Mother bear kills cub and then itself

[tripsis]

Well timed for what, exactly?

When did I discount the possibility? I didn't. I have, however, asked for proof that it is actually propaganda, which you seem unable to provide. If you can't do provide evidence that it is ('well-timed') propaganda, then all you are doing is devaluing the story without reason (unless of course the reason is the spread of your own propaganda). You're full of wild claims, but sparse on any solid basis for them.

[Slybacon]

Timing - Are you serious. It doesn't matter what reason I provide you as my association to "conspiracy theories" automatically dis credits my opinion. According to Tripsis logic. I'm not looking to start a fight, but I'm not looking to take shit either.

[tripsis]

You're not looking for a fight? The following quote seems like a fair challenge to me.

Backing down is probably the best move for you Tripsis.....

Why would backing down be the best move Bacon?

If you provide no reasons for your claims, then you're simply pulling comments out of your arse. I'm not discrediting your opinions, I'm asking for a basis to your own discrediting comments. So, answer my questions if you can. Or can't you?

Edit: I'm not looking to give you shit either. Your snide, eye-rolling comment is what started me.

Edited August 14, 2011 by tripsis

[Slybacon]

Edit: I'm not looking to give you shit either. Your snide, eye-rolling comment is what started me.

 

Yes I was being sacastic. I do accept this could of offended you. You did however play down some of the ideas presented based on the fact it was released by the chinese media first. The fact that the article was lead by that statement should be enough to raise some skepticism.

[tripsis]

I didn't play down anything. I put forth my opinion that based on the purported fact that it was published by the Chinese media, it was probably not published to defame China. I said that in response to one comment by one person.

[Slybacon]

It probably wasn't originally but thats where timing comes into it ;)

Peace.

[dosileflynn]

in response to the original post -- oh my god! thats so sad to hear. i fucking hate knowing that shit like this goes on in the world. what the fuck is wrong with people seriously.

[DarkSpark]

that is disgraceful. The poor animals. Makes me really sad to read this. The idea that they are in so much pain they would try to kill themselves is beyond comprehension to me. I don't care if they are harvesting a cure for cancer this isn't the right way to do it

[sharxx101]

this makes me sad, that people can be so evil to animals, plants & Nature

[Quill]

reading that article brought tears to my eyes. I am aware of the cruelty shown to animals that are seen as possessions but this is horrifying. The idea of the mother bear killing its child to prevent it from living a life of excruciating pain was for me hugely confronting.

[tripsis]

There's no proof that the mother killed its young on purpose or with specific reason, it was just implied by the article. If the implication is correct (that the mother killed its young to liberate it from its suffering), then if provides evidence that (at least some) bears have a high level of sentience. Without proof, however, it's just speculation.

[Slybacon]

I think it is more important to Prove the validity of the source. There is no hyper link accompanying the story and all sources I can find are regurgitation the same words exactly. Syncronised blogging efforts. Since when do we need to proove an article is false when there is nothing in the article to proove that it happened. I am aware there is a disgusting Bile industry going on, but to say a bear killed its young and then it self is pretty far fetched. When I see articles like this I question the motivation, and with the current political environment regarding world super powers I am reluctant to let this tug on my emotions.

EDIT> 1

The Chinese media ,The witness ,The workers are all example of ambigous reporting. There are lots and lots of sources all copy pasting the same article with no talk of original source of the Witness , Media or Workers verifying the information contained. You see where Im going with this? The proof that it is fake lies in the lack of proof that it happened.

Edit> 2

"A person who was on the farm in place of a friend witnessed the procedures and told Reminbao.com that they were inhumane"

http://www.reminbao.com/

Another Ambiguos statement. It is typical of this style of reporting when there is a Propaganda agenda underlying the content. With all propoganda you pick topics which are emotionally un ethical. That way if you question the integrity you seem like an inhumane character. Same thing with Race or Sexuality. It makes debating such subjects extremely difficult. Its easier to view this article as propoganda when you ignore the emotional attachment to the Bear and Cub.

EDIT 3

Apon closer inspection it appear this article orginated from the USA. Or at least was hosted on a server within the USA.

Site is hosted in a single location: Houston in United States and has the Alexa Rank of 69,002.

I don't think I need to take this any further. My point is fairly clear now. Sorry if I came off as insulting but i had a long weekend and I did not feel I needed to justify my reasons as clearly. It seems on emotional topics its easy to get led away for concerns of the victims.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Slybacon

[Francois le Danque]

there would be considerable costs involved in such practices, i.e anaesthesia for desexing etc. such a cost would be hard for farmers to cover, i mean many farmers struggle to make ends meet as it is. perhaps funds could be provided by gov or other means??

 

this is similar to the thing that comes up with the carbon tax. that being, if farmers can't make money farming, maybe they should do something else, something there is demand for, rather than artificially keeping a dead industry alive through subsidies.

edit: oh and to be relevant to thread: the bear industry is sickening and should definitely not continue. in vietnam i visited a zoo where rescued bears live, and even then they didn't seem too happy. they still slept in small cages, but were allowed outside during the day. as with most issues of this type it seems the best way to stop it happening is by reducing demand, not demonising the perpetrators (though i DO think they must be evil).

Edited August 16, 2011 by frank

[incognito]

i would agree frank, however alot of australias export industry is reliant on farmers produce. not to mention our own diets. the way i see it farmers are fucked every day of their life by the government. i and many of my freiends where not allowed to get youth allowance, nor was our families entitled to any family tax benefit, despite being dirt poor, due to the "assets" our familys owned. What farmers receive from the govt is minimal, especially in contrast to the support u.s farmers receive.

