going rate for DMT?

[faustus]

say for one moment i was intending to write a novel about a young man who travelled up to nimbin in search of the spirit molecule, would it be correct to assume that finding it would be as easy as:

a) going to the local ganja traders and asking for directions?

seeking out the Pagan Love Cult, whom he has been told can also help?

and say he were to get a hold of some, how much would it cost???

can someone help me out here? this is one story that must be written!

[Torsten]

Originally posted by twix elbert:

going to the local ganja traders and asking for directions?

keeping in mind that you should point out that you don't actually want any cos it is illegal, but that you are doing research for a book......

maybe not asking straight out, but I am sure if you hang around there long enough you will find someone who will know more. Remember that most ganja dealers in Nimbin are junkies and travellers looking to make a quick buck.

Doofs are also a good place to make contact.

and say he were to get a hold of some, how much would it cost??

A year or two ago it was about $200/g, but I am sure it has dropped somewhat since then. Wouldn't expect it much under 150 though.

[eccles]

but remember - the junkies and travellers out to make a quick buck are not nearly as bad as the proprietor of a cerain shop up there, that I won't name.

To change the subject completely, who knew that Happy High Herbs in sydney sells scops as san pedro? (and will then argue with you that it IS a pachanoi... they don't know shit) and that they charge $80 for a 6-8 inch specimen? and then when you ask them why they are trying to rip people off like that (people who may not know what these things SHOULD cost) they just shrug and give an embarrased grin and say 'because people pay it'...

BOYCOTT HAPPY HIGH HERBS.

(and if Arizona Cactus Nursery hadn't just closed down I'd say the same about them)

[Andrew]

Dont waste your money on their book

either,its full of badly written shit,

most of which you will find in the old

legal highs by Gottleib(also full of bad

advice)

[Guest reville]

re: HHH and $80 cacti

While i don't recommend boycotting them i would suggest that if you are a litle more clued up on these things than the unwashed masses then you probably have the intelligence to look that one layer deeper and see that Cacti and all the other stuff at HHH you can find through other channels at much cheaper rates, all it takes is some research

And with research hopefully you'll learn even more and want to grow all these species, which suits me fine. as i think the only way we'll beat this bullshit scheduling nightmare is to overgrow them - what can they do ? ban gardening?

With regard to pach vs scop. Ive heard that scop are just as stronger anyway, maybe even stronger in some cases.

However if you are new to it all, HHH is still a valuable resource, its central and its all there - if you've got the cash - and considering the brand name crap ive seen so many people buy at hidyus prices a length of pedro at $80 is probably the least of their worries. There are some gross innacuracies in the book but i believe they are editing it with some expert help and hopefully they'll catch all the errors, and make some additions

What no Sceletium? Withania? Its far from comprehensive

Same regarding Medicine garden - i can't tell you how happy i was when i *initially* found them - i gladly paid $30 a cutting and would have paid even more, i paid $80 for a small loph. I had been searching for ages for these but i obviously wasnt looking in the right place and then i discovered the net. I had tried getting seed from O/S but wasn't it my luck that i chose L.E.R as the first and last attempt at importing seed

Now ive discovered ICON and can ask advice here its no longer a problem.

Like i said sometimes people have a curiosity so strong that they'll pay anything, and id rather they begin to learn than not have access at all.

Im sure pedro prices will come down when the population increases, if all you mescaleros will just stop eating it all! Ive built up a fair amount of biomass and im loathe to sell (except excess pups) or eat it - you do get attached to your cactus

[This message has been edited by reville (edited 10 December 2002).]

[Guest Mesqualero]

I think it would be a real shame to boycott HHH, twix elbert

[Gwydion]

Having at some point worked at HHH in sydney, I might peep in here, from Puno. (Did I say I might be posting LESS!?!?!?!)

First, I assume that the specimen of san pedro was a rooted plant, as I have never been in a position of selling a cut length for that much (usually $50, which is still steep, for a piece of at least 12 inches).

Secondly, I agree that it is way too much too realistically pay for such a plant. The fact is that the plants are sourced from another person who, for example, might want $40 for it. The shop then goes about making a ´profit´. Such is business (which, as a devout socialist, I averr rather strongly).

