Chemtrails over Newcastle

[mescalito]

I guess anyone who has done their research knows this has been done before and admitted-FACT!

Personally I'm a bit more worried about weather/(greenhouse) manipulation using stuff like Aluminium flakes and radioactive isotopes.

I'll gather what I can find on the sim-cards,folders etc and post tonight...one pic is in the gallery already.

There is NO doubt when you actually witness these events especially curved and spiral streams....man they aint passenger craft!!!

Also when your baby breaks out in a rash and you and you partner have flu/itching/histamine type reactions afterwards,to me it's not condensation....and don't try to sell me bullshit that it's exhaust or some shit,my car runs better than that and it's on THE GROUND

[synchromesh]

Who do you trust Syncro?

And more importantly....

Who trusts you?

 

Why, because I've shown strange behavior as well now have I?

[Slybacon]

I guess anyone who has done their research knows this has been done before and admitted-FACT!

 

No, anyone who has done their research and applied it to the trails they are witnessing will see 99% of them are discounted as more likely to be a con trail. Seriously man look at the data. There is small number of suspicious sightings but I'm yet to see anything to convince me beyond a doubt. You can't just quote videos and papers unless you can show why they are accurate. Good points are just that, good points. They are not evidence. Mesc im not trying to attack you, Im trying to improve the reputation of alternative views in general. The result of this will be benificial for everyone.

If its Fact, and you understand it, why can't you articulate in a way that can be debated.

There is NO doubt when you actually witness these events especially curved and spiral streams....man they aint passenger craft!!!

 

Never seen one. Photos , videos times and dates please....

Also when your baby breaks out in a rash and you and you partner have flu/itching/histamine type reactions afterwards,to me it's not condensation....and don't try to sell me bullshit that it's exhaust or some shit,my car runs better than that and it's on THE GROUND

 

Fear? Again, show me some evidence. Un supported statements wont get this discussion moving at all.....

You need to prove they are not standard everyday con trails before you can start blaming them for health problems. Statistics can be manipulated to point to a desired result. This works for both sides, so be clear, articulate and thorough. Come on man you know how people look at this, lets get smarter. Especially if you are proposing peoples health is at risk. Proof Required.....

Go back people to the last post by Sally-D with the data from the correct day. This is what we need to disscussing.

Focus People!

Why, because I've shown strange behavior as well now have I?

 

Are you going to actually add to this discussion or are you intent on sending it further off the rails. One would of thought this discussion to be right down your alley, but all you have done is assume that you know more than some of the other members by posting to Documentries and Articles neither of which provide anyproof for the witness accounts by the OP. The OP has even gone and asked for opinion on data but instead you just think Im personnally attacking you.... Open your eyes man, prove you do know what your talking about and give us your valid opinion without condecending on those that disagree.

Again.....

Go back to the Data posted by Sally'd and look closely. There is some alarming co incidences that support your claims and you to ignorant to see past your own ego.

EDIT>

You missed my point with "who trusts you" comment. No one will watch your video posts and articles if you have no respect. Try actually posting "your" research. Not regurgitationg. If no one trusts you, no one will listen to you.....

Edited July 27, 2011 by Slybacon

[mescalito]

 

a GP said that to me once and reckoned I was a Schizo.....turns out he's actually a Mason

 

[mescalito]

Didn't see the ensuing post.

I agree that, well if this is to become legitamised, then society still needs the tangible...yes they are mostly still stuck in a certain "Old Physics" way of science so it's always going to be a hard sell until it does smack them in the gob.

When you HAVE seen Orbs,then NO-ONE will ever change your mind,though they may doubt your credibility or story.

Very thorough investigation by Sally D, so far as I can see....sorry pressed for time these days so quick responses and lags in visits.

[Slybacon]

^^ Is there a source one can find air traffic reports for a given airspace?

-Traffic

-Coordinates

-Direction/Heading

-Altitude

-Time

-ID

 

I just realised that the sounding data that I posted yesterday was for the 24 hours to the 24th July, so it most likely did not detail relevant data for the period in question, I should have posted data for the 24 hours to the 25th of July to get a depiction of the weather on the 24th, so I've been informed by someone who chooses to stay anon.

