NSW / East Coast Fires

[El Presidente Hillbillios]

i heard a guy on the radio the other days saying about most of these bad fires start on unkempt government land.

I had a walk through the western sydney parkland yesterday and i have to say it really is a massive hazzard. The grass is waist high in most spots down to about knee high. All of it is dry as straw as we havent had any rain.

Any farmer worth anything would have eaten that down with stock, cut and baled or controlled burned that as it is a massive danger. But they seem to do nothing. The place is surrounded by houses and is 1000's of acres that are the same with only a few small parts that are cared for. Im sure if it was private land the council would have been onto them to fix the problem.

They prolly would say they dont have the money to take care of their responsibilities, but that cant be true, it really doesnt cost money to maintain a short paddock with stock. In fact it makes money. They have the money to randomly plant natives that aint even watered in and all cark it by the 10000's. seems to me to be managed by someone that dont really get it.

Mark my words that place is a big disaster waiting to happen

Guess whats on fire right now? Lucky the wind is blowing it the other way from my house

[tarenna]

Sorry if I struck a nerve Darklight. I have no gripes against the people that do the hard yards on the ground, if it weren't for them there would have been thousands of properties lost without doubt.

They are true heroes in every sense of the word, putting themselves in the firing line while their own properties & families are at risk -truly noble stuff.

So it seems that it's a legislative problem where they've been bogged down by red tape. Something is truly wrong with the system if a Mayor and the majority of the residents won't be listened to. I walked through one of the affected areas with my seven year old son recently and everything was dead and crunchy underfoot and he said to me "I hope we don't get a fire, if we do all of this would burn". A child could see it.

So who is ultimately responsible ?

If it's not local government then it must fall back on the state government.

Most of these fires were on government land that simply wasn't managed properly.

Hey Sally

Not sure about your continual use of "back burning" - I think you might mean "hazard reduction burning"??

Not wanting to start WWIII here - but I need to comment on several of the points that you have raised.

1. There is abundant evidence from across SE Australia that hazard reduction burning does not have a significant influence on saving assets (houses sheds etc). I can provide lots of credible references for this if you require them. The most effective actions for saving assets are those undertaken within and immediately surrounding the asset (e.g. mowing and clearing vegetation/fuel and ensuring buildings are built to a standard that protects against radiant heat and ember attack).

2. Suggesting that not burning public lands has caused all the problems being experienced is simply wrong. People need to take responsibility for their own lives and properties. Actions such as building for bushfire protection and having a bushfire survival plan are the types of actions that make a difference.

The rants of the Mayor are just that - emotive rants designed to press emotional buttons. You get that from local pollies an awful lot. His allegations that hazard reduction burning was in some way "blocked" by the powers that be are a complete fabrication. No members of the relevant Bushfire Risk Management Committee (including several staff from his Council) raised any concerns about not being able to undertake hazard reduction burns and 90% of scheduled burns were completed.

Best to get your facts straight....

[tarenna]

Maybe the government should make/help people be more prepared, for example it you want to build a house were there is high fire risk it should be mandatory to have a fire bunker on your property & sprinkler systems installed on your roof! This would surly save lives. Personally I would not consider living in the bush with out these two things. This are the kind of things I mean by more can be done. If you live in a flood pron area & don't have your house built at the right height you can't get insurance.

@Sally, I think your friends are lucky to have people like you in there lives!! If you want to call people that volunteer to put there lives in danger to help others heroes then I would have to agree & I think most of them would appreciate our respect, some just do like to admit it.

Cheers

Jox

In NSW it is mandatory to build for bushfire protection for all new subdivisions and single dwellings. These conditions make a huge difference to the vulnerability of a community and the houses within it. Older houses and communities that have not built to these standards are highly vulnerable.

Bunkers are a bit of a double edged sword - they can be really risky if done wrong. Because of this there is no policy or legislation covering bunkers within NSW.

[Sallubrious]

Yeah I'd did mention backburning when I should have said hazard reduction burning. I hadn't slept and had been fighting a fire all night.