Thirdly, for those with the gumption to ask, I (at least- I can´t speak for whoever else has worked there) ALWAYS suggested alternatives, such as Arizona (which was cheaper), Earthpod, and these forums.

Fourthly, on the matter of what constitutes ´san pedro´, it is rather indisputable that scops are regarded as such (as are bridgs, pachs, and peruvs). In fact, it´s rather more popular than the others with certain curanderos due to the lack of spines, and a tendency to form less ribs. However, not everyone is a specialist on san pedro, so some guy selling it in a shop full of bewildering (and, yes, somewhat overpriced) products may not know of any other type than pachs.

Sorry, this hasn´t been a personal attack, just the view from my end.

I disagree with Rev, however, on the consumption of it. Firstly, no-one in oz is eating it, as it´s illegal (and if they are they should stop right now, if not for themselves then for the plants).

Secondly, as he just said, he, and others, have plenty of the stuff, but they´re sitting on it like a bunch of dragons (or lizard kings). ;-)

So don´t necessarily boycott HHH, just use yr noggin.

[This message has been edited by Gwydion (edited 10 December 2002).]

[eccles]

well after all these intelligent, thoughtful and moderate posts I withdraw my encouragement to boycott HHH - as long as people take these posts on board

Yep, I realise that those cacti can all be considered pedro... that's not a prob (hehe san pedro=saint peter is, after all, the guy that 'guards' the gates of heaven - so the name is apt).

and yes it was a potted plant - I doubt you'd see cuttings sold in a place like that in sydney.

It just upsets me because I don't believe in selling cacti. I can't even bring myself to eat them. as reville (and just about everyone I have ever spoken to who grows them) said - you grow far too attatched to them.

It doesn't even NEED to be illegal to grow them - since most people who do find that eating them is just out of the question. (most of these poeple I assume though have injested tem at some point or another). Perhaps it is their way of exerting their control over us to ensure evolutionary survivial

But even when you don't eat them, I am sure they protect you to some extent. they ARE powerful plants. And I guess that is a reason I don't believe in selling them - and CERTAINLY don't believe in making a profit from them... they are power. not something to be bought or sold. they must be sought out. And as such it may not matter to the person who finds them what they pay.

But yeah, I am rambling now - don't boycott them - but just let them know you do not agree with what they are doing. they are not that unlike us... they will probably be sensitive to what you say.

and yeah man - read mesqalero's post until you get what he is saying, dig?

[Guest Mesqualero]

I like the incense there eccles

[Torsten]

re San Pedro - who gives a toss whether scops are sold as pachanoi? not even the taxonimists can agree on whether these two should be regarded as separate species, so expecting such from HHH is unreasonable. I've been saying for years that the individual strain is MUCH more important in determining activity than which species it beongs to (in the pachanoid range).

re HHH - face it, most of us entered this community via places like LER, Medicine Garden, HHH or other front-line businesses. Most of these do not operate on scientific principles, but that doesn't detract from their importance. if HHH was raking in the $$$ the way Medicine Garden does, then sure boycott them, but if you know anything about Ray and Liz, then that is that they are dedicated to the cause (whether you agree with their methods or not) and that they are not greedy. They have the skill to be rich people but instead choose to stay loyal and to reinvest into this community.

re the HHH book - yeah, I agree this didn't turn out all that good. A couple of people have been editing it and I am sure the new edition will be much better.

re selling cacti - aren't you being a 'tad' hypocritical here eccles??

anyway, I bought three Trichs (unknown species) at a wholesale nursery last week and paid $60 for each 80cm tall plant. Bottomline is that HHH has a standard mark up margin (reasonable for the type of business they operate). So the wholesale suppliers are just as much to blame for the ridiculous prices as HHH.

I think HH fills a niche. if you don't need them anymore cos you've moved on then that is fine. But don't deprive those who are just starting out (and those who haven't even found ethnobotany yet) from the opportunity to sample and experiment. Without HHH, MG and SAB most of this community would still be getting ripped off by LER, customs, and ebay.

[eccles]

Torsten: I don't think I am being hypocritical at all... I have never sold a cactus in my life - only given them away as rooted cuttings...

