DJs...... Musicians or Producers

[sethomopod]

I've been having discussions with several people on this subject... It seems to create some interesting viewpoints...

The question is:

Should a DJ be called a musician or a producer?

Maybe a secondary question: Should Turntables be considered a musical instrument or a manipulator of sound?

There is room for a grey area as well.. (Maybe DJs who write their own music then get it pressed on vinyl)

My own opinion (and it is just that) is that DJ's are Producers... They understand song structure, emotive force of phrasing, and certain aspects of composition.. But dont actually have theoretical knowledge to be able to write the pieces of music they manipulate themselves... Hence I believe a DJ isnt entitled to the moniker of 'Musician'..

In saying this, I dont believe one has any greater right to be listened to than the other.

It's only my opinion and like I said, it has caused some great debates in my house!!!

I know this may get ugly, so everyone respect everyone elses opinion!

Thoughts anyone?

[Quill]

Oooh could be a touchy subject Seth I like it.

I can see both sides of the argument have merit but I tend to think that DJs do have a degree of musicianship about them. Ever since King Tubby and Lee "Scratch" Perry started playin around with the idea of using the production room as an instrument DJs have been innovating and (arguably) improving their talent in using turntables samples etc.

I think one can use the sound manipulator as a musical instrument.

Also Seth if one applies your argument about sound manipulation to words, is WSB being an author when he employs the "Cut in" technique ?

[Rabaelthazar]

I tend to agree that DJing as in mixing records does not count as being a musician, however, a DJ who scratches is a percussionist of sorts, hence falling into the musician category.

Having said that, the two (being a DJ) and (being a musician) aren't mutually exclusive. A lot of mix DJs I know also write music or play an instrument. I used to DJ a bit when I was younger, and I loved it, but I never thought of it as creating music, only showing off my fabulous taste and record collection.

[Quill]

Good point. There are Djs that simply use another's music and then there are DJs who create new music.

PS I don't even really like DJ type music so ya cant call me biased

[paradox]

it totally depends.. i know a lot of dj's who simply mix tunes. pretty simple stuff, cleanly mixing one song into the next & a bit of beat matching, i wouldn't call them musicians or producers because they're not, they're disk jockeys.

then there are the people who use the turntables etc as a percussion instrument & if they can actually do that & pull it off, then yes i would call them musicians. then theres everything in between which is the gray area..

of course if a dj creates his own original music & presses it to vinyl (or burns whatever, if you create original music (& it's not complete unmusical shit) then you're a musician no? as for calling someone a producer, well thats different again, that can be a broad term..

i would by no means call a dj a producer unless they produce their own music (or someone elses) & then even if they do produce music, if their production skills totally suck then i definitely wouldn't call them a producer. like if someone was building a house out of bricks & just chucked all the bricks in a big pile with no skill involved then i wouldn't call them a brickie...

[ThunderIdeal]

pretty much what he said. there could be a point at which a mere DJ's use of effects or whatever during a set could be considered musical and i guess that would make them a musician of sorts, but no mixing one track into the next doesn't make you a musician.

i disagree on one point. if you produce crappy music, you are a producer, you're just a crappy producer. same if you're a musician that sucks, or a dj that sucks.

in years passed i was totally focused on rhythm and melody and playing technique, perhaps the more fundamental side of music, but now that i've opened up a lot more to music, i have infinitely more appreciate for textures and sounds, i can enjoy a song without enjoying its use of rhythm or tone.

i think there are grey areas but these days we can probably loosen our application of the word 'musician' quite a bit, but not so much that a sound technician (who manufactures sounds for hollywood etc) is a musician.

[alkatrope]

Yep previous two posts ptretty much exactly my thinking as well.

I think "DJ" here is too general a term. In the music scene I'm in, djing essentially involves dancing for 6 minutes bewteen mixing tracks.

Edited May 27, 2010 by alkatrope

[ThunderIdeal]

can't you also go for a stroll, smoke a billy, fetch a beer, have a chat?

mixing tracks is mixing tracks, it involves skill but isn't really musicianship.

and can't you be a dj even without mixing?

[Chiral]

Hmmmm touchy subject