ssri,s would you?

[shroomy]

assuming you have been feeling depressed for some time and are diagnosed as depressed would you take the doctors advise and start a course of ssri,s

[waterdragon]

i'd try a course of st johns wort before resorting to brand names. or you could just try one of everything and shock that depression into submission.

[waterdragon]

oh and if it's actually you that's feeling depressed then that's the 'mid lifey' that i warned of, the good news is that it passes.

[Absinthe]

Yeah, it passes, just might take a year or two I've used Zoloft and Prozac. The Zoloft never really did much, except for destroy my sex-drive. I think they just level things out a bit, the depression is a phase that will pass, but I guess some drugs MAY be effective in SOME people. When I was on Ritalin and experiencing some pretty bad come-downs, my shrink gave me Prozac and that levelled out the dose a bit.

Jon

[Darklight]

shroomy:

would you take the doctors advise and start a course of ssri,s

Aw, I'm not gunna vote til you qualify the question- are you assuming that the patient has tried other avenues for treatment prior to the offer of SSRI script- or not?

[Darklight]

waterdragon:

oh and if it's actually you that's feeling depressed then that's the 'mid lifey' that i warned of, the good news is that it passes.

Oi, he's younger than me y'know... are you planning on killing him off early or something?

[waterdragon]

nope, the fuckers unkillable. i've tried every poisonous illegal known to man, washed down with alcohol. bastard just keeps recovering.

[Waz]

I find the SSRI's are just that, an antidepressant. They block out the negative thoughts, but they also seem to make you feel numb with emotion.

Sexual side effects are shit.

[shroomy]

Darklight:

 

Darklight:

would you take the doctors advise and start a course of ssri,s

Aw, I'm not gunna vote til you qualify the question- are you assuming that the patient has tried other avenues for treatment prior to the offer of SSRI script- or not? Ok than, the patient has not tried any other avenue and that was the reason i posted the poll, to stimulate disscusion on the matter, as far i can see (butt in right here please Torsten or rev or dl ) ssri,s stop the receptors from re absorbing serotonin therefore increasing serotonin levels to a more comfortable level. buy taking 5htp or some other serotonin precurser you also increase serotonin levels but you still let the uptake receptors do there job right? do these re-uptake receptors preform other functions if not than what is the problem with ssri,s?.

WD- St johns wort is in itself a ssri all be it a natural alternitive right? and yes i know im gunna get stomped on for not researching myself but lets face it you guys are so much better at it than me , any help or advise or just your thoughts would be apprieciated. maybe a night a two at wd,s would be a good tempory cure.

[shroomy]

waterdragon:

nope, the fuckers unkillable. i've tried every poisonous illegal known to man, washed down with alcohol. bastard just keeps recovering.

roflmfao haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa yes we have pushed the envelope a bit heeee

[Rev]

wouldnt touch them no matter what

Id get a script for tryptophan and up my intake of Meat, Turkey and salmon - feelgood food and not just for the tryptophan - taste is a nice moodlifter too

And try some tyrosine and 5HTP as well to beat any acute cases

Other than making sure the bod isnt the cause of the problem - and if it is youre going to have to confront the reason sooner or later - i dont know what you can do.

Most often the crisis passes or else needs to be dealt with but now you are talking psychotherapy not psychiatry and so SSRIs arent really addressing the problem anyway

Trust a doctors diagnosis? are you kidding

[Torsten]

Originally posted by shroomy:

ssri,s stop the receptors from re absorbing serotonin therefore increasing serotonin levels to a more comfortable level. buy taking 5htp or some other serotonin precurser you also increase serotonin levels but you still let the uptake receptors do there job right? do these re-uptake receptors preform other functions if not than what is the problem with ssri,s?.

The main problem with SSRI's is that they are not 100% SSRI's. They also retain the other transmitters to some degree and with varying consequences in different people. For example, if you have VERY low serotonin, normal dopamine and high adrenaline (this is a very common situation in depression), then taking an SSRI won't help the serotonin much as you don't have enough anyway. SSRI's don't increase serotonin, they just make longer use of the quantity that's there. But SSRI's can also retain some adrenaline. So suddenly you have still low serotonin, medium dopamine and escalating adrenaline... and possibly the first anxiety attack of your life (a most frightening moment and for many people a turning point in doubting their sanity).

SSRI's also seem to change many people and this change does not appear to go away after their use.

As for the action of a theoretical 100% SSRI, I am also not convinced that it is the best concept. And before you dismiss my criticism please consider that in some countries it is just as fashionable to prescribe Selective Serotonin Reuptake Stimulants!! So when you go back to the initial research on SSRI's you will find that their succes rate is not much higher than placebo and about the same as properly administered tryptophan. So why take them if the alternatives are so much safer??

