London riots/looting

[∂an]

There is a context to London's riots that can't be ignored

Those condemning the events in north London and elsewhere would do well to take a step back and consider the bigger picture.

 

I'm not sure I totally agree with the point of view put forward in this article, but it raises some interesting questions.

Firstly, it seems to me that there is a spectrum of people involved in the riots and looting - from anarchists seeking to simply cause havoc to opportunistic criminals looking to steal. But what they all probably have in common is that they are pissed off at how they are treated by society. I don't accept that the London Police can simply arrest those causing this trouble and the problem will be solved. To me this kind of violent outburst, which is becoming more and more common in many countries (france, chile, canada etc), is the product of a dysfunctional society that produces a socieconomic hierarchy with a large, disillusioned underclass. Sure, most of the people rioting and looting probably don't have a grand political agenda at the forefront of their mind, and get a big thrill out of doing so. But a truly balanced, caring, and humane society would not produce people that would feel it was ok to steal and destroy property. It's alarming that there are reports now that the UK government is under pressure to rethink spending cuts for the police, when the correct response to dealing with the underlying problems would be to focus on public infrastructure, education, employment etc.

We are all in this together; when we see a section of society behaving in a way we disagree with, we can't just make scape goats of them and claim if we weed them out it will all be okay - we need to deal with the underlying issues.

[∂an]

 

[Slybacon]

Just a thought- If you wanted to unite all nations under one government you would need a breakdown of the current system. Sigma a name most of us loath may own Australias detention centers and many of the prisons. It would be a fair army to call on should you need to accomplish the sort of disorder we have been seeing and one you could easiliy bribe to do your nasties. It also serves as an expendable mercenary that you can turn against should they not serve your interestes anymore and society is conditioned to not care.

[santiago]

a few days ago i mentioned what role the military are meant to have in a moment of national security, yes there is a police force who may get the job done slowly but wouldnt you just mobilise all trained military who are meant to be actually prepared for combat.

a young guy died thismorning hit by a car of looters, obviously the police response isnt working if there are car loads of looters killing innocent people, if UK had sent the national armed forces in a few days ago then this bloke may not have died.

this riot has got nothing to do with anything rational anymore so make an examplke and send the full force of the armed forces with police backup and squash it whilst they can.

i ask again what role do the armed forces actually play, especially in australia..........now in the UK?

[Slybacon]

They don't want it to end.

The new enemy = The people. Are you scared of your nieghbours yet?

[Sallubrious]

Like Santiago said, they could of rolled out the army and it would have been over no time. A band of yobbos is no match for armed trained soldiers.

I think they were waiting for at least one death to give them some leverage, now the general public will be demanding action and they will seem justified in passing some draconian laws to "protect" people. Their new bills will most likely pass without much if any opposition.

Edit - with the Olympics coming the ability to shoot almost anyone will be a boon to national security forces.

Edited August 11, 2011 by SallyD

[botanika]

The joy of every Multiculturalist society.

Waterstones staff member: 'We'll probably stay open. If they steal some books, they might actually learn something.'

[botanika]

they could of rolled out the army and it would have been over no time. A band of yobbos is no match for armed trained soldiers.

 

...but the army is overseas fighting wars ;)

London before and after:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2011/aug/09/london-riots-before-after-photographs

Statistics reveal reality of inner city crime:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856787/Violent-inner-city-crime-the-figures-and-a-question-of-race.html

[Zen Peddler]

As an adult I didnt like seeing the kids kicking the police dog and the bullying of innocent people and theft, but it shoes how people in large metropol communities dont actually feel in any way connected to that community. They can thieve off people down the street without any concern or shame because they feel the world is very us versus them. And a society based on the drive and needs only of the self rather than the community is the consequence of free market capitalism.

You get a bunch of testosterone charged kids, other authority haters and a chance to cause havoc and this is the result. it could really happen in any country at any time - economic issues might increase the tension, but tell me a teenage male that wouldnt go down to a riot if their mates range them about it. Sorry but its true.

There are aspects about humans that we dont like to acknowledge. We are all hypocrits - even to ourselves. But again, a society of haves and have nots set up in a way to limit the possibilities of that status quo ever changing and situations were the have nots are regulated with lots of laws while the haves get away with all sorts of shit are all fertile grounds for diseffected sections of society, and ultimately rioting, carnage and this kind of shit.

Again it all comes down to modern fuedal capitalism and consumerism. its got fuck all to do with multiculturalism or any other opportunism from the right to further divide our communities.

[Slybacon]

You get a bunch of testosterone charged kids, other authority haters and a chance to cause havoc and this is the result. it could really happen in any country at any time - economic issues might increase the tension, but tell me a teenage male that wouldnt go down to a riot if their mates range them about it. Sorry but its true.

