Long-spined "originally identified/true/wild" pachanoi type...

[gtarman]

Hey folks. So I've heard that the standard PC pachanoi and many look-alikes might not actually be the most true or original representation of the species - and I've heard talk of a different sort/variety that is generally quoted as being longer spined and perhaps fatter that is sometimes referred to as the "original" or "true", or "wild" pachanoi.

I'm wondering if anyone can post pics of any such plants and/or further info about the origin and locality and difference in appearance between these and the more commonplace varieties? And are they in cultivation at all?

I just can't really imagine a long-spined pachanoi, and have not come across them in my travels...to me the short spines are one of the key things I identify the name pachanoi with so I'm just curious to see what these other ones look like and to find out more about them (within the forum's rules of course).

Cheers all,

Gman

EDIT: typo in title.

Edited November 6, 2014 by gtarman

[DiscoStu]

http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/LAIM/pedro/pedro.html

[Foo]

This dude has a number of plants that would fit your description.

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=40081

[zed240]

This dude has a number of plants that would fit your description.

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=40081

Whilst these are wonderful plants I think most of the "pachanoi" look like varieties of peruvianus except for "pachanoi #3" in post 11.

I may be wrong obviously, but I think the longer spine pachanois look different to most of the ones in that post.

[edit] - I think lots are maybe a bit young to tell full characteristics too.

Edited November 6, 2014 by zed240

[Foo]

I agree. They look Peru to me as well.

Doesn't mean that much though

[mauve]

Isn't the spines patterning depending of the maturity of the plant in the case of the pachanoi ? Evenly spined when young then spineless at the top and long spined at the base when mature ?

[gtarman]

Thanks Discostu - Trout's website probably should have been my first port of call...had no idea he'd gone so in-depth on the topic.

And mauve: it seems spination is variable throughout the species.

So I guess now my question would be - are any of these black-flowered "bona-fide" pachanoi in cultivation here in Australia? And if so under what names? Clones?

[gtarman]

Also, I've seen KK339 mentioned but based on my quick searches there seem to be at least 2 different species under that label (or at the very least some unintended hybridization going on) - the spines on some of them were in no way pachanoi (more heavy and peru-ish spination), whilst some - like the image on Trout's website, looked very different, and very pachnoi.

Knize's reputation for such shennanigans is also cause for concern I think...all sources seem to say be wary of anything with a KK label on it...

Edited November 6, 2014 by gtarman

[zed240]

Does Yowie count as a "bona fide" pachanoi? Longer spines, notchy appearance, black hairs...

[Huachu Ma]

Whilst these are wonderful plants I think most of the "pachanoi" look like varieties of peruvianus except for "pachanoi #3" in post 11.

I may be wrong obviously, but I think the longer spine pachanois look different to most of the ones in that post.

[edit] - I think lots are maybe a bit young to tell full characteristics too.

I certainly would not want say all the names of my plants are correct. I bought the plants under the names.

And i think you are right with the age of the plants. And also the grow conditions do a lot for the look. For me, my pachanoi #1 is a "true" pachanoi form. I read what mauve write, some forms of pachanoi have only long spines on the lower levels. Because for protection of animals.

Greetings

Ps: sorry for my bad englisch

Edited November 6, 2014 by huachuma de alemania

[zed240]

Yes, huachuma, I think your "#1"looks like a nice pachanoi too. It actually reminds me of the clone here in Australia known as "Bogan". http://trichocereus.net/trichocereus-pachanoi-bogan/

[cactuscarl]

I have a few forms of #1 pachanoi and I believe they are the from huancabamba... I have seen very similar plants named kk339 and short spined peru but I reckon they are all "true" pachanoi

[cactuscarl]

This is a crested huancabamba x pachanoi.

I tried to upload a different pic but it was to large

[M S Smith]

Here's my T. pachanoi from the old Wildflowers of Heaven, now known as River's Source Botanicals.

~Michael~

[gtarman]

^ Nice, Michael

Does it have black hair on the flowers? And does anybody know if any of the Australian clones do? I'm curious to know if this bona-fide genotype is widely distributed in genetic terms, or if most Aussie clones are perhaps closer to something else.

[gtarman]

I certainly would not want say all the names of my plants are correct. I bought the plants under the names.

And i think you are right with the age of the plants. And also the grow conditions do a lot for the look. For me, my pachanoi #1 is a "true" pachanoi form. I read what mauve write, some forms of pachanoi have only long spines on the lower levels. Because for protection of animals.

Greetings

Ps: sorry for my bad englisch

Hey huachuma. To be honest the traits will probably become clearer with age and development, but in my eyes those are old enough to be showing their basic colours, figuratively speaking.

You do have some very nice plants regardless of the names. But my pattern-recognition based on all I've seen and read tells me that your pach # 1 may have some genetics other than just pachanoi in there. It certainly looks to be largely/predominately pachanoid, but the quality of the spination says (to me at least) that there is some other genetic material in there besides pachanoi. That being said I'm sure that many seed-grown plants where strict isolation procedures haven't been followed would inevitably mean that relatively few cultivated specimens would be 100% pure anything genetically. Just my 2c anyhow

[zed240]

^ Nice, Michael

Does it have black hair on the flowers? And does anybody know if any of the Australian clones do? I'm curious to know if this bona-fide genotype is widely distributed in genetic terms, or if most Aussie clones are perhaps closer to something else.

