anxiety

[opiumfreak]

I have a real bad anxiety probably anxiety syndrome, I get panic attacks at night and anxiety when I going to bed Id like to know if there are any plants that can help? maybe chamomille and hops before goin to bed? passionflower is out of question because of medication, maybe kave? what do you think?

[planthelper]

i would not go this road to often (herbal support against anxiety).

learn to understand your anxiety, it gives you strengh aswell.

full blown panic attacks, you hopefully don't suffer?

[mr b.caapi]

Exercise mate, Start jogging or going for brisk walks.

[LikeAshesWeFade]

Both learning to understand your anxiety and exercise are definitely good! Try to find the triggers and pin point what is causing your anxiety/panic attacks. For me it was always smoking too much ganja in a social situation, so I avoided it by not smoking while I'm out at a party etc. If you are just having straight out panic attacks for no reason, then definitely go see a naturopath if you want something natural, or obviously a doctor if you would prefer direct anxiety meds.

I've been put on serotonin-noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors and they work great for my anxiety, partially due to the noradrenaline being released I'm assuming. The best natural alternative I've had for anxiety would most definitely be St. Johns Wort.. The hyperforin contained in St. Johns Wort works wonders for depression related anxiety, or general anxiety. If your anxiety is severe then I would definitely recommend seeing a doctor as most natural remedies are mainly for mild anxiety/depression.

Edited July 11, 2012 by LikeAshesWeFade

[indigo264nm]

Man I wish there was a herbal aid I could recommend but I have yet to encounter one that relieves my frequent panic attacks. If there is anything I could suggest it would be definitely be kava.

Oh and if you smoke green, then I recommend you stop.

[∂an]

healthy living (i.e. exercise, good food, minimal intoxication) definitely helps, but as planthelper said the real solution is to understand your anxiety and take measures to change your life to remove the source of it. your body is saying there is something not right with the way things are, and you gotta listen.

[ballzac]

If you drink coffee, give it up or reduce intake. Any herbal medication is probably a placebo, but this is the best sort of symptom to be treated with a placebo, so go ahead and choose one if you want. Remember that placebos in pill form usually work better than herbs, and work even better if one end is red and the other white. If you can find any empty capsules with red and white ends, take them as your treatment.

LAWF is right about finding the triggers. Keeping a diary may help with this. If you write down your thoughts and the events throughout your day, as well as when you experience the attacks, you may be able to pinpoint the triggers.

[dionysus]

you mention passionflower being out of the question due to medication you are already on, is this an SSRI? if so, there may be a problem with the dosage you have been perscribed or the time of day you dose compaired to the time of night you sleep, i have a friend who for a while was getting terrible panic attacks at night, spoke to his doctor and his doctor split his dosing to morning and evening so that he would not withdraw from whichever SSRI he was taking right before he went to sleep.

as hard as it may be, take the suggestions to cut down on cannabis if you do smoke and coffee seriously, because they are known to be huge contributors to anxious symptoms

Edited July 11, 2012 by dionysus

[indigo264nm]

I definitely agree with people saying saying you need to find your triggers. Sometimes it's not quite as black and white as this, especially if the triggers for your panic attacks are tied in with other psychiatric conditions which are harder to treat, but even then it gives you a basis for seeking further treatment.

Maybe consider a psychologist specialising in 'evidence based psychology', and start Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (better known as CBT).

There have been studies indicating Kava as a potential treatment for anxiety so consider trying this before employing benzodiazepines, and if you do go down the benzo road then tread carefully as it's a "band-aid for a bullet wound" treatment and many people find it a damn hard band-aid to take off.

[Seldom]

Any herbal medication is probably a placebo, but this is the best sort of symptom to be treated with a placebo, so go ahead and choose one if you want. Remember that placebos in pill form usually work better than herbs, and work even better if one end is red and the other white. If you can find any empty capsules with red and white ends, take them as your treatment.