The Mayors rants may have been emotive but he burnt his property (without permits) in the cooler months and his place got through unscathed while many around him burned.

I didn't suggest not burning it caused all the problems, I just stated that there was a known hazard and no effort was made to deal with it. The area had dead leaf litter 6 inches deep in many areas.

I need some sleep

[GoOnThen]

I am probably a bit older than some here and in some ways my values are looked upon as a granddad rant but I truly believe that the lacking of community spirit and thinking of others is the base of allot of issues that we face.

Having to always find someone to blame for every event in our lives, not taking responsibility for our own actions and Its all about me me me have made a political nightmare not only for the average person but for organisations like Bush fire brigades.

I cant give any figures but I believe we are way behind with our prescribed burns in WA yet again this year. And again the is an outcry of why hasn't there been more done but you don't have to look very far to understand why.

Last year a prescribed burn got away and caused a far bit of damage to property and the finger pointing started straight away.

Every year when the bigger prescribed burns start we get smoke hanging around for a few days and of course that is good enough the city folk living on there postage stamp blocks get up in arms. They only want the burns done if it doesn't effect them at all but they are the first to point the finger when things go wrong

Another issue that I have come up against is trying to find the person or department responsible for a piece of land.

Just because a piece of land is vacant doesn't mean it is government land as such it could be controlled by a number of different departments or entities and to get someone to accept responsibility for the fire hazard on that piece of land can be an absolute nightmare. I have been down this path recently and I can assure you the amount of time I wasted it would have been easer and safer to just put a match to it and then ring the fire brigade rather than waiting for ether one of my staff or one of the other businesses to accidentally lite it up in the middle of summer like has happened for the last ten years.

Lastly there has been so much shifting of responsibility between departments over here in the last 10 or so years it is crazy. Politics and fire management just don't mix in my opinion.

This is just an over view of what has been going on.

The structure of fire fighting agencies in Western Australia has changed markedly since June 1997 when the Western Australian Government established a taskforce to look at ways of improving planning and coordination across Western Australia’s emergency services. Broadly, fire services fall under two arms, the Fire and Emergency Services Authority of Western Australia, and the Western Australian Department of Environment and Conservation, although a number of internal divisions exist under the FESA umbrella.
The Fire and Emergency Services Authority (FESA) of Western Australia was formally established as a statutory government authority on 1 January 1999, replacing both the Fire Brigades Board and the Bush Fires Board, bringing together the Fire and Rescue Service, and the Bush Fire Service, the State Emergency Service, Volunteer Marine Rescue Services, Emergency Management Services and Community Safety Services.
The Operations Services division within FESA incorporates two components – the Fire and Rescue Service of Western Australia (career and volunteer) and bush fire brigades (volunteer). Career firefighters within the Fire and Rescue Service operate from 20 fire stations in metropolitan Perth and five regional centres – Bunbury, Geraldton, Albany, Kalgoorlie and Mandurah – providing coverage for the most densely populated regions in Western Australia, although coverage excludes some outer Perth suburbs (such as Ellenbrook and Baldivis). The Volunteer Fire and Rescue Service (FRS) operates in many major country towns, and the volunteer Emergency Service Units (ESU) that are an amalgamation of the FRS, Bush Fire Service (BFS) and State Emergency Service (SES), undertake combined emergency management roles. Most of the outer metropolitan and country local government areas establish, subsidise and manage local bush fire brigades.

And then

"State Government had established the new Department of Fire and Emergency Services which is now operating as from November 1, 2012.

Mr Barnett said changing the Fire and Emergency Services Authority (FESA) into a Government department was one of the key recommendations from the special inquiry conducted by Mick Keelty AO into the Perth Hills bushfires."

So then we end up with

Department of Parks and Wildlife (DPAW)

The Office of Bushfire Risk Management

Department of Fire and Emergency Services

Bush Fire Brigades

Volunteer Fire and Rescue Service

And then we have Volunteer Fire Services (VFS) Brigade is generally established by combining the resources of a Bush Fire Service (BFS) Brigade and a Volunteer Fire and Rescue Service (VFRS) Brigade.