I do think that farmers, especially the battlers really need better financial support form the govt. All the farm aid benefits u have heard of on the telly, guess where the money goes to? those farmers with govt contracts. we received zilch from drought aid campaigns.

i guess the best way consumers can support aussie farmers it to buy local produce. Farming is a tough gig, expenses are high, yet the income is quite low. especially when the gov considers all of the machinery u need to produce crops as cash in ur hand.

muelsing is one process i find highly unnaceptable. man i used to have to do it. this is one area where an anaesthetic should be used.i have also seen a horrifically fly-blown sheep, and with hindsight i know which pain i would prefer. Merinos are the higher paying wool source, and many families rely on that wool to get bye. To anethatise (spelling?) a merino for meulsing would cost the famer a fortune in both anesthetic and time. I dont condone it, i understand it.

We wouldnt be here talkin on this forum now (more than likely) if it wasnt for merino sheep.

I dont condone any form of unnecessary cruely, and again, the bear bile industry strikes me as sickening and unnecessary. But one cant point the finger at china, when animal cruelty is inherrant in our own culture. None more sickening than the example i provided in regards to pig hunting.

I admire real vegans who do not eat any form of meat due to their respect for animals. the vegans that dont wear leather or use any form of animal product. to these guys i tip my hat. thats talking the talk and walking the walk. I only wish i had that kind of commitment to averting animal suffering.

However in my own personal opinion, which is not necessarily true, i have canine teeth and molars. I believe we are designed to be omnivores. I have tried being vegetarian but always a t-bone steak brings me unstuck. I for one am all for the "ethical slaughter" of animals, and would be happy paying a few extra dollars as a consumer for meat that has come from an ethically raised and slaughtered animal (meat is f'ing expensive anyways if u look at supermarket prices) our local butcher selects and slaughters his own meat from local farmers. Hes a pretty nice and ethical guy, so i have no qualms buying meat from him and supporting the local farmers.

I have friends who work in the abbys here, and from what i understand and mistreatment of the animals results in instant dismissal. They have pretty strict guidelines to work buy. What i found of interest is how they slaughter the pigs. The pigs are on like this ferris wheel kind of construction, in cages. The cages one by one, drop into a pit in the concrete floor, where the animals are gassed. Then workers enter the pit, and cut their throats while the pigs are asleep. My friend tells me its very effective, and rarely is a pig concious when they enter the pit. This strikes me as quite an ethical prectice. And im glad, as i loves my bacon and roast pork sangers!

Edited August 16, 2011 by incognito

[tripsis]

Maybe you're right Bacon, maybe it is propaganda, but you can't prove it anymore than I can prove the opposite. Personally, I think it's irrelevant. The information in the article is not out of the realms of plausibility. It doesn't even really matter if the mother bear existed or not, she and her cub signify the suffering that is inflicted in bile farms in China everyday, farms which are supported by the government. If highlighting the atrocities inflicted upon bears in bile farms is propaganda, then so be it, though I see propaganda as the spread of politically motivated lies.

The argument that we can't point the finger at anyone else until we free of any shortcomings is stupid. It's not like we don't point the finger at ourselves. Just look at the livestock export debacle. There are plenty of people in this country that don't agree with countless practices which exist here, but they're not the ones in power. Likewise, those who wrote that article on bile farms are not the same people that wrote the laws that allow cruelty to exist here.

[incognito]

i agree tripsis. but i think its equally important to realise that just as cruel treatment of animals is occuring in our own backyard.

[Slybacon]

I hear what your saying tripsis. I just don't condone lying to get a result. Its the same thing they do to us, and it only makes us weak to stoop to the same level. I feel for the bears, but I can never truely understand the bigger picture.

[tripsis]

Incog, I fully realise the abhorrent practices that go on in this country. Just today in my Advanced Biology tute, we were discussing the medical phenomenon of syringomyelia. Almost all the experiments done so far to work out how the cysts form involved animal testing ranging from intentionally giving them syrinxes to genetically modifying aquaporin knockout mice (which invariably results to hydrocephalus). All this so a few people may suffer less. I am in support no more for the cruelties which exist here than I am for the ones that occur in China.

I don't agree with lying to make a point either Sly, but there's no proof that that has happened here.

[woof woof woof]

just a few batches of poison laced bear bile out there and the demand will drop tremendously.

just an idea. might be an extreme idea to some,.... but if the bears arnt suffering in bile milking cages,.. then they will be because of habitat loss,.... and a few people less on the earth right now is always good, as there are too many us right now.

[ThunderIdeal]

yeah, let's poison the most unethical consumables and hence reduce unethical consumers. that's a pretty neat idea TBH but how can we target the real maggots of the world. perhaps just poison all of the most unfathomably expensive products.

[woof woof woof]

heehhehe,..... high lsd / shroom dose,.. maybe some arsenic,.. just enough to feel ill in the bear bile.... send them off on a horror trip....... ahhhrgh,.. after thinking it over it's horrible too,.... these bear bile MOFO's,... what illnesses do they treat with it?? the poor fuckers might be ill and willing to do anything to get healthy and perhaps not even know how much suffering they are causing these animals. Maybe they should get an MDMA/OPIATE/LSD injection..... then they can perhaps see the light and eat shrooms instead of bear bile for health.