gomaos Posted May 9, 2003 Hi, I just HAD to post this: A simple theory, like Einsteins "E=MC2": 1. If God existed, how could It/she/he allow all the pain and suffering in the world. If there was a kind, gentle, loving, helping god, it wouldn't let a single baby starve and die. 2. If there is a god that just idly stands by, for example just like Auxin or Fractalhead when they watch chemicals processes, and for example records and studies every single emotion, every pain, every pleasure, everything what's going on in the world but doesn't interfere so as "not to disturb" anything, sure this would be a heartless, soul-less and feeling-less monster that is on a very negative trip and doesn't deserve the name "God". You may call it "Dog"(Which would be an insult to the animal species)or Ogd orDgo or whatever, but not God. Beings like this need to be exterminated just like cruel dictators, but not worshipped. Hence this is proove that god doesn't exist. (BTW this isn't against chemists. But Humans aren't chemicals... or are they?) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon Posted May 9, 2003 Gomoas you make the mistake of analysing God by human standards if God exists surely it is uncomphrehensible to our human minds and any attempt define or analyze God is sure to fail. I personally don't believe in God but I do believe there is purpose in Life and when I review my life it is the things which were unpleasant at the time which have had the most impact on me and made me into a better person. WIthout experiencing anything bad how can you empathize with anothers suffering and then seek to help alleviate anothers suffering [ 09. May 2003, 16:27: Message edited by: Ramon ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auxin Posted May 9, 2003 You will never devise a proof against the existance of god that will convince the christians. Most of them say 'he made it so there is no solid proof in order to test our faith'. I have no god (I'm buddhist for Christs Avalokitesvaras sake!) and I dont beleive in the existance of any god- if some glowing entity told me it was god I'd just think its a alien with a superiority complex. But some folks are the opposite, they beleive in some sort of god and there is nothing you can say to change that, nor should you try. If someone expresses interest in your religion inform them about anything they want to know- but dont force it on them. There are few things that bug me more than when someone tells me their imaginary friend will make me burn in a lake of fire and sulfur to the end of time unless I convert. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mescalito Posted May 10, 2003 What if "GOD" was a mortal soul evolved from some cosmic goo,performed some genetic experiments-and is now DEAD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skulking Lurker Posted May 10, 2003 I've got some good news, and some bad news for you......... The good news is, that there is no hell. The bad news is, that there is no heaven either. ADVICE: Make the most of your consiousness now. This is no dress rehearsal. When you are dead....... you are dead. People who believe in an afterlife, IMO, give too much regard to the animal, Homo sapien. We are not that much different to other mammals. Certainly not different enough to consider ourselves, all of a sudden, capable of existing beyond our 'physical' machine, the body. Hey, I'd love to be proven wrong !!! I'd even be happy burning in hell for all eternity, if it existed. Sure would be interesting. But, I'm not going to save myself for it, in this life. No way. I'm going to continue experiencing as much as I can, while I can. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thelema Posted May 10, 2003 i wuz gonna say a lot but i juz en'nd up sayin thizz. oh yeah, now I remember a proof I saw: PROOF OF THE INSIGNIFICANCE OF THE SELF 1 + infinity = infinity [ 10. May 2003, 04:25: Message edited by: Thelema ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted May 10, 2003 I dont believe and thats all you need no-one can prove anything If there was a god then hes probabaly forgotten us anyway - like the mouldy experiment you have at the back of the fridge, sure its fun to make but what then? probabaly gone off and gotten started on something else - i mean once you innoculate a jar exctly how long do you stare at itespecially after its contaminated.- and the end of the world will come when Mrs. God finds us. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon Posted May 10, 2003 Thelema using infinity I can prove I am highly significant. In Infinite Universe any spot you choose has infinity around it. Therefore I am the constant centre of the Universe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yeti101 Posted May 10, 2003 Remember Ramon, that by Christian conceptions God is all-powerful (amoungst other things). Sure suffering can lead to empathy, but it does not always. It would take considerable gall (which you evidently have) to suggest that the amount of suffering is remotely proportional to the actual amount of good it does people. It would also seem a bit unfair to try to teach people a lesson by giving them crap they do not deserve. But an all powerful God would not need to do this. He could just will that we have empathy, and so it would be. He is omnipotent after all. Nor is the fact that God 'gave' us free will a defence. Human free will did not cause the eathquake, tsunami mudslide etc. As for people being mean to each other, an omnipotent God could give us free will and at the same time not let us be such bastards to each other, because he is God and can do whatever he wants. 