Confused about who is supposed to be doing what well I am and so were may of the different agencies for many years.

Hopefully the next time they all need to work together they actually do and there wont be another enquiry to find out why it went pear shaped yet again.

Cheers

Got

[etherealdrifter]

I am probably a bit older than some here and in some ways my values are looked upon as a granddad rant but I truly believe that the lacking of community spirit and thinking of others is the base of allot of issues that we face.

love

[GoOnThen]

I hovered my mouse over the like button for some time as I looked over the pics.............................................................................but I really don't know what to think . But then again it was posted by the one and only Fritz so what's not to like.

Cheers

Got

[Darklight]

Yeah I'd did mention backburning when I should have said hazard reduction burning. I hadn't slept and had been fighting a fire all night.

Two very different things though. Thanks for refining your terms

Part of the blame for this has to go the RFS, they just won't let anyone backburn and they won't do it themselves. I don't know if it's still there but up until last weekend they had a page on their website stating that they'd acknowledged everyones concerns and were looking into it or some such bullshit. Locals councils had wanted to backburn but the fucking RFS wouldn't give them permits.

*Which* part of the RFS. Was it the local captain or permit officer? The district manager? What were their grounds against it? Is this just heresay or do you have records?

I haven't ever seen a reason not to give out a permit that wasn't consistent with it being a total ban, not being allowed because of land use ( ie NPWS or heritage, individual brigades don't do those ) or because extra work needed to be done to make even a hazard reduction burn safe ( ie clearing fencelines or around houses ). It could be different for your region

I do know the rules around what we are allowed to assist with have changed, but I don't know what they are. They may be that our brigade isn't allowed to assist with hazard reduction burns as they leave us open to lawsuits on private property. There was talk of that a few years ago, I hope it died in the arse, and I'll check that out next training day.

For a while I think brigades got around it by having 'training days' on people's property, involving actual fire and a tanker and well, would you believe it, that hazard's gone- what a startling coincidence. But I'm not sure where the law is right now

The Mayors rants may have been emotive but he burnt his property (without permits) in the cooler months and his place got through unscathed while many around him burned.

You don't need a permit except during permit season. Permit season is announced well in advance except in emergencies. When they bring the date forward you usually get a week's notice

If you are planning a hazard reduction burn during non-permit season you need to notify all your neighbours. Next door, behind you, across the road or creek. You also need to notify your local ( usually council ) fire command centre

Here is the bog standard publication from the RFS website about what you need to do to undertake hazard reduction on your property as a private landowner, at any time of year

http://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/file_system/attachments/State08/Attachment_20120824_635CF0D2.pdf

This document is current as of now. You will need to check the site for future changes

I didn't suggest not burning it caused all the problems, I just stated that there was a known hazard and no effort was made to deal with it. The area had dead leaf litter 6 inches deep in many areas.

Then find out exactly why it wasn't dealt with, rather than blaming the RFS ( hint- that's like blaming The Government. And it looks like you are slagging ordinary volunteer members off ). For all you know it is another agency preventing the hazard reduction

It sounds like you have had a hard night helping out a mate and I'm glad you all saved the place and it's people. But I'm not 100% certain you are specific enough in your claims to have a good case right now

I am probably a bit older than some here and in some ways my values are looked upon as a granddad rant but I truly believe that the lacking of community spirit and thinking of others is the base of allot of issues that we face.

They only want the burns done if it doesn't effect them at all but they are the first to point the finger when things go wrong

Fark yeah. One minute it's save the koalas, the next minute we're all bastards for not burning it all down for the 1 in 100 year fire. Really, gentle public, you can't have both, not 100%

Lastly there has been so much shifting of responsibility between departments over here in the last 10 or so years it is crazy. Politics and fire management just don't mix in my opinion.

This is just an over view of what has been going on.

And then

"State Government had established the new Department of Fire and Emergency Services which is now operating as from November 1, 2012.

Mr Barnett said changing the Fire and Emergency Services Authority (FESA) into a Government department was one of the key recommendations from the special inquiry conducted by Mick Keelty AO into the Perth Hills bushfires."