Anyway here it is

I've highlighted the line with the temp and dew point for a commercial flight flying at a common altitude to take the low atitude out of the equation.

94776 YSWM Williamtown Amo Raaf Observations at 00Z 25 Jul 2011

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRES HGHT TEMP DWPT RELH MIXR DRCT SKNT THTA THTE THTV

hPa m C C % g/kg deg knot K K K

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1018.0 8 9.8 6.1 78 5.83 0 0 281.5 297.8 282.5

1001.0 150 8.8 4.3 73 5.23 295 10 281.9 296.6 282.8

1000.0 158 9.0 4.2 72 5.20 295 10 282.1 296.8 283.0

969.0 420 10.8 1.8 54 4.52 289 22 286.5 299.6 287.3

952.0 567 10.1 1.5 55 4.50 285 29 287.3 300.3 288.1

925.0 806 9.0 1.0 57 4.47 270 23 288.5 301.5 289.3

892.0 1106 7.2 1.2 66 4.70 257 19 289.7 303.4 290.5

853.0 1472 4.2 -0.8 70 4.24 240 14 290.3 302.8 291.0

850.0 1501 4.0 -1.0 70 4.20 240 14 290.3 302.7 291.1

717.0 2857 -7.3 -8.0 95 2.93 275 23 292.4 301.2 292.9

701.0 3033 -8.2 -9.6 90 2.65 280 24 293.2 301.3 293.7

700.0 3044 -8.3 -9.7 90 2.63 280 24 293.3 301.3 293.7

646.0 3662 -12.9 -13.7 94 2.07 267 27 294.9 301.3 295.2

636.0 3781 -12.5 -15.2 81 1.86 265 27 296.6 302.5 296.9

635.0 3793 -12.5 -15.3 80 1.84 265 27 296.8 302.6 297.1

588.0 4378 -14.3 -34.3 17 0.36 245 19 301.3 302.5 301.3

587.0 4390 -14.4 -33.9 17 0.37 245 19 301.3 302.6 301.3

568.0 4638 -16.7 -26.7 42 0.76 248 18 301.4 304.0 301.6

541.0 5002 -19.9 -32.9 30 0.45 253 16 301.8 303.4 301.9

524.0 5237 -22.1 -31.1 44 0.55 257 14 302.0 303.9 302.1

508.0 5464 -23.9 -33.6 41 0.44 260 13 302.4 304.0 302.5

500.0 5580 -24.9 -34.9 39 0.40 255 14 302.6 304.0 302.7

451.0 6325 -29.5 -55.5 6 0.05 251 37 305.9 306.1 305.9

444.0 6435 -30.5 -56.1 6 0.04 250 41 306.1 306.2 306.1

400.0 7170 -36.9 -59.9 7 0.03 255 43 306.9 307.1 307.0

379.0 7539 -39.6 -61.2 8 0.03 255 43 308.2 308.3 308.2

356.0 7966 -42.7 -62.7 9 0.02 255 55 309.6 309.6 309.6

344.0 8196 -43.6 -65.2 7 0.02 255 61 311.4 311.4 311.4

300.0 9110 -47.3 -75.3 3 0.00 250 57 318.6 318.6 318.6

262.0 9996 -50.9 -80.9 2 0.00 250 55 325.9 325.9 325.9

250.0 10300 -51.3 -81.3 2 0.00 250 58 329.7 329.7 329.7

242.0 10512 -50.6 -81.6 1 0.00 250 48 333.7 333.8 333.7

218.0 11195 -48.5 -82.5 1 0.00 253 63 347.1 347.2 347.1

204.0 11630 -49.1 -83.1 1 0.00 255 72 352.8 352.8 352.8

200.0 11760 -49.3 -83.3 1 0.00 260 70 354.5 354.6 354.5

182.0 12374 -50.2 -83.9 1 0.00 270 68 362.7 362.7 362.7

166.0 12972 -51.1 -84.4 1 0.00 255 77 370.8 370.8 370.8

154.0 13460 -51.9 -84.9 1 0.00 259 73 377.6 377.6 377.6

150.0 13630 -52.9 -85.9 1 0.00 260 72 378.7 378.7 378.7

130.0 14541 -55.8 -87.8 1 0.00 265 80 389.3 389.3 389.3

113.0 15433 -58.7 -89.7 1 0.00 250 68 399.8 399.8 399.8

109.0 15659 -58.7 -89.7 1 0.00 245 61 404.0 404.0 404.0

100.0 16200 -58.7 -89.7 1 0.00 260 44 414.0 414.1 414.0

90.0 16858 -60.1 -89.8 1 0.00 275 50 423.9 423.9 423.9

84.9 17222 -60.9 -89.8 1 0.00 267 56 429.4 429.4 429.4

84.0 17289 -60.5 -89.8 1 0.00 265 57 431.5 431.5 431.5

78.1 17745 -57.9 -89.9 1 0.00 255 42 446.0 446.0 446.0