 

That is why traditional cultures require a rite of passage. Sorts the men from the boys.

[Zen Peddler]

yeah i agree and often in those cultures there is much more sense of community - the nuclear family and the current social systems actually foster this type of class and cultural divide. There is no sense of community, there are just groups of people actively trying to exploit one another and then when some kids take it too far...

[Slybacon]

I don't think it is as simple as that. Not only do I believe that capitalism breeds anti social behavior, it also needs it. Therefore it would not surprise me if the violence and hate was not directly started by the British secret service leading up to the Olympics. I have no evidence to support such a claim its just an idea.

[synchromesh]

A band of yobbos is no match for armed trained soldiers.

 

Are you sure about that?

[Zen Peddler]

I don't think it is as simple as that. Not only do I believe that capitalism breeds anti social behavior, it also needs it. Therefore it would not surprise me if the violence and hate was not directly started by the British secret service leading up to the Olympics. I have no evidence to support such a claim its just an idea.

 

the majority media opinion of why these things happen is simpler.

[Sheather]

Depends on the size of the band and the quality of the soldiers I guess synchro. Also the willingness of the soldiers to obey whatever orders they're given. There are many cases of armed forces being won over by peaceful protesters, but once violence is inflicted upon them I think you'd be getting less mercy than you're hoping for, so there are many factors I think need to be taken into account. If by soldiers he meant a lone pair, then they'd get torn to shreds by a large band, if it was meant that the entire armed forces would turn out and mobilise then there'd be less chance for the yobbos...

[botanika]

I don't think it's as simple as that either. Look at all the footage and who the main body of culprits are is pretty clear. The media as much as it tries can't ignore that but people will see what they want to see.

“There is nothing more dangerous than to build a society with a large segment of people in that society who feel that they have no stake in it; who feel that they have nothing to lose. People who have stake in their society, protect that society, but when they dont have it, they unconsciously want to destroy it'

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Where is Chuck Norris?

[Slybacon]

"The true role of these Intelligence networks is the protection of the commerce system its that simple. British SIS control all the agencies from the Pakistani ISI, MOSSAD to the CIA. Remember on they created them all." ~Craig

[synchromesh]

London’s Burning: Revolt of the youth

Rebels portrayed as thugs

In an interview with the BBC Tuesday morning, Home Minister Theresa May set the official tone by ruling out of order any discussion whatsoever that the urban rebellions might be due to anything other than just “thieving and looting”.

But what was the spark that set off this firestorm of rage?

It was the killing of 29-year-old father of four Mark Duggan (pictured left) by the Metropolitan Police in the North London borough of Tottenham.

Duggan was a resident of the Broadwater Farm Estate, a large social housing complex that was the setting for a powerful rebellion 26 years ago, when a police raid killed Cynthia Jarrett, the mother of a local community activist.

Mark Duggan was widely known in the local community, who have been shocked and angered as details of the killing have emerged. He was killed by the police after an armed unit stopped the mini-cab he was traveling in.

According to the Evening Standard, the main London evening paper (‘Father Dies and Policeman Hurt in ‘Terrifying’ , shoot-out’, 05/08/2011), a 20-year-old eyewitness saw Mark Duggan killed while he was lying on the ground. The witness is quoted as saying: ‘About three or four police officers had both men pinned on the ground at gunpoint. They were really big guns and then I heard four long shots. The police shot him [Duggan] on the floor.’

[∂an]

Caroline Lucas MP, leader of the Green party, has put out a statement condemning the "horrendous violence, arson and looting" of recent days but saying lessons must be taken from it:

If we stop at denunciations and crackdowns, nothing will be learned about why sections of our own population feel they can riot, loot and treat their neighbours and communities so appallingly.

"The bigger picture has to be considered. Britain is deeply unequal.

"Last year, London's richest people were worth 273 times more than its poorest.

"Given the growing evidence … that increasing inequality had a role to play in at least some of the rioting, the government must commit to an impact assessment of any further policies to establish if they will increase inequality …

"The prime minister has said this is 'not about poverty but about culture'. But it is about both. It is about inequality and culture and how dangerous it is when you mix growing inequality with a culture which puts consumerism above citizenship.

 

link

[nabraxas]

i think the riots in Tottenham (just down the road from where i used to live) where caused by anger at the police & were mainly directed at the police w/some looting as a side show.

the riots in Enfield (where my mother lives) & elsewhere that followed where caused by CHAVs seeing how the police were going "softly softly" & deciding they could get in on the looting action.