 

yeah that's not correct, and actually a pretty irresponsible thing to recommend. placebos require at least single blind administration. just buying empty pills and taking them has nothing to do with the placebo phenomenon.

this is the best sort of symptom to be treated with a placebo

nothing gets 'treated' with a placebo, the ethics of doing that to someone is horrendous, esp. for sufferers of depression/anxiety.

[ballzac]

yeah that's not correct, and actually a pretty irresponsible thing to recommend... the ethics of doing that to someone is horrendous, esp. for sufferers of depression/anxiety.

 

I can see how it could be irresponsible to recommend someone takes a drug, when only the person making the recommendation knows it's a placebo. But to say point blank that the drug is a placebo and recommend it leaves the ball entirely in the other person's court.

placebos require at least single blind administration. just buying empty pills and taking them has nothing to do with the placebo phenomenon...

nothing gets 'treated' with a placebo

 

Placebos without Deception: A Randomized Controlled Trial in Irritable Bowel Syndrome

Abstract: Background: Placebo treatment can significantly influence subjective symptoms. However, it is widely believed that response to placebo requires concealment or deception. We tested whether open-label placebo (non-deceptive and non-concealed administration) is superior to a no-treatment control with matched patient-provider interactions in the treatment of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS).

Methods: Two-group, randomized, controlled three week trial (August 2009-April 2010) conducted at a single academic center, involving 80 primarily female (70%) patients, mean age 47 +/- 18 with IBS diagnosed by Rome III criteria and with a score >= 150 on the IBS Symptom Severity Scale (IBS-SSS). Patients were randomized to either open-label placebo pills presented as "placebo pills made of an inert substance, like sugar pills, that have been shown in clinical studies to produce significant improvement in IBS symptoms through mind-body self-healing processes" or no-treatment controls with the same quality of interaction with providers. The primary outcome was IBS Global Improvement Scale (IBS-GIS). Secondary measures were IBS Symptom Severity Scale (IBS-SSS), IBS Adequate Relief (IBS-AR) and IBS Quality of Life (IBS-QoL).

Findings: Open-label placebo produced significantly higher mean (+/- SD) global improvement scores (IBS-GIS) at both 11-day midpoint (5.2 +/- 1.0 vs. 4.0 +/- 1.1, p<.001 and at endpoint vs. p=".002)." significant results were also observed both time points for reduced symptom severity adequate relief a trend favoring open-label placebo was quality of life the .08>

Conclusion: Placebos administered without deception may be an effective treatment for IBS. Further research is warranted in IBS, and perhaps other conditions, to elucidate whether physicians can benefit patients using placebos consistent with informed consent.

Okay, so I can't guarantee that this can be generalised to other disorders, and even the authors do not draw any solid conclusions from this work. But considering that a placebo is not going to do any harm, it may be worth a try. Anxiety disorders have a large psychosomatic component, so it's not a huge stretch to think that they will respond better to placebo than disorder that are mostly based in physiology.

[ballzac]

Also, herbs and methods whose efficacy is based mostly (or solely) on the placebo effect are often recommended here, without acknowledgement of that fact. I think being open about the fact that most herbal treatments for anxiety are probably placebos is an improvement on that. If OF wants to give some herbs a try, and they help for his anxiety, it doesn't matter whether it is a placebo or not, as long as there are no unwanted side-effects.

The comment about taking a pill was a little tongue-in-cheek, though the comments I made about pills being better than herbs, and red and white capsules being better than pills is actually true. In fact, the best placebo seems to be an intravenous saline injection, but I thought that might be a little...irresponsible, to suggest unnecessary intravenous injections.

[Seldom]

but again, the point of placebos is that they allow a control group to be compared with an experimental group. placebos are never used to treat illnesses . the only time i've heard of that happening is in times wartime scarcity.