The mode of action of SSRIs is something I have questioned from their release over 15 years ago. With any deficiency in your body you try to supplement the missing substance, a precursor or a supporting enzyme/compound. So why then try and mess with the recycling of serotonin if supplementing was just as effective? I dunno.

The problem is that SSRI's don't actually increase your serotonin levels, but rather they give you the perception that you have high serotonin levels. Essentially in that respect they are no different to MDMA and we all 'know' how bad that is for you The mechanism is a little different though hence one is illegal and the other one makes some company lots of money.

So if SSRI's don't increase sserotonin then how do they help? They keep whatever serotonin you have just released at the point where you can feel it - the synaptic cleft. Normally it would just flow out there, tell the other nerve ending that it's been there and then be reabsorbed into the cell where it came from. Once reabsorbed it would either be gobbled up by an enzyme and destroyed or it would be safely tucked into the reserve vesicles waiting to be released again. By stopping the reuptake you are also stopping a good percentage of it from being recycled and I think this is the downfall of SSRI's. When depressed you cannot afford to lose any from recycling just for the sake of smiling stupidly for a few extra minutes.

The effect of SSRI's is too unpredictable and has caused wayyyy to many deaths and drug zombies. On their own merit they should have been banned many years ago. And no, I am not just pharm bashing as you will see in a moment. if you go back to the serotonin cycle you will see that there are several steps where intervention can take place to improve things. The obvious one is to supplement and this has been covered on these forums plenty of times (with a good summary here by rev). The most obscure (in terms of common sense) is to use SSRI's. And the third is to fiddle with the enzyme that kills the goodies - MAO. Much research has been done on the effects of MAO and the only bad thing the inhibitors do is what the irreversible MAO inhibitors used to be famous for. But all that just doesn't apply anymore with the new generation MAOI's. The best thing is that MAOI's can be used in conjunction with supplementation (under the care of a naturopath or educated GP!!!!!!) for immediate, lasting and 'grass roots' effect. By grass roots I mean that such a treatment actually attacks the chemical cause of the depression rather than just pasting a smile over the top of a dire and often escalating situation. I have seen severely depressed people (incl suicidal, paranoid delusional, and uncontrollable rage) getting a grip in a matter of a week or two on a combo of moclobemide and tryptophan. I must stress that there are serious dangers involved here if a mistake is made and the dosage MUST be worked out individually by a physician (often in combination with a naturopath). These are pretty drastic measures though and should be attempted after supplementation alone has failed.

St johns wort is in itself a ssri all be it a natural alternitive right?

From experience I find that this herb has a VERY strong dopamine component. This is a good thing if you have mild depression, especially with motivational problems. It is NOT good for people with anxiety type depression, paranoia, rage or delusions (the high-adrenaline type depression) .

and yes i know im gunna get stomped on for not researching myself

My main gripe with the lazy approach is that most people just want the magic pill to make them smile, but are not really interested in understanding and fixing the underlying problems. I find that as soon as I can get someone interested in their own neurochemistry then they are usually already half healed.

Obviously there are also the underlying psychological issues and lifestyle matters to take into account as no treatment will be successful without fixing what caused the chemical imbalance in the first place.

[shroomy]

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Torsten:

 

My main gripe with the lazy approach is that most people just want the magic pill to make them smile, but are not really interested in understanding and fixing the underlying problems. [/QB]

---

I am in the clear than .

Thanks very much for the detailed response, my mind had been pretty much made up not to as soon as they were mentioned, i even susgested tryptophan but he didnt seem to take much notice "go figure". what you said about low serotonin and high adrenalin sounds about right in my case. oh well back to the pharmacy pusher to try and convince him to let me try some hard stuff like tryptophan .Thanks Torsten that was the response i was after and it just confirmed that my research wasnt out of date .

Rev what did you mean about the bod being the problem as in disease or somthing?.

[Darklight]

 

quote:

---

i even susgested tryptophan but he didnt seem to take much notice "go figure".

Go and find yourself another doctor who is sympathetic and willing to co-operate with your right to take part in your own treatment.

Thank f*k we're not in the American health system yet- we can still go and find a GP we like- as often as we need to ( and providing they bulk bill- for many of us still an economic necessity and a civilised privilege we are in danger of losing )

Bler... sorry, I digress... when I was looking for l-tryptophan and melatonin so I could self medicate as required ( as opposed to continuously medicate on SSRI's- not knocking them, they just weren't right for me ) I was recommended to a supposedly 'alternative' GP who went ballistic when I asked for melatonin, tho she'd never heard of it- cos she wanted me to take St Johns Wort tho I told her I had tried it and found it lacking. I went to another GP who told me he used to dispense l-tryptophan all the time- before Prozac came on the market