However I realise that if *no-one* sold them then things would sort of grind to a halt. We need retailers (like yourself, adrian, gomaos and mark&allan) to keep things going. However I would prefer to see people buy these things from people like gomaos - than give the profits to someone who has the roof of his house shaped like a psilocybe mushroom...

But I do agree - they are no medicine garden at least

[eccles]

oh! and another thing - if they ARE paying like $40 per cactus (which they are because I do know their source) - WHY are they? that's just ridiculous!

Ray has piles of the stuff up in his nimbin shop... for $40 a foot.. They obviously have a much better source up there - they probably grow it somewhere themselves I'd imagine (and if they don't then that's just silly)... why can't they root some cuttings up there and send them down to sydney? It just beggars beleif. maybe the sydney store is not run that well...

Also I noticed they had Arizona's phone number on their wall... which means that they *should* be able to get say a pachanoi for around $25 for a foot - rooted plant (wich I still think is over priced - esp since they they *undermeasure* a foot, and then add on some, and then calculate it and then add some onto THAT... they are the dodgiest people ever and I am glad that John sold the land so they had to close down... I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't a motivating factor)... but... yeah... I agree that they are probably getting them for like $40 and then whacking on 100%, but WHY are they paying that much???

(why do I end up ranting about things when I make posts immediately after I get up in the morning?)

[gomaos]

Thanks for recommending me there, Eccles, I sure can do with that....

However I've met Ray and Liz on some occasions and found them to be very good and decent people, as Torsten said, they know how to rake in the dollars but haven't turned into blunt capitalists and still support "the special community (us?)" and our ideology...

A friend of mine did an oil change last weekend on his car and spent $400 on oil and petrol filters when he could have bought cheaper one for a fraction of the price...

so if someone spends $80 on a pedro...way better value I'd say...

And I have yet to meet the person who, for example, loves their cannabis plants so much he won't pull them up and smoke them...

(I know the example limps because cannabis are annuals and cacti perrenials...but think abut it)

I just met Wastl the gnome...

he said he's gonna go out and cut some pedro

for consumption later in the week...latest recipe:

Cut out spines and core, throw core out, chop all the rest into little pieces, as little as possible, dry in shade (takes a few days in hot weather), mix with yoghurt, eat...only if you're a gnome, or where this is legal....

[eccles]

heheh cactus raitha hey

consume with a HOT curry...

[Gwydion]

Curry and cactus? Ych! That stuff makes my stomach unstable enough as it is!

eccles wrote: "I doubt you'd see cuttings sold in a place like that in sydney."

Actually, I´d keep your eyes peeled (and re-read my other post). There was a pile of about 30 foot-lengths there a few months ago. (Cheaper to grow yr own from cuttings. :-))

And that´s a curious thought about the cactus- breeding pet humans and putting them out to stud. I like it.

I think we´re all reasonably in agreement that HHH is doing a good job. It may appear to expensive to us, but, then, we´re already on the inside. We know where to find good deals and pass on the info to our friends.

Rather than ripping into HHH (I enjoy the incense there too;->), we ought to be aware that it is often the first point of exposure for a lot of people. Consequently, we ought to be working with HHH to help these people open the doors upon what is meant, after all, to be a community.

As has been said already, Ray and Liz are full of enthusiasm for ´the cause´ (maybe too much), and HHH tries to keep prices down whenever it can, especially on expensive items. And believe me, when you´re working there on nothing but commission, that´s a hard bullet to bite.

I personally regard $80 (or even $40) as too much for some of the pedros sold there, but then I have a large, broad range now. If I came across, for example, a four-ribbed peruv that was only six inches high, however, my bank balance would be busking for the next month. Stupid, but true.

I guess our values are just that, values. Eccles, for example, would never sell a cactus (I find that giving them away is very satifying, however), but might have no qualms with a yage, or mimosa, or whatever.

Oh, and Gomaos. You just met that person. Or, would have, if I still felt the risk was worth running. I just don´t like the effect.

