

The TGA hate Sean Shayan / TOE so much that if they could get away with it they would probably try and schedule the raspberry leaf cigarettes he peddles

Here is one guy who really stuck it to them and got away with it filthy rich.

I'd love to know who that name at #4 is. Obviously I am high on the list, but at that time I hadn't had any run ins with the TGA yet. Both Steve and Ray were selling salvia too and had had their dealing with the good folks at the TGA. But I think the most likely contender, especially considering the customs implications appears to be Trio Trading.

As for the email that was sent to customs, I believe it would be 100% genuine. I get such emails at least twice a week and many state that they had already contacted customs, police, or dept of health, but did not get an immediate reply. Some people just aren't very bright when it comes to these things.

[apothecary]

I wasn't sure if you were being serious or not, so I didn't say anything before...

LOL stands for Laugh out Loud and is said on the internet when people find something funny

[khanes]

"One thing you will notice about this forum..."

Thanks. Two of those closest to me in this life initially didn't like me or vice versa.

What I do appreciate in sharing information with others is frankness and accuracy and, from what I've seen so far, these qualities are common on this forum.

"LOL stands for Laugh out Loud..."

In passing, my understanding was that it could mean 'Laugh out loud', 'Lots of Laughs' or 'Lots of love'. In saying 'what's LOL' I was more interested in the reason for the LOL.

"i dont see any difference between personal exploration and spiritual exploration - to know yourself is to know your god."

There are many who would agree. Even amongst those who would disagree, I am sure that there would be some acknowledgement of the sacredness of life, human or otherwise. Even in the Book of Genesis, which some still take to be an authority on such issues, it is clearly stated that: 'And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living soul.'

Now, I'm not a Minister of a church but I would have thought, given that the breath of life, call it a state of being, consciousness, an aspect of the subconscious, etc, is divine that, by definition, even from a Judaeo-Christian perspective, one could accurately proclaim "to know yourself (eg. the breath of life aspect of oneself) is to know God."

"Did you know that Trio Trading was importing salvia and ran into trouble with customs well before the scheduling?"

Thanks for the information. I wasn't aware of this and am very interested in the detail eg. dates) of dealings between the TGA, Customs and organisations in Australia involved in the legal supply of salvia divinorum products. I believe that raw plant products raise Quarantine issues but that processed products for therapeutic use are all covered by Customs regulations, ie. one can import for personal use a 3 month supply ('at the maximum recommended dosage') up to five times a year. If the supply were from a local plant source, however, I'm not sure on what the exact implications are from a Therapeutic Goods

perspective, though presumably the issue would be registration as a listable medicine, etc. Labelling is probably crucial in this area, since many products for culinary, homeopathic, ornamental or other uses (eg. oregano), even psychoactive products (eg. nutmeg) are freely sold without reference to any formal TGA requirements. I don't know how significant the issue of Trio Trading is - if there were Quarantine or other issues, I pressume Customs would have dealt with this company but I'm giving some consideration to filing an FOI request with Customs for further information about their handling of salvia divinorum issues.

"A few weeks later I saw the scheduling..."

I pressume you're referring to the November 33rd Meeting of the NDPSC. I remember seeing a reference to you on Dan Siebert's alert on this matter. The Scheduling did catch many by surprise and I regret not having had the opportunity to respond to the brief public consultation process of the NDPSC following its August meeting.

"As for the email that was sent to customs, I believe it would be 100% genuine."

I take your word on that but I always like to be absolutely certain. This plant (and others like it) has many enemies and so its friends have to be extremely diligent, in battling considerable administrative odds, to stand any chance of protecting it. The government haven't given too much away on the precise detail of this prohibition and, especially given the severity of associated penalties, every name, date, email link, query, reference, the vocabulary and terminology used, the devil in the detail, has to be thoroughly scrutinised for a mistake or breach of some kind (eg. evidence of attempts to interfere in the scheduling process).

"I'd love to hear if anyone in the TGA have any financial interests in developing antidepressants."

"the TGA is run by right-wing, bible-bashing ..."

These issues are not without relevance. But who's looking? A study published in the November 2000 Medical Journal of Australia suggests that 8.2 million prescriptions (and most antidepressants go for at least $50 a packet) were written in 1998 (5.1 in 1990) so the pharmaceutical industry is reaping massive benefits from these substances and would have a considerable vested interest in preventing the introduction of natural antidepressants onto the market. The case of St John's Wort is seen by many as an example of how strong the resistance of the medical and pharmaceutical industries to natural therapeutics.

More generally, having had contact with some of its members, I'm quite sure that most of the people working at the TGA are impartial professionals who have inherited the culture of prohibition and have to live with it. Nonetheless, the enemies of salvia divinorum (and similar plants) are very well known and it would not totally surprise me to find some evidence of their (probably quite subtle influence within the TGA structure in Australia.