75.0 17998 -59.0 -89.6 1 0.00 250 33 448.9 448.9 448.9

70.0 18430 -60.9 -89.0 1 0.00 275 30 453.8 453.8 453.8

69.0 18519 -61.0 -88.9 1 0.00 280 31 455.5 455.5 455.5

66.4 18758 -61.1 -88.5 2 0.00 273 30 460.2 460.2 460.2

60.0 19397 -58.2 -87.7 1 0.00 255 28 480.2 480.2 480.2

54.0 20061 -55.2 -86.8 1 0.00 255 27 501.8 501.9 501.8

53.1 20167 -54.7 -86.7 1 0.00 267 25 505.4 505.4 505.4

51.0 20424 -56.4 -88.4 1 0.00 295 19 507.1 507.2 507.1

50.0 20550 -57.3 -89.3 1 0.00 295 21 508.0 508.0 508.0

49.0 20677 -58.4 -89.9 1 0.00 300 23 508.4 508.4 508.4

48.0 20807 -59.5 -90.5 1 0.00 285 23 508.7 508.8 508.7

45.0 21212 -59.0 -90.0 1 0.00 240 22 519.4 519.5 519.4

44.5 21282 -58.9 -89.9 1 0.00 249 21 521.3 521.3 521.3

43.0 21500 -56.4 -88.5 1 0.00 275 19 532.6 532.6 532.6

41.9 21664 -54.5 -87.5 1 0.00 283 17 541.3 541.3 541.3

41.0 21802 -55.3 -88.0 1 0.00 290 15 542.6 542.7 542.6

39.0 22121 -57.1 -89.3 1 0.00 255 10 545.8 545.8 545.8

38.4 22219 -57.7 -89.7 1 0.00 267 15 546.8 546.8 546.8

38.0 22286 -57.0 -89.1 1 0.00 275 18 550.2 550.2 550.2

37.0 22457 -55.3 -87.7 1 0.00 265 16 558.8 558.8 558.8

35.0 22813 -51.7 -84.7 1 0.01 315 19 577.1 577.2 577.1

34.0 23001 -52.0 -85.0 1 0.01 335 22 581.0 581.1 581.0

31.0 23598 -53.1 -86.1 1 0.01 295 23 593.6 593.7 593.6

30.0 23810 -53.5 -86.5 1 0.01 315 17 598.2 598.3 598.2

28.0 24253 -53.9 -86.7 1 0.01 300 23 608.9 609.0 608.9

24.0 25242 -54.9 -87.2 1 0.01 285 30 633.6 633.6 633.6

23.0 25515 -55.1 -87.3 1 0.01 305 30 640.5 640.6 640.5

21.7 25889 -55.5 -87.5 1 0.01 295 35 650.2 650.3 650.2

21.0 26098 -55.4 -87.4 1 0.01 290 38 656.6 656.7 656.6

20.0 26410 -55.3 -87.3 1 0.01 295 39 666.2 666.3 666.2

18.0 27084 -54.0 -86.8 1 0.01 295 33 690.5 690.6 690.5

17.5 27265 -53.7 -86.7 1 0.01 697.1 697.3 697.1

Station information and sounding indices

Station identifier: YSWM

Station number: 94776

Observation time: 110725/0000

Station latitude: -32.80

Station longitude: 151.83

Station elevation: 8.0

Showalter index: 2.23

Lifted index: 5.44

LIFT computed using virtual temperature: 5.40

SWEAT index: 118.02

K index: 26.50

Cross totals index: 23.90

Vertical totals index: 28.90

Totals totals index: 52.80

Convective Available Potential Energy: 0.00

CAPE using virtual temperature: 0.00

Convective Inhibition: 0.00

CINS using virtual temperature: 0.00

Bulk Richardson Number: 0.00

Bulk Richardson Number using CAPV: 0.00

Temp [K] of the Lifted Condensation Level: 275.20

Pres [hPa] of the Lifted Condensation Level: 896.45

Mean mixed layer potential temperature: 283.95

Mean mixed layer mixing ratio: 5.00

1000 hPa to 500 hPa thickness: 5422.00

Precipitable water [mm] for entire sounding: 16.01

{refer to page one for photo}

To say temps and dew points would have remained consistent for the entire 24 hour period is a great stretch of the imagination though, but it does create doubt as to whether the 'trails in my pic were contrails. The 5 degree supersaturation window seems well and truly closed.

 