There's no accounting for tastes and trends when GPs treat patients- in addition to finding an outright competent one, a certain amount of empathy is required which can defy description, a sharing or acceptance of individual priorities. Certainly personal slants on life have an effect for all practitioners ( and chefs, and air conditioning mechanics and TC researchers ) when making professional decisions and no amount of university training can- or should- remove all of it

[shroomy]

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Torsten:

 

Essentially in that respect they are no different to MDMA and we all 'know' how bad that is for you [/QB]

---

yes that stuff is enough to put you off your pizza :D

[Torsten]

Originally posted by shroomy:

yes that stuff is enough to put you off your pizza :D

Re GP's, they don't actually have to be 'alternative' GP's. Mine is VERY conservative and doesn't like melatonin, tryptophan or any of that gobbledigook. However, he will prescribe it as long as I can show him that there is evidence of it's efficacy. His attitude is that if he doesn't know about something then that is a lack in his education rather than a shortcoming of the product. I almost like this guy better than my previous GP who was really alternative and was incredibly opinionated as well as indoctrinated by the naturopathy course he did. These days the naturopathy courses are little more than product placement training courses, and depending which school a naturopath was trained at he will push a certain range of products. I prefer the naturopaths who trained 15 years ago who still had to do much of their own trial and error research and produce their own crude preparations. These days it's all prepackaged, predosed and predigested.

[spiders]

ive tried St john's wort once and i found it to space me right out - i couldnt thinkstraight for days and felt worse rather than better

[mescalito]

Same here BM,just shows seretonins not all thats wrong if at all.

Mr T summed it up prolly better than I have ever read before in one spot.Maybe we should have a separate forum heading like "Matters of the Mind" or something.

Oh,and a chilli lovers section too!!

Besides all this,there is a multitude of chemical reactions going on each nano-second up there in the ol' grey matter.

Fine tuning that with an oral pill is like tuning your TV with a jack hammer.

So why do these companies try to sell us generic coctails like they're a 'one size fits all' option?

I'll leave that up to you conspiracy theorists to decide as I have my own opinions.

Jon,the old 'one pill to offset the other' is WAY too common these days,and I believe it will rear it's ugly side-effect head in the near future with devastating effects to all those guinea pigs including myself.

Waz,numb the emotions they do and sex just becomes a word.

"all praise the happy pill "

The SSRI's that I've taken have always given side-effects ranging from skin irritation and sun-sensitivity,which I also had from SJW,to climbing a tree and nearly jumping to my death,which is pretty scarey shit to think about now I don't take any anti-depressants and am under my 'own' control.

Be very careful shroomy.

Rev,I'm a vego right,so what would a veggie eat in place of meat,Turkey and Salmon for the same lift in these chems?

I'm sure there are some other vego's out there somewhere??

Oh and yeah milk is off the list too now.

Which leads me to the next rant....

Being a vego is not so easy,but,after being "diagnosed" with depression,I spent 2 years trialing every type of anti-depressant (including all of the SSRI's) bar moclobemide and Lithium,and have been A/D-free now for 12 months,after giving up on the whole anti-depressant fiasco.

Good news though,is that now I've been suddenly blessed with food intolerances and allergies like you wouldn't believe!!!

I fucken love it!

For example,your average brekky...I cannot eat.

ie.milk,wheat,sugar.

From there remove bacon 'cause it's meat-and eggs 'cause of allergies and it makes every day a challenge for grub.(not once I start growing mushies though Rev)

Replacing these foods with anything artificial and I'm crook as anyway!

The thing is,these intollerances and/or allergies didn't start happening until about mid-way through my so called 'treatment' and now I've read reports on how these drugs can make your nervous system hyper-sensitive :confused: .....I thought that would've been the cause in the first place :mad:

I guess I'll leave the rest up to you and good luck mate.

Good job asking too 'cause a bird in the hand is better than one over head

[Torsten]

Most vegos don't actually have a lack of tryptophan intake as they get a lot more via their pulses, whole grains and nuts. For them the more important aspect is that much of the tryptophan is used to make things other than serotonin. In a normal individual more than 90% of tryptophan is used to make things like one vitamin B. That leaves a maximum of 10% to be used for serotonin. vegetarians are usually deficient in several of the B vitamins, including the one made from tryptophan. This is why many long term vegetarians end up stressed out or depressed for no reason. Taking a good quality vit B complex (don't skimp as vit B preps can vary widely in quality and as a rule you get what you pay for) will often fix the problem very rapidly.

On the point of allergies, please remember that they are often a stress release valve for the body. Many allergies will fade when stress levels drop. Whatever caused the depression may have also put you on the path of allergies. Just be glad it's only food allergies and not lupus, rashes, migraines, rheumatism or psiorasis (all of which are also know to result from stress).

I've been meaning to write up the story of my recent food allergies, but it's a long story and it's only funny when told in one piece.... so it will have to wait for another day.