[Thelema]

It is STILL the case that the chemical nomenclature for salvinorinA in the SUSDP is wrong! Even after good ol TM effected a change from an earlier wrong nomenclature!

We must also be aware that there is no formal procedure written into the TGA Act or its regulations governing the NDPSC that allow for reconsidering of a scheduling decision.

So my question, good doctor, is how to effect a reconsideration? There is no law or procedure to help you do this, regardless of any evidence you might muster. It might seem to come down to personally influencing the NDPSC directly, and I do not hold much hope in that.

[khanes]

"how to effect a reconsideration? There is no law or procedure to help you do this"

Hi thelema. I regret the delay in responding. Yes, this is a difficult case and I'm well aware of the statutory limitations. I suppose it's a question of doing what one can under the circumstances. But I think it would be wrong to assume that there is nothing to be done. As you and others have pointed out, this ruling hardly represents good regulatory practice and, whilst there's not much gain in publically outlining strategy generally speaking, one approach may be to expose the weaknesses (and there are many) of this legislation (even within the TGA), whilst at the same time raising a potentially important awareness within the Australian community. I'm note sure how many Aussies would have actually heard of the NDPSC or TGA?

Now I have a long list of things that I intend to do in this area, as time permits. As an initial step, it may be serviceable to put under the microscope those individuals central to the prohibition - based on a cursory inspection, I'm quite sure they are not members of the 'Basement Shamans Guild' or followers of a 'Nature Philosophy.' It may be possible to highlight issues of representation or lack of attention to human rights, etc.

All the cards are not yet on the table. Best wishes.

[apothecary]

If there's anything on that list you think members of this community might be able to help you with, you should definitely ask.

For example...a few years ago I made cash on the side digging dirt up on people from the internet...I know we have people here studying law too.

We're a versatile bunch, and willing to help.

[Thelema]

Would it be too much to ask for you to apply for permission to conduct a clinical trial with SD? You seem to be the one person interested in australia with the necessary credentials to be able to apply for such experimentation with this S9 medicine. Maybe you ARE setting the groundwork for such a thing.

Good luck to you if you are, it seems like you might have a field of paperwork in front of you, which you do not seem shy of.

This to me seems the most logical way of establishing medicinal merit...it's ironic that you happen to be in Autralia!

So yes, I see maybe why you are so interested in gathering primae facie reports of medicinal effects. I only wish there were some way I could help you apart from being an anecdotal statistic!

[Skulking Lurker]

You could be a medicinal trial subject, Thelema..... then again, thinking a little more about it, any conclusions and/or inferences gained from the study, could only be described as skewed, extreme, incongruous, and certainly wouldn't do the legitimacy of the whole project any favours.

......And that's probably with the placebo !!

[ 17. March 2005, 20:44: Message edited by: Skulking Lurker ]

[mescalito]

"...could only be described as skewed, extreme, incongruous"

Who Thel? :D

I reckon there be a few good candidates here on this forum for a trial re:depression.

Besides the fact that most of us have a fairly good picture (and can vouch) of where each other is already at,it seems to be rampant amongst ethno-heads and some of our posts tend to reflect this I think.

I'd go so far as to say that for most sufferers here there is some major connection to nature and brain chemistry and we know it so why wouldn't we prefer a natural medication??

I've been through the whole anti-depressant thing as a few members here have and had to give up on them because of shocking side-effects or absolutely no remission of symptoms.We are all separate individuals and this chemical crap is so broad in it's efficacy plus you ask ANY doctor-dunghead(it's going in the dictionary next year :D ) "how do anti-depressants work...?" and you'll get what you see on question time blah blah we don't know blah blah...sit down..turn back..smirk..

BUT If I were to give someone an option for cognitive enhancement,anti-depressant anti-anxiety action and general well-being, then DMT,Salvia and 'shrooms would be at the top of the list as opposed to ssri's,nsri's,Benzo's etc etc

My reasoning personally, would be that these things are short acting physically as far as "side-effects" go, yet long lasting psychologically/spiritually particularly if sessions are guided by an experienced psychonaught unlike anti-deps which feel like they wash the soul out of you plus it takes weeks and you're supposed to 'get on with your life' at the same time.

I know I speak for most if not all here with experience with Sally that you CANNOT abuse this plant!!,she simply won't allow you to.She gave me a hard time when I smoked a few cones before she was scheduled but I'm glad she did...it was the kick-in-the-arse I needed.

Good luck khanes I really hope we can be of mutual assistance here,but remember it was only a few years ago that we worked out YOU DON'T GO BLIND from masturbating

My 6 cents.