'The Problem of Evil' (as this puzzle is known), poses a major problem for christianity. Either their conception of God is wrong, in which case the world makes a bt more sense, or there is no God. As for this crap: quote: Thelema using infinity I can prove I am highly significant. In Infinite Universe any spot you choose has infinity around it. Therefore I am the constant centre of the Universe For one thing, the universe may not be infinite, just practically so. Secondly, what if I pick the spot, or Thelema picks it, or someone in China etc? We can't all be a the center of the universe, which suggests a logical flaw in your proof. This can be remedied by appealing to solipsism, that is "only I(Ramon) exist". Apart from making you a sociopath, this view has problems, like why are you writing this email to yourself under the guise of some other being. You don't need that, you're the center of the universe, remember. Sarcasam, or gross anthropocentricism, I can't decide. Yeti Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tryptameanie Posted May 10, 2003 quote: We can't all be a the center of the universe, which suggests a logical flaw in your proof. Why can't we? Sure, it's against "common sense", but so is so much of reality at the quantum and cosmic level, common sense only seems to work at human scales. Or maybe the volume of the universe is like the surface of a sphere, where either everywere or nowhere is the centre. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tryptameanie Posted May 10, 2003 Proving that God (or anything else) doesn't exist isn't easy, and may be impossible. However, all the proofs that he does exist are so full of holes you could use them as colanders. My favourite is known as the "Ontological Argument", which goes something like this: God is conceived of as perfect, and has all possible positive attributes, including that of "existance". Any entity which did not exist would therefore not be God. So God must exist. Even harder to argue for than the existance of any god is the existance of an all-PKG(all-powerful,all-knowing,all-good) god as this brings up awkward contradictions like the "Problem of Evil" mentioned. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tryptameanie Posted May 10, 2003 I agree the "Free Will" thing is a piss poor excuse. All the evidence would indicate it doesn't exist anyway. And if we really can make decisions that are not determined causally by past experience, they could only be random, and how can we then be held responsible for them? If there does turn out to be a god, when I die I think I'll punch him in the nose for all the crap he's done to people. That'd be heaven. [ 10. May 2003, 16:21: Message edited by: Tryptameanie ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon Posted May 10, 2003 Yeti101: Sure suffering can lead to empathy, but it does not always. It would take considerable gall (which you evidently have) to suggest that the amount of suffering is remotely proportional to the actual amount of good it does people. It would also seem a bit unfair to try to teach people a lesson by giving them crap they do not deserve. As I mentioned in my first post I do not believe in God as defined by most of the major religions I do however believe in Karma. When I review my life I find that things which were not pleasant have had a big impact in my development. eg. When I was young I was the only Spanish person around which lead to me being picked on alot. I always stood up for myself and invariably had many fights with bullies. This had resulted in me having absolute belief that as long as my actions are good I will come through allright as I was never hurt in any of these fights. A type of faith you could say that resulted from almost mystical experiences in some of these encounters. The end results are that I can proudly say that I have never started a fight in my life. I am highly independent and I value this indepence because I can lead my life as I see fit not having to conform to societies norms if I do not choose to. I generally don't care what other people think of me. ( which is very liberating in our society). My life now is very calm merely because of the hell I went through when I was younger. This is the type of point that I was trying to make not any other. You seem to forget that fair is a human concept who knows what God ( which I don't believe in ) would consider fair. Basically distilled down my point is Shit happens after shit happens you can spend all your time thinking about how unfair it is that shit happpens or you can review the situation try and find the positive in it and move on As for this crap: quote: Thelema using infinity I can prove I am highly significant. In Infinite Universe any spot you choose has infinity around it. Therefore I am the constant centre of the Universe For one thing, the universe may not be infinite, just practically so. Secondly, what if I pick the spot, or Thelema picks it, or someone in China etc? We can't all be a the center of the universe, which suggests a logical flaw in your proof. Yeti I think you will find that whenever you start to fiddle with things like infinity all sort of things which humans depend on start to break down including Logic.I merely stated my position in the above, of course it is the same for everybody else. Everybody is the centre of the universe using the above chain of logic [ 10. May 2003, 18:04: Message edited by: Ramon ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gomaos Posted May 11, 2003 If there does turn out to be a god, when I die I think I'll punch him in the nose for all the crap he's done to people. That'd be heaven. Eggzackly. My vision of judgement day: "god": I am the Lord your God..." Gomaos: "Yeah right muthafucka that's what you think. Take this asshole..." Gomaos kicks god into the groin... "there you go, sucker. be better next time".... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mescalito Posted May 11, 2003 [ 10. May 2003, 23:56: Message edited by: mescalito ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted May 11, 2003 some old thoughts of mine went a bit like this, that jehovah was blakes ancient of days,basically the first soul to awaken in the sea of conciousness,he told those who awaken after him that he was god.but in fact the real question is to do with the nature of the sea and if she is god.i think this helped develop my tantric beliefs. and no one has mentioned the sleeping god theories. t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent_bob84au Posted May 11, 2003 take a read into the 2 books i mentioned in my post in this forum, genisis and holy blood and the holy grail, genisis is a book about rennes le chateau in france and using simple maths and geometry explains ALOT and makes you rethink where your beliefs lie. for eg; IF there was a god or supreme being (god, alien ect) and at the point they create/visit the earth, and the humans are still in their savage form how would you leave a message to them? only 2 things remain constant in the universe mathematics and geometry, because 1 + 1 is always going to equal 2 (even if called somthing else) so the author David wood going through the rennes mystery using math to unravel the story. and geez its soo much better and easier to believe than the bible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mescalito Posted May 12, 2003 So..................... What IS the average AIRSPEEED of an UNLADEN swallow???????????? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thelema Posted May 12, 2003 OK getting serious now: Gomaos original thoughts can be seperated into the 2 issues: 1) the "problem of evil" argument against the existence of God 2) the "deistic" vs the "theistic" conceptions of God. Now the problem of evil really is a thorn in the side of God-provers. Anyone who believes in G, but doesnt acknowledge that this line of arguement is intractable is not being honest with themselves (but hey, religion in the first place is the history of dishonesty) The dei v thei distinction is between a god who, being master of the universe set it into motion with all of its causal laws and then forgot about it, v the creator that started the whole thing off AND keeps it going through 'his' divine influence. THAT'S the INTRO. "proving that god doesnt exist" its one thing to counteract an argument as to the existence of God, and quite another to come up with a positive proof that G does not exist. the best I have been able to come up with is the following: What motivates us to prove that something does not exist? We do not sit around and bother with things that no-one claims ever existed. Therefore the argument toward non-existence is motivated by DISAGREEMENT with the AFFIRMER. Therefore any argument directed to proving the non-existence of anything can never be POSITIVE, it can only be NEGATORY. Thus any proof that god does not exist will never be stronger than(and thus cannot overthrow)any argument FOR the existence of G. INFINITY Yes, I agree YETI101, infinity is a strange concept. Have you all heard of "Cantor's Hotel?" The gist is this: suppose you have a hotel with an infinite amount of rooms that are all full. Suddenly a truckload of infinity guests arrive at the hotel. The manager is just about to turn them all away, when the bellboy comes up with an ingenious plan. "Simply take each resident guest" he says to the manager, "and if their room number is x, then transfer them to room 2x." Since there is an infinity of rooms, then this translation can be easily accomplished. But if this is done for all of the residents, then it leaves an infinite number of rooms free for use. Therefore the infinite number of new guests are able to fit into the hotel quite comfortably. Infinity is a concept that should not be assumed to be understood or talked about until one has studied or at least has an acquaintance with transfinite number theory and higher physics. IT IS NOT AN INTUITIVE concept, it is highly theoretical, and discussion of it otherwise is simply in ignorance to the subtleties involved in it's conception. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yeti101 Posted May 12, 2003 Ramon, I did not deny that your experience has led you to become a better person. What I would deny is that it works that way for everyone, or even the majority of people. No I have no idea what God (who I also do not belive in) would consider fair. We cannot know what it is to be "infintetly good" but we do know that what is "good" as we understand it should be contained within it. To apeal to the idea that we cannot know what God considers to be good or fair is a cop-out of the highest order. Yes, shit does happen. I'll admit that, but don't tell me that all the shit that does happen, happens for a reason that could be considered good. To say that it does implies that we would be worse off if these events did not take place. A quick perusal of 20th century history would seem to kick this idea in the head. Not everyone does so well out of their adversity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tryptameanie Posted May 12, 2003 quote: So..................... What IS the average AIRSPEEED of an UNLADEN swallow???????????? African or Asian? And how many of them can you stick on one pin? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nabraxas Posted May 14, 2003 http://www.generalsemantics.org/ to see why any statement like "there is no god because...", "there is a god because...",or "is there a god?" are meaningless interms ov genuine scientific inquirery. leave the "yes/no" 2 valued Aristotalian logic system behind, visit the excluded middle & you may stop worrying over meaningless questions & answers. an atheist is as much a believer as a theist. [ 14. May 2003, 06:28: Message edited by: nabraxas ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted May 14, 2003 a similar answer to nabraxas? these dualities are modeled in many ways such as the eternity ring[figure 8 on its side] and the tao,or a black hole/white hole duality. t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gomaos Posted May 14, 2003 Well I do admit in my room there's a little desk with buddhas, a big garuda and other hindu deities...I'm an atheist flirting with buddhism...buddhism makes sense because it wants to lead people to enlightened states...to be buddhist you are not required to believe in god...it just wants to put you in touch with your inner deities... not like christiany which drowns people in an ocean of WORDS to make them believe...which is nothing else but BRAINWASHING Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