Like I said, Yowie is an Australian clone that has black hairs and longer spines than "normal". The areoles typically look very dark when they're freshly grown as well, not the light, white colour of other pachanoi's.

As always, the flower hair does seem to bleach a little in the harsh Aussie sun but is nothing like the pale grey/white of the PC.

[trucha]

Knize can potentially be a great source of material.

Just don't expect him to provide the same thing twice under the same name.

It is also noteworthy that the pachanoi typically sold in the witches markets are usually very short spined.

The nonWestern cultivars do exist in Western horticulture but most often need to be recognized by sight rather than by a label. Large wholesale growers and older cactus greenhouses in south Florida and on the Left Coast are where to look in the USA. San Diego to LA will be the most productive zone to locate them.

Don't be surprised if their growers try to tell you they are identical with the pachanot and the differing appearance is simply the result of differing conditions of growth. It is almost like some sort of a knee jerk response. Just nod, be polite and buy what you want.

Edited November 10, 2014 by trucha

[gtarman]

Thanks trucha - unfortunately I'm not in the US. Does anybody know of any vendors then that sell seeds for this bona-fide type pachanoi? Or perhaps plants (not just clones) in oz? ie seedlings and whatnot as well

It's got me quite curious

[trucha]

It is perplexing that some active wild seed collection in Ecuador and Peru, and their subsequent distribution, is not already underway.

I don't think it is a good idea to post sources for plants online since visibility works in all directions, including adversely, but with a little looking and patience I promise that you can find what you are looking for in Oz.

[zelly]

Does anybody know of any vendors then that sell seeds for this bona-fide type pachanoi?

I plan on selling hybrid seeds in the near future of a plant nitrogen has identified as the exact same plant as his TPQC

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33453&p=387656 (4th & 5th pic down)

crossed Juuls Giant (and the reverse) as well as Juuls crossed with huarazensis and the reverse, & TPQC x huarazensis, but all of these are of the short spined 'true' pachanoi variety.

[Optimystic]

Here is a Pach i've got, not to say its a bonafide wild Pach I dunno but I noticed late in the year it had grown some
unusually large and random spines on last years growth... Just here and there and they came out like the "replacement"

spines you frequently see happening on triches.. this is the most tolerant trich I have to heat and probably the fastest growing... it starts growing early when its still cool and keeps going through the summer heat a little faster than all the other triches... Seemed to be a bit of a rib shifter last year too... This one came from Arizona so perhaps its seed grown from there and that could
splain the heat tolerance but I really have not much data on it, was just labeled as a Pach

Another Pach I got off of ebay... hasn't grown long spines here at all but came to me from Sunny California where
the uber thick columns boasted longer than usual spines for a pachanoid... I had these in way too much shade last

year and plus the pots were way too small... but the new growth so far looks pretty typical for a bonafide Pach



here's a super smooth nearly spineless Pach Mama... You need good eyes to see the spines on the fat older
growth, or you can run your hands down the column and feel a single tiny spine on most aereoles... the tip Is a little
etoliated and the spines are a little more pronounced... I do love the smooth look of the spineless looking ones
but what im really a huge fan of are those with the heavy notching like Huarazensis



Lastly I've been wondering if this might be the same or closely related to the TPQC? Nitrogen mentioned before it looks like one of his plants but i never clarified which one... I've seen a nearly identical plant on a thread once and the poster claimed they got it at walmart... anyhow the spines are a little different, from a usual Pach as well - not very long, but longer than most pach spines... its also more of a blue shade... I do have one other pach that has the blue shade but I guess I didn't take any pics cause she didn't grow much this year.... perhaps a cross/intermediary with a peruvianoid? I guess I think of the True Pach's as being very green with the defined straight line grooves above each aereole....but then you run across the blue one here and there... I really love the look of the older growth on this plant ... at first was very sun sensitive and also the tips froze off last winter... I can see where something like this might have inspired the title "Short spine peruvianus" as it compares

a bit differently to most of the bonafide pach plants



When I first got this plant

Edited November 15, 2014 by Optimystic

[Optimystic]

I just did an update on this thread http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=34936&page=1

in there are a couple of different plants which show some longer spines... one on post #3 (which is the same as the first post)... you can see in later posts in the thread show the new growth which looks fairly typical with them being a bit on the knobby side... another plant towards the end which is my thickest trich so far and has some sorta long curlyish spines on the base... reminds me alot of Huanucoensis or some kind of fat hybrid maybe
but just guessing

[Caudata]

i got this plant at a Payless in Oakland a few years ago.

[mutant]

my first cactus that got me into cacti was a true pachanoi freebie I received as a 1.5 y,o. seedling that came as kk339. you can find many pics of that in here as the kk339 supposedly ecuadorian type from my collection. Its got short spines. after 5-6 years of growing it and propagating it, the initial mother plant is slowly doing LONG spines from the base and upwards.

The cactus I have labeled as NZ pachanoi, a common form in New Zealand, has even shorter spines.

Yowie, indeed has that characteristic double spines which are downwarding and somewhat long for a pachanoi, but the rest of the phenotype and even the type of spines are typical pachanoish.

so I can say I have 3 types of true pachanoi, kk339, nz pachanoi and yowie. (I am excluding the PC types)

in what I call peruvianoids & macrogonoids, the spines are different IME.