[Torsten]

Funny thing is that I actually met Ray over a rather large piece of San Pedro. I was just getting interested in cacti and had found out that the cactus shop in Bondi was selling them by the foot. I had just been to the Bondi Markets and met Ray for the first time. had a very short chat and then went to seek out the cactus. Bought a few lengths of it and rocked up at Ray's stall with a 1.2m chunk of almost 20cm diameter. Fucking heavy! Gave it to Ray as an introduction to the cactus world, had another one of his ephedra drinks (they used to be soooo good after a heavy weekend), and then bounced around the markets for the rest of the day.

He still has to laugh about this tall stranger handing him a monster of a cactus and then pissing off again

[Torsten]

ah yeah, the moral of that story was that I paid $160 just for Ray's piece. So to me it is all relative....

[toby]

i saw that pile of cuttings in there, they didn't even look like trichocereus let alone

worrying about species, but recently i did see a pretty nice foot tall pach there for $80, which i wouldn't like to pay, but in a time and place $80 is dinner a movie and if youre lucky a couple of drinks it's not exactly outrageous either, especially if you factor the time you would spend producing something like that yourself

[Torsten]

also consider that if you go to the cactus shop just across and down the road from HHH in sydney, you will find lots of potted cacti at prices much higher than HHH and those species aren't even as 'nutritious'

[Darklight]

see below. F*ck'n cookies

[This message has been edited by Darklight (edited 13 December 2002).]

[Guest reville]

Originally posted by Gwydion:

Secondly, as he just said, he, and others, have plenty of the stuff, but they´re sitting on it like a bunch of dragons (or lizard kings). ;-)

[This message has been edited by Gwydion (edited 10 December 2002).]

He he.

yeah im siting on them - well sort of. Most people with the interest i know in perth now have pedros too.They grow sooo well too in the ground. Prices in perth have been rising quite fast as interst grows - i gought some massive cacti for $17.50 3 years ago, now small ones sell for $25 from nurseries with cluey managers and even more from those who dont know what theyve got - funny isnt it.

[Guest reville]

eccles i think you are missing the point when it comes to buying and seling and business in general.

whether it be the retail side or the the nursery side - people need money to live

The landlord, taxman, council, insurance company all want their pound of flesh before you even open up shop.

Then you have to pay all the utilities, Wages, superannuation on the wages, delivery costs, cleaning and display costs, tradesmen to fix stuff, GST for the govt. Everyone gets their bit and regardless of whether the venture will actually generate an income for the owner.

With the cactus the chain goes way back.

The seedgrower needs an income, AQIS takes their bit in inspection fees, then the nurseryman has to use valuable time space and skils to grow a specialty crop, and you know how slow they are at first.They only get pumping when they have their feet in the ground and at least 60cm under their belt.

One length of Pedro represents alot of workhours and expense to get it to that stage.All for a non-essential product - the people who buy are going to be young and working, possibly living at home still or supported in some way and not have a family to support - so they have disposable income for entertainment/hobbies.

and the price fits in with other items of enjoyment usage like games, alcohol, etc. and has the unique advantage of self replication if you dont crop it straight away.

So where exactly is the problem?

[Gwydion]

turps, I can assure you that those peices were san pedro, probably pachanoi (can never be too sure these days).

Torsten, love the story. I wonder why Ray´s never told me that one. Just one thing- you´re bloody crazy. Du spinnst! ;-)

OH, and I don´t think that cactus shop is there anymore. I don´t travel to that end of King Street very much, except for the Fijian Markets, but the last time I passed it, the shop was all packed up.

[Auxin]

rev, do you know much about dos? You could write a little batch file that would move one cookie and leave the other in place and then switch them when you click on a icon. Before you get online just click the thing and the darklight cookie would be moved out and the reville cookie moved in. Just a thought.

[Guest reville]

DOS? it that a new research chemical?

No i know jack about computers. I own one but it seems like im the only one who doesnt know how they operate. I mean i can operate one but for the whole 3 years at uni i didnt have one and all i could use was the uni comps, which you can't alter any settings on so i ignored learnng about it and concenetrated on web content rather than structure and learning how to use appliactions ill probably never use again - like Matlab n stuff. Now ive got a comp i need t learn a few things, picking up some now, so i can rearrange and manage mine when i get it back. till then im meant to sign posts

R