This was where we went off track. Maybe this will help re rail the discussion.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Slybacon

[Slybacon]

Pres Alt Temp Dew/p R/H

500.0 5580 -24.9 -34.9 39

451.0 6325 -29.5 -55.5 6

444.0 6435 -30.5 -56.1 6

400.0 7170 -36.9 -59.9 7

379.0 7539 -39.6 -61.2 8

356.0 7966 -42.7 -62.7 9

344.0 8196 -43.6 -65.2 7

300.0 9110 -47.3 -75.3 3

262.0 9996 -50.9 -80.9 2

250.0 10300 -51.3 -81.3 2

242.0 10512 -50.6 -81.6 1

218.0 11195 -48.5 -82.5 1

204.0 11630 -49.1 -83.1 1

200.0 11760 -49.3 -83.3 1

182.0 12374 -50.2 -83.9 1

166.0 12972 -51.1 -84.4 1

154.0 13460 -51.9 -84.9 1

150.0 13630 -52.9 -85.9 1

130.0 14541 -55.8 -87.8 1

113.0 15433 -58.7 -89.7 1

109.0 15659 -58.7 -89.7 1

100.0 16200 -58.7 -89.7 1

This is the data from the OP's day in question. I have copied everything from 100 to 500 hPa of air pressure that the Appleman chart covers which is also the range that normal aircraft fly at. Using this data I am unable to figure out a plausable reason for a Con Trail forming and persisting under these conditions in this area on this day. Forming yes, but persisting no. Maybe there was a small window of opportunity at differing times but this requires an assumption to be made on one half of the arguement.

Anyone have any ideas?

Edited July 27, 2011 by Slybacon

[The Dude]

...well, you could make the assumption it's a chemtrail, maybe.

Does anybody do soil samples or rain samples after a supposed chemtrail spraying? I know there are people in docos doing it but has anybody done it themselves?

Anyway, I'm always looking at the sky, looking to see if it's just about to fall on me, and I've been happy to not notice any persisting contrails/chemtrails for a while -although it has been overcast and raining a little- until today, a nice sunny day got covered by these horizon to horizon trails. Maybe there's a bit of an operation going on around Australia right now? Maybe a global operation timed well to coincide with the bad vibes of the latest terrorist activity and corporate/government scandals? I don't know. Conspiracy or no, for a nature loving hippy, to see these things covering the sky is pure evil.

Edited July 28, 2011 by The Dude

[synchromesh]

 

 

I haven't seen this one yet. It looks good.

[Sallubrious]

This is the data from the OP's day in question. I have copied everything from 100 to 500 hPa of air pressure that the Appleman chart covers which is also the range that normal aircraft fly at. Using this data I am unable to figure out a plausable reason for a Con Trail forming and persisting under these conditions in this area on this day. Forming yes, but persisting no. Maybe there was a small window of opportunity at differing times but this requires an assumption to be made on one half of the arguement.

Anyone have any ideas?

 

Thanks Sly, another opinion is always appreciated.

Because of the dew point depression over the entire range of altitudes used for commercial flight (and also well outside the normal altitude range) the air was way too dry for a contrail to persist.