So then we end up with

Department of Parks and Wildlife (DPAW)

The Office of Bushfire Risk Management

Department of Fire and Emergency Services

Bush Fire Brigades

Volunteer Fire and Rescue Service

And then we have Volunteer Fire Services (VFS) Brigade is generally established by combining the resources of a Bush Fire Service (BFS) Brigade and a Volunteer Fire and Rescue Service (VFRS) Brigade.

Confused about who is supposed to be doing what well I am and so were may of the different agencies for many years.

Hopefully the next time they all need to work together they actually do and there wont be another enquiry to find out why it went pear shaped yet again.

Hell yes. And if you are a polite brigade you will also check with your local Aboriginal Lands Council or similar, to make sure extra protection is afforded to anything of cultural significance.

[Sallubrious]

I didn't realise I needed defend myself like I was on trial, maybe I need a lawyer to correct my posts before I submit them.

Here's a link to the page I was talking about.

http://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/dsp_more_info.cfm?CON_ID=2669&CAT_ID=579

They seem to indicate that they are acting to reduce the hazards (or audit them) but we've seen it before and nothing ever seems to get done. The issue was considered serious enough for more than 300 people from a small town to get to the meeting they are talking about in that link. That town is on a peninsula with only one way in, so in the event of a fire people are trapped.

To put it into context this issue has been coming to a head for several years and it's been mostly one sided coming from the Mayor. As Terenna indicated he (the Mayor) certainly is a sensationalist attention grabber so I normally tune out whenever he opens his mouth but this issue has been the only thing I've ever agreed with him about. I've never seen such a load of dead dry fuel in that area & I've lived in the region on and off for over 20 years.

I really don't know all the intimate details except for the few details I manage to overhear when the news is on. I know there have been meetings with residents groups and the brass from the RFS where the residents have been left dissapointed. I blamed the RFS before but they're just the representatives to a bureaucratic system that's out of control.

The Mayor has made public statements about how he defiantly burnt his patch and was willing to cop any penalties for doing so. So from what you said it could be all bullshit I suppose - the permit issue that is. I think the main issue is that if you do a burn you need the support of the RFS so it doesn't get out of hand, maybe it comes down to finances or staffing issues or maybe even legal legal issues as you mentioned, I really don't know.

I really can't understand why you think I've got any issues with the workforce, I've never indicated anything of the sort. To me the RFS is just a label, what other way should I refer to them ?

Again sorry if I offended you DL it was never my intent.

@ Tarenna I just watched a professor from Sydney University on the ABC saying that with modern climatological factors there's nothing we can do but control fuel loads. I don't believe it's as clear cut as you imply. Don't think that I'm offended by your posts as I've read a lot on both sides of the argument and it's a very complex issue . I believe there are times when action needs to be taken as it should have been in this case.

[tarenna]

.

 

@ Tarenna I just watched a professor from Sydney University on the ABC saying that with modern climatological factors there's nothing we can do but control fuel loads. I don't believe it's as clear cut as you imply. Don't think that I'm offended by your posts as I've read a lot on both sides of the argument and it's a very complex issue . I believe there are times when action needs to be taken as it should have been in this case.

Thanks Sally,

Which Professor was it?

I am going to stick hard to my initial position because the evidence is clear - undertaking hazard reduction burns in land management zones (broad areas of bushland away from assets) makes very little difference to the risk to assets. Actions undertaken within and in close proximity to the asset to reduce fuels and physically protect the asset will significantly reduce the risk. There have been several major studies published in Australia and internationally in recent years that analyse and document these factors. This includes studies undertaken by the Centre for Environmental Risk Management of Bushfires (University of Wollongong) and the Australian Bushfire CRC - these are world leaders in the field...

An excerpt below from an article published today by the Professor Ross Bradstock - worth reading the entire article too:

We know through very recent research following the 2009 fires in Victoria that the area one kilometre around property is absolutely critical for defence. That’s where treating fuel to reduce fire and embers is particularly important. Houses need to be well set back from flammable bushland in order to survive fires in conditions similar to yesterday.