In Enfield the police where not attacked, when they turned up the looters would disperse & regroup in another area away from the police so they could start looting again.

some links:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-mood-calmer-premeditated?INTCMP=SRCH

UK riots: Iran calls on UN to intervene over 'violent suppression'

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad condemns British government for its 'brutal beating' of 'the opposition'

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-iran-un-mahmoud-ahmadinejad

[∂an]

I don't think it is as simple as that. Not only do I believe that capitalism breeds anti social behavior, it also needs it. Therefore it would not surprise me if the violence and hate was not directly started by the British secret service leading up to the Olympics. I have no evidence to support such a claim its just an idea.

 

I think this gives the powers that be too much credit. They aren't that smart and influential. I worry that theories such as this distract from the real 'conspiracy', which is that consumer-capitalism creates a disillusioned underclass with no hope for the future.

[Sallubrious]

Are you sure about that?

 

I suppose there could be exceptions Synchro, but most of the time when mobs riot and go on a reign of terror and violence the mob takes a very predicable M.O.

Look what happened when New York riots happened and armed militia an federal troops stepped in, they put and end to the mob in 1 day.

New York riots

Mobile phones have altered the behaviour a bit but in general most mobs have no higher command structure to coordinate things and form strategy so they still behave in a swarm like pattern. The mean intelligence of a mob is generally lower than the intelligence of its members.

The main advantage for the army is that they have a command structure and are very organised, they have refined the art of controlling & overpowering unorganised mobs for thousands of years. A mob by definition has no real command structure and quickly crumbles when faced with an organised force armed with automatic weapons and armoured vehicles.

If the rioters were organised and had an intelligent command structure, they would be in effect an army and then that would be a whole new ball game.

[nabraxas]

The AJ asks prominent architectural thinkers to comment on the architecture of our cities. More comments added daily.

Joseph Rykwert

Cities incite riots - and herding people in high rise reservoirs of social aggression doesn’t help: if we didn’t have football and rugby matches to release it, however messily, we’d have many more, though riots are almost always triggered by specific incidents. Current hoody anomie was fostered by the spectacle of the fat-cats bloated bonuses accompanying the ‘we’re all in it’ talk about cuts - as well as by the knowledge that the police was among the public services to be mutilated (which also goes for parks, youth centres), so was inevitably demoralised. And the spark was a mishandled police shooting. Locking up cowed hoodies in overcrowded prisons won’t solve anything. We need to think about public housing and public space - quickly

Richard Sennett

The riots were all too predictable: a generation of poor, young people with no future becomes a tinderbox for violence. The British riots have one resemblance to those which afflicted France in the last decade; they occur in the places where no-hopers live, rather than political riots directed at the centres of power; the result is that the principle victims are their local neighbours

Jeremy Till

At least the architects are not blamed this time, as we were with Broadwater. Nor could we be, because (quoting Simmel) the city is not a spatial entity with sociological consequences, but a sociological entity that is formed spatially. Here the riots spatialise years of ramping up of social inequality. So when my Twitter feed calls for the reintroduction of Jane Jacobs, I blanch (because space is not the solution, just the symptom) and when the Tories say it is ‘pure’ criminality, I rage (because of the implicit disavowal of their political responsibility). One way out? Act on the New Economic Foundation’s Great Transition

Alain de Botton

People tend to distinguish between violence against people (very serious) and violence against property (not so bad). But in these riots, what emerges is how offensive it is to see buildings on fire because this symbolises a destruction of the hopes and efforts of so many who struggled to build and maintain them. It isn’t just money that goes up in flames; it’s the spirit of civilisation

Robert Tavernor

The London riots are a sobering reminder that cities are for people, that people make cities. Cities rely on a precarious social balance that can be wrecked by the irresponsible. Leadership and good action are now essential

Irena Bauman

I already talked about this before it happened. I’ve made many comments about the wealth divide within cities and how it is impacting on physical and social geographies and increases fear and violence. We will see much more of this kind of unrest in the future. No amount of regeneration funding will help. We need to change the core values of our society and redistribute wealth, if a long term solution is to be found.

William JR Curtis

London has been up for sale to the highest bidders in the international plutocracy for years and the results are there to see in the Shard and all the other grotesque signs of exaggerated wealth that are in fact impoverishing the public realm for everybody else. Worse than that, British politicians of both Left and Right have sold their souls and their policies to the City of London and therefore to the vagaries of international financial capitalism which has no loyalties and no sense of local responsibility. All the eyewash of Cameron’s so called Big Society cannot disguise the fact that the bottom end of society has been abondoned: Is one surprised that one kind of violence is responding to another kind? No, not really.

Wouter Vanstiphout

The reality of urban riots is that they have always turned out to be the opposite of a learning experience for a city. Riots have nearly always resulted in politicians simplifying the problem even more, and looking away even further. After a riot your average city will become more afraid, more authoritarian, more segregated, more exclusive and less tolerant. That is the real tragedy of the post-war western urban riot, first it shocks and terrifies us, then for a moment it makes us see flashes of the kind of city we should be working towards, which then fades away into the darkness.