People will be tiring of all this talk about 'trails so I'm happy to leave it at this and put my foil hat back on.

Lets just say we have a remarkable anomaly that can't be easily explained.

[Slybacon]

Very often the dew point temperature is nearly the same over a fairly large area and usually changes only slowly with time, especially when the dew point is in its normal range. This means, for example, that the dew point reported at Yakima airport in the early evening will likely be representative of much of the Yakima valley and will stay about the same or fall slightly during the night. When the air is very dry, with low dew point temperatures, there is often more variability and fluctuation in the dew point over the area. During these very dry cases, growers may need to look at several stations over a period of a few hours to assess a representative dew point for the area.

http://www.clearwest.com/research/Dewpoint-Temperature.htm

 

I have been trying to find some information about dew point fluctuation. I haven't found anything about fluctuation at high altitude and low pressure, but it does appear that the general consensus is that the dryer the air is the more fluctuation can occur over a sq distance. This could account for those dots you see in contrail and the sudden stops that occur like the spray has been turned off. Really need to find some more accurate dew point measurements (hourly) at altitude to have a clearer picture to compare too.

Dude> Unless there is basis for a chem trails existence then your results from soil testing would have to point to another source. Rain.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Slybacon

[Undergrounder]

I like SallyD and Sly's open-mindedness and willingness to check facts. Great to see for a change.

When presenting a view that doesn't fit the approved way of thinking like chemtrails the person with that viewpoint has to have enough scientific evidence to build a watertight court case, but any detractors just need to utter meaningless phrases like "tin foil hats" or "conspiracy theory" and that absolves them any need for even presenting a logical argument.

This is also true the other way around. Most conspiracy theorists and some skeptics are as bad as eachother... On the one side your calling people "conspiracy nuts" and "crackpot theorists", on the other side you're calling people "sheeple", the "blind masses" "putting their head in their sand". It is truly, truly rare that you get anyone who isn't close-minded, so it's nice to see some people actually debating facts. Ask yourself "What would it take for me to disbelieve this theory?" The close-minded people usually can't answer that question. They can't conceive of a situation in which they would concede that they could be wrong. They get to the point of making evidence fit their theory, instead of letting the evidence form their theory. They over-emphasise the evidence that fits, and challenge the evidence that doesn't. Most of them want to believe, underneath it all they don't really care about the 'truth', particularly if the truth is boring and makes them feel as insignificant as they really are.

And the evidence doesn't need to be a watertight court case at all, what you need to be able to do is rule out the competing, more obvious explanation. If you can do that, then the phenomenon becomes 'unexplained', and at the very least that's interesting and worth investigating and gathering further evidence. From there, you need to be able to find some evidence confirming your competing theory, at which point you would have something truly newsworthy.

For the record:

1 There are up to 10 flights per hour travelling north along the Sydney to Brisbane flight path flying at lower altitude than the regular commercial flights, dropping chemtrails that spread out and do not dissipate like normal contrails. Even if all the commercial carriers were to schedule Sydney to Brisbane flights so close (Unlikely) there would not be enough passengers to justify them being there.

You live on a major flightpath, there are all kinds of flights going between QLD, NSW and Victoria, as well as just about every international flight to Sydney comes from that way.

I would make a pretty certain prediction that all of these sightings of multiple con/chem trails occur in areas of the world that have busy flight paths, with planes flying at high (cruising) altitudes. I don't think you're going to find busy pictures of multiple contrails in Hobart, for instance. Or Dunedin, the South Pacific, Cape Town or the Cape of Good Hope. If someone can point me to a photo/video of multiple contrails in places like this, then THAT would be interesting.

2 The planes are unmarked. All commercial carriers are easily identifiable even from underneath.

The next time you see an unmarked plane, take a photo. That should be easy enough to show. Your photos so far don't show planes, and the con/chem trails coming out of them correspond to what I would imagine a high altitude, commercial plane making.

4 The planes appear to be well below the normal altitude where contrails form. Judged by observation of thousands of commercial flights and the relative size the planes appear at different altitudes.

You could be wrong about the altitude. The photos you show of contrails don't necessarily to me look like they're low flying aircraft..