Unfortunately New South Wales and the greater Sydney Basin have been left with a legacy of development that continues to place property and infrastructure at risk. Although the development and planning regime has vastly improved in the past ten years, there’s still a huge stock of houses in very high risk areas. Risk management planning tries to account for that.

http://theconversation.com/sydney-fires-caused-by-people-and-nature-19327

I reiterate that people need to take responsibility for their own lives and assets. There is good advice from agencies and potentially even material support available for undertaking the right actions to reduce the risk of wildfires to lives and property.

[Sallubrious]

Sorry Tarenna I didn't catch his name, I'm not even sure which ABC it was. I had two kids trying to coerce me into giving them ice creams and I was half asleep when I saw it.

As you and Darklight have both said those measures are normally the best way to go, but up there it's a bit different. The trees grow that close that you just can't mow it. If you tried with a whipper snipper it would be never ending battle and it would leave a layer of litter on top of all the dead dry leaves. The area has a mostly sandy soil that dries very fast and litter just doesn't break down like it would in a lot places. So people like to burn off for convenience more than anything.

My Grandfather would burn the outer extremities of his property to "get rid of all the crap" every 2-3 years and implemented the sort of practices you've mentioned. His place got scorched a few times while his neighbours that didn't burn lost everything at least three times I'm aware of.

Councils are part of the problem too, they won't let anyone clear a suitable area around their house and it's almost impossible to get permission to cut down large older trees.

I've got to agree with you too, on large areas hazard reduction most likely won't make much difference at all, up there it I think it was a bit different and it could have slowed the fires down enough to make difference.

Anyway, I can see you're not trying to stir things up and I'm not trying to counter you with anectdotes and personal bias, this shit needs some serious discussion and action or it's going to keep happening.

Edit: I mentioned in an earlier post that the RFS wouldn't let my friends establish a buffer zone around the back of their house, now I've thought about it that was probably more of a council issue

Edited October 18, 2013 by Sally

[tarenna]

Thanks Sally,

As DL and the Professor Bradstock article have pointed out - in Australia it is inevitable that bush burns (and there is lots of evidence that this has been happening for over 70 million years). The physical position and preparedness of people and their assets are the real issue.

[Sallubrious]

It's about to get real down in the mountains today. They're using phrases like mega fire which sounds sensationalist but that's coming from people very experienced with massive fires. With the topography down there it's going to make my local fires on flat land seem almost tame.

I know of at least one Corroboree member down that way. My thoughts are with you mate stay safe.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Sally

[altenate]

Yeah, interesting days ahead here! It's getting eerie.lets hope the back burn works! All ok at the moment. It's kinda strange trying to work out what you can fit in the car that can't be replaced or covered by insurance!

Sounds a bit dramatic but getting prepared.

They evac ed the road on the ridge next to us.

Not sure who else is in the bluies but best of luck!!!

In an aside note just wondering if any one local to the springwood/ Faulconbridge areawants to caretake a few plants& rare ish seedlings till this is over???? That might be over drama rising but thinking of options.

[tarenna]

Good luck - act wisely and safely all in the blueys..

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Good luck alt! Hope the wife and girls are handling it pal! Peace brohan

[Snowfella]

In an aside note just wondering if any one local to the springwood/ Faulconbridge areawants to caretake a few plants& rare ish seedlings till this is over???? That might be over drama rising but thinking of options.

Got a black thumb when it comes to caring for tender plants so no guarantees they stay alive in my care but I've got space in the yard/under awning/in the garage if you need it. I'm in St Clair so well outside of the danger area but still pretty local, from memory you have even been to my place to pick up an aloe around this time last year.

[Darklight]

That might be over drama rising but thinking of options.

Nothing over dramatic about having a plan, it's a great idea

Have everything set in your head, have an oh-shit bag ready to go and a safe place to put plants and pets out of danger, fireproof what you can

When shit goes crazy in fires it goes crazy *fast* and in some odd directions. Fires are 95% boredom and 5% fear and confusion. It's the fear and confusion you want to be ready for and hope you don't need to use it. But have it ready