Yasmin Shariff

Regeneration schemes have made a difference where they have offered an opportunity to the under privileged, but these projects should not be confused with developments that displace the urban poor. Riots in new regeneration areas point to the schism where ordinary people cannot afford the new people’s palaces - the £160m regeneration in Dalston by Barratt Homes for instance boasts residents gym, 24hr concierge, buzzing public square, shops a library and a 2 bed apartments will set you back £350K . It can be little surprise that these regeneration areas are being torched. As long as these kids are trapped in the poverty of their circumstance riots such as the ones we have seen will continue to erupt. What we are experiencing are the consequence of policies which pander to big business and line the pockets of bankers, developers, PFI companies and other private organisations at the expense of the public purse.

Marianne Mueller

Our practice is involved in the design review assessment of regeneration schemes. You can’t deny the strong commercial focus of recent regeneration projects that push out other (in the short term, less profitable) functions. Spaces for young people and public facilities in general (nurseries, libraries, green open spaces…) are definitely not a focus in the schemes we have been reviewing over the last few years. Projects like ‘Youth Space’ by MADE remain a rarity - especially with the recent cuts - where young people can get actively involved in the design of their environment, develop a sense of ownership and simply have a place to be. To quote the opening of the publication of the Youth Space project documentation, ‘Of all those excluded from any given urban territory, youth surely form the greatest subset. They are excluded on the grounds that they are not yet adults, that they cannot pay, that they are trouble makers, that they will break the law, be noisy, or frighten other customers away.’

Alan Atlee

frenzied looting /frénzid lu:tin/ v. widespread property damage and theft of consumer goods perpetrated by exhilarated groups of young working class men.

synonyms 1. Age of Austerity / v. systematic transfer of wealth from public to private interests, via government policies of welfare reduction; privatisation in education, health and social care; planning policy liberalisation and regressive taxation. (Important context for understanding timing and extent of frenzied looting.) 2.Sovereign Debt Crisis / n. threat of nation state or states defaulting on their debt obligations and causing significant capital losses for private banks and investors. (Threat of provides political cover for Age of Austerity.) 3. Bank Bailout / n & v. systematic transfer of capital from public taxpayers to private shareholders following revelations of balance sheet insolvency across range of financial institutions. (Contributes to Sovereign Debt Crisis by inflating state borrowing and depressing economic activity.) 4. subprime lending / v & n. esp. relating to housing mortgage market. Financial mechanism used by banking institutions whereby loans are made to individuals normally excluded from credit markets. Made possible the fictitious profits and bonuses in the banking sector and the regeneration boom in our cities – see also buy-to-let mortgage; Private Finance Initiative. (Largely responsible for banking insolvencies and subsequent Bank Bailouts.)

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/riots-sennett-rykwert-till-de-botton-and-tavernor-on-why-britain-is-burning/8618373.article

[botanika]

The whole of east asia lives in high density high rise and they dont riot like this. The media keeps steering away from the real issue of what can happen when you allow lots of people from the 3rd world into the 1st. One of the rioters had allegedly only been in the UK 3 months from Cameroon. Really, he's that upset with britains urban planning already? Let's see Cameroon try host an olympics. Just remember which group said they will take 'a leading role in immigration in europe'. Immigration is not a bad thing until you get inbalance. Just like economies. What is happening to western civilization today is what happened to Rome and ancient Egypt.

Edited August 12, 2011 by botanika

[Slybacon]

^^^^ SOCIAL INTERGRATION - It's happening here in Australia as well. 3rd world refugee's being strategically placed into lower class and middle class suburbs. There is a lot of tension building thats for sure. I hope this comment doesn't get taken out of context as a racial slur.

nteresting how it was Moslems killed in the Birmingham riots and how it was the trident of the three and we know who worship this serpent God don't we? Gearing up now to kick of Moslems against blacks and whites as they show whites kicking off in the riots too and all during the peaceful Ramadan to wind up the Moslems even more. This is engineered so the Moslems kick off and the authorities come down really hard on them. Then the British Secret Service in conjunction with British Secret Intelligence Service and Bombardier Master Trust the same old clan will create the false flag home grown terrorist events claiming Al-Qaeda etc and well the Moslems are toast then as whites, blacks and all other religions wish to removal of Moslems from the nation. Can you see it coming? It isn't a black on white race war its all about a combination of all but the real target is the Moslems. The Worshipful Company of Fuellers is fueling the fire with the media now trying to bring on racial hatred and tension where there isn't any. They will continue to stir the pot until they get their goal.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Slybacon