[Waz]

Serotonin is not what its all about, look into Dopamine and Nor-epinephrine, depending on your condition.

I guess remember balancing the levels is equally important to raising the critically low ones.

Theres all the precursors out there, but using them seems a bit tricky.

I use Tyrosine and 5-HTP right now, as well as every vitamin/mineral I need to get them working.

Dosage seems to be a very obscure area, both work well and even better in very high doses to start off with, but continued daily use renders them innactive until after a break, or atleast it appears that way.

[ 19. May 2004, 14:33: Message edited by: Waz ]

[spiders]

'Good news though,is that now I've been suddenly blessed with food intolerances and allergies like you wouldn't believe!!!

I fucken love it!

For example,your average brekky...I cannot eat.

ie.milk,wheat,sugar.

From there remove bacon 'cause it's meat-and eggs 'cause of allergies and it makes every day a challenge for grub.(not once I start growing mushies though Rev)'

Mate i know all about that - im intolerant to yeast, wheat, glucose and these tend to wax and wane = bloody annoying aint it? I used to be able to eat everything other than MSG which would send me into a 12 hour scratch-fest of fun... But like toristen points out, when you body is under some sort of stress from say a latent thyroid or hormonal imbalance or some other mess up, all these things tend to come out - and i got a prolapsed disc to add to the fun mid feb!!

This all started with my thyroid thingie, and now my quack thinks im moving into full blown CFIDS - because i did a survey where i got 49 out of 50 and if you get more than

[Rev]

Mescalito im not sure bout the trp thing with vegetarianism and havent looked into it

I think the best think when your down is a big bleeding chunk of roasted flesh. no bread no potatoes, maybe some salad if you want. eat your fill, always makes me feel better

without all the starchy crap mixed in your gut processes it easily and you dont get that awful bloated feeling from a mixed meal

in contrast if you want a starch meal leave out the meat, add egg, shrooms etc in place and it also sits better and feels less 'toxic'

i know this works for me but som many traditional preps go against its and still taste so good its hard sticking to it

as for mushies - youll love shimeji, and the oysters as you can have them on hand all thoughout the year fruiting off straw in shopping bags in the kitchen even

[gomaos]

I find the SSRI's are just that, an antidepressant. They block out the negative thoughts, but they also seem to make you feel numb with emotion.

That's all they have ever done for me, on the very few occasions I have tried them...

actually it made me feel like they took my "soul" away and left me totally empty, with nothing...

since then I don't touch that crap anymore...

depressions? cannabis is the best anti-depressant I know...

(btw I voted NO)

[ 20. May 2004, 10:22: Message edited by: gomaos ]

[planthelper]

why don't u try sceletium powder instead?

i was told ssr's need weeks to kick in, whilst sceletium improoves the mood just after seconds.

aswell i would not be surprised if sceletium contains a variety of other "actives" in combination, which make it overall saver to use than zoloft or the like.

one of those unknown substances must be responsible for the extreem fast action of scel.

a very good remedy against depression is salvia divinorum as said often befor.

the only draw back for using sally as an anti depressant, lies with its strong halucigenic properties. but those can be avoided if sceletium has been administerd before hand!

as a fact (from own experience), the combo scel and sally is so powerfull, that you can't even get angry or depressed if it would be quite normal to do so (recieving very sad new's or, theft, loss...)

vegitarian's are often lacking iron,

shiva is classified as a depressant, but i agree with gom, good shiva (early harvest's only, most pistils should be still whiteish) is an upper,

but very late harvest's will produce a downer!

some people's depression goe's away within day's once they stopp smoking pot... :cool:

[ 20. May 2004, 12:19: Message edited by: planthelper ]

[gerbil]

The salvia divinorum anti depressant is very interesting, don't know why I haven't read more on this, should get my arse into gear hehe, anyhoo, I had a few brief encounters with her back before illegal status, and with me it was definately uplifting below the visionary dose, an absolute immediate change which lasted a few days. This was with freshly dried leaf. But even with below visionary doses, I can see how it might not be the best idea to use constantly. Sceletium addition sounds promising.

I voted no for a few reasons.

-Doctors seem to prescribe them far too easily, it's almost like a quick fix and gets you out of their hair for a while. Have noticed alot of people mentioning similar things like this over the years.

-Long term effects aren't well understood.

-I don't really like supporting the pharmaceutical industry for things like this, there are just too many unknowns.

-Many friends on vast numbers of medications like this and similar which don't fix any problems, if anything it has made them worse.

-There quite possibly is always a natural alternative, safer and healthier. (also benefits of being self sufficient)

-Have limited experience with them, but found the negatives were greater than positive effects.

[ 20. May 2004, 13:11: Message edited by: gerbil ]