[Undergrounder]

double post

Edited July 28, 2011 by Undergrounder

[Sallubrious]

You make some good points UG

The flight data the Sly was after showing registered flights would really help clear things up in regards to No. of flights, altitude etc, and the statement I made about there not being not being enough passengers to fill those flights was unfounded.

As for the altitude, well that has not been proven and the estimate I made was a hasty one.

Also for anyone reading this thread there has been a general theme that the Schmidt-Appleman chart is a reliable way to predict the formation of contrails. It is not and it tends to underpredict the formation of contrails.

The charts are outdated and there are newer models that are more accurate in predicting the formation of contrails with modern jet engines, the graph really needs to be plotted to the exhaust characteristics of each individual engine design . A modern jet engine exhausts far more water vapour to the air increasing the chance of contrails forming.

The Appleman doesn't take into consideration factors such as the plane ascending or descending either which can play a major role in contrail formation as an ascending plane is much more likely to produce a trail than a descending plane.

The conditions required for the trail to persist haven't changed though and that should be focused on more than the conditions for the trail to form once it has been established that the formation of a trail was likely.

[Slybacon]

15 years ago there were no chemtrails and they all dissipated at a reasonably fast rate, now they linger for hours.

 

There is NO doubt when you actually witness these events especially curved and spiral streams.

 

 

 

 

 

There is more video's posted here....Source

[∂an]

Someone obviously hasn't done their research...

 

True, I haven't researched contrails. But I doubt your an aeronautical engineer specialising in jet engine emissions so I don't think you have either. Presenting a youtube video as research material typifies internet conspiracy theories – they are largely based on pseudoscientific evidence collected from third parties. How can you or me or any lay-person give an opinion on what the difference between a contrail and a chemtrail when we haven't studied the physics and chemistry driving them?

If I believed that the Earth was being constantly being sprayed with chemicals for malevolent purposes I wouldn't be content with watching a couple of youtube videos about it. I would be signing up to study fluid dynamics, climatology and aeronautics to understand the phenomena properly, so I could reveal the conspiracy to the world.

As Terence Mckenna said, true weirdness doesn't require your belief to exist. I don't believe science is some metatheory that can describe all of reality, but in the case of physical phenomena like this you must use it to prove your case.

[synchromesh]

They are DVDs actually... Quasi-skepticism for the win!

[mescalito]

Ixnay on the returnay!

Recent photo's and consequential itching,hayfever symptoms(in winter?),headaches,low energy levels/mood

Left to right Horizon to Horizon.

That night sure as eggs clouds formed and we had rain.

Haven't seen one since and have had warm sunny clear days.

It's simple physics,besides being in the Refrigeration field for a long time and knowing the laws of gases/temps/pressure and after trading "smoking" for "Vaping,there is a difference

Edited August 4, 2011 by mescalito

[Slybacon]

Mesc,

Thanks for the photos. Anychance you could provide a date, and the nearest weather station. There is a lot of people with similar symptoms to what you describe, but the thread is not ready to jump that far yet.

[bℓσωηG]

 

[Sallubrious]

Circular flight paths can be planes in a holding pattern so that could explain the flightpath.

The trail forming below the cloud level and persisting is somewhat extraordinary though, as clouds form under similar conditions to persistent contrails ie where the conditions are right.

Below the level of the cloud is not really favourable for a cloud or a persistent contrail, but there are factors that can change that so without sounding data it's just speculation.

Cool vid though.

[synchromesh]

How do you explain the criss-cross trails then? Because last time I checked, airliners weren't meant to get that close to each other...

[Slybacon]

^^^ They are not ALL flying at the same time of course. So if the conditions for a contrail to persist are right and you live in an area where the air corridors transect then you will see criss cross patterning.

Flight paths enhanced image. There was a lot of persisting contrails on this day-

Edited August 5, 2011 by Slybacon

[synchromesh]

Some of them are.

[Slybacon]

Some of them are.

 

This may be true. This is what we are trying to accertain in this thread, to look at actuall witness accounts from people we know and trust to reveal the truth. So have you got some photos, time lapse preferable, with date and location. Then we can start disecting the truth from the lies ;)