[chnt]

many things can help with anxiety related problems...

some of these things include, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, qigong and anything of that nature... and also any exercise with a focus on stretching (warm up/warm down or otherwise...). massage and self massage, isolation tank, experiences within non-ordinary states of consciousness.

also talking to others, close friends, family, counselor, etc...

it is important to become aware of yourself and why you may be experiencing anxiety, though in many cases this is the last thing people want to do, it can also be the hardest thing to do... but it is still extremely important, just try to keep this in mind, and try to take things slow.

Edited July 11, 2012 by chnt

[ballzac]

but again, the point of placebos is that they allow a control group to be compared with an experimental group. placebos are never used to treat illnesses . the only time i've heard of that happening is in times wartime scarcity.

 

This follows from the presumed requirement of deception. It's unethical give a patient a placebo and tell them it's a treatment that's proven to be better than placebo. But you can asks a patient if they want to be part of a trial and give them a pill if they consent, tell them it may or may not be a placebo. But the findings of of the paper I cited suggest that it may not need to be that way: that you can actually tell the patient explicitly that they are receiving a placebo and it still improves their condition compared to those who take no placebo. The authors actually used the word "treatment" to describe the potential use of non-deceptive placebos. This is far from conclusive proof that non-deceptive placebos will work against anxiety, but as long as the placebo is harmless, there's no problem in taking it. I agree with chnt that, in particular, meditation may be of help. This is a similar principle to the placebo effect in that it is mind over body.

[Sallubrious]

but again, the point of placebos is that they allow a control group to be compared with an experimental group. placebos are never used to treat illnesses . the only time i've heard of that happening is in times wartime scarcity.

 

While that statement is true for the most part there are exceptions.

Like when someone has a problem and can't afford the best treatment and is forced on to waiting a list. A compassionate doctor may do something that falls under the heading of a placebo to alleviate the patients anguish.

When the doctor is incompetent or arrogantly makes the diagnosis that it must be in their head & the doctor gives the patient a treatment or prescription to make them think they've been treated.

Or when a patient expects anti-biotics for a viral infection, most doctors will just write the script.

I had torn cartilage and a ruptured ligament in my shoulder. Where I live you wait up to ten years for treatment in the public system for that sort of thing. I went to my quack and asked for a cortisone shot so I could get back to work (she'd only ever seen the first Xray which showed nothing) She obliged by giving me a subcutaneous saline injection to try to make me go away satisfied.

She must have mistaken me for the "it's all in his head type" and gave me a placebo treatment.

[coin]

don't want to sound like an ass...but someone asked for advice regarding anxiety, and some people decide to argue about the definition/ethics of placebo?

it's relevant to this forum, but not this thread - so maybe start a new thread for that discussion? i'd definitely be interested in it.

[Sallubrious]

don't want to sound like an ass...but someone asked for advice regarding anxiety, and some people decide to argue about the definition/ethics of placebo?

it's relevant to this forum, but not this thread - so maybe start a new thread for that discussion? i'd definitely be interested in it.

 

Good point, I got a bit carried away there.

Does the anxiety have any focus ?

That is, is it related to a real situation in your life or is a more of a random feeling of panic with no observable trigger ?

[tedzr]

Probably attempt to confront and understand the issue as much as possible and then make positive changes in your life. When I had anxiety and panic attacks before sleep (like I thought my heart would stop beating and i'd freak the fuck out), it wasn't that it was a physical problem with my heart, it was other unrelated shit. I sort of faced it by just letting go and riding it out a few times saying if I die, I die (damn scary, but of course I was fine) and made some changes in my life such as becoming less lazy and getting into a relationship. It's taken a couple of years but I rarely get these problems anymore. I saw a psychologist early on and tried an SSRI which both helped a great deal when I was depressed and having panic attacks frequently day and night. You may or may not know why this is occurring to you, but you've probably got some idea. Certainly speaking to a professional if you are able to won't hurt.

[planthelper]

you mention passionflower being out of the question due to medication you are already on, is this an SSRI? if so, there may be a problem with the dosage you have been perscribed or the time of day you dose compaired to the time of night you sleep, i have a friend who for a while was getting terrible panic attacks at night, spoke to his doctor and his doctor split his dosing to morning and evening so that he would not withdraw from whichever SSRI he was taking right before he went to sleep.

as hard as it may be, take the suggestions to cut down on cannabis if you do smoke and coffee seriously, because they are known to be huge contributors to anxious symptoms

 

yes i heard this one aswell, some people experience panic after taking ssri's.

edit:

a panic (anxiety) attack, can vary in degree, and for some sufferers, it can reach the form of, being the most scariest thing happening to them in there life.

breathing control is very important (avoiding hyperventilation), i would go to the doctor, many doctors, just prescribe valium, which i think is a good drug if, you use it, only once in a while. often panic attacks are percieved as a life threatening thing, say for example, "believing you have a heart attack", but just one diazepam, and your fears are likly to subside.

but if you use diazepam all the time, just not taking it, could trigger a panic attack, hehehe.

i think alcohol is a very good anxiolytic, hehehe!

Edited July 12, 2012 by planthelper

[Seldom]

This follows from the presumed requirement of deception. It's unethical give a patient a placebo and tell them it's a treatment that's proven to be better than placebo. But you can asks a patient if they want to be part of a trial and give them a pill if they consent, tell them it may or may not be a placebo. But the findings of of the paper I cited suggest that it may not need to be that way: that you can actually tell the patient explicitly that they are receiving a placebo and it still improves their condition compared to those who take no placebo. The authors actually used the word "treatment" to describe the potential use of non-deceptive placebos. This is far from conclusive proof that non-deceptive placebos will work against anxiety, but as long as the placebo is harmless, there's no problem in taking it. I agree with chnt that, in particular, meditation may be of help. This is a similar principle to the placebo effect in that it is mind over body.

 

deception is central to the placebo effect .. the study you cited above differs from normal trials in that they were told the treatment was ineffective. as interesting as that is in light of its results, all that study was measuring is the effect of taking a medication which is known to be ineffective. that's different to a placebo. historically deception has always been an essential feature of the placebo effect, without it it's just the power of a person convincing themselves of something

Edited July 12, 2012 by bulls on parade

[Zen Peddler]

Some people find that gaba enhancing medications help but the issue of tolerance is a problem.

[Opticaldelusion]

I agree with most of the advice given here. However, for a lot of anxiety sufferers (if we are talking about panic attacks) trying to figure out the trigger of an attack can actually cause more attacks. Sometimes there is no trigger and the stress behind trying to pinpoint one can have an ill-effect. Interestingly, some people report their first instance or instances of a panic attack(s) to have occurred on a freeway/highway, a stitation where there things are not out of the ordinary in regard to every day life, however the situation is fast/rushed and no exit available immediately. This can be used as a metaphor for any situation I guess, where you may naturally feel no immediate exit or easy way out.

Ride the anxiety and see it through. Some people may feel for their life or feel like they are having heart problems but this will reside, even if it has a ripple effect for hours after the attack. And importantly seek some from of professional help. Don't be afraid to speak to the people whom have a professional understanding as well as a holistic one.

[chnt]

a great tool you may want to use is audio guided meditation, looks for free guided meditations online, whether on youtube, owners website or otherwise...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh-klfBJlHc

http://www.the-guided-meditation-site.com/

http://download.meditation.org.au/guidedmeditations.asp

[∂an]

Interestingly, some people report their first instance or instances of a panic attack(s) to have occurred on a freeway/highway, a stitation where there things are not out of the ordinary in regard to every day life, however the situation is fast/rushed and no exit available immediately. This can be used as a metaphor for any situation I guess, where you may naturally feel no immediate exit or easy way out.

 

The monotonous rush from home to work with no time for anything else may very well be the cause of the anxiety in such cases. Somewhere deep inside us, we realise the insanity of this existence and the body/mind/soul cries out in protest via anxiety attacks. I think the role of anxiety is to force us to examine our lives and make positive changes. Suppressing anxiety via medication is a recipe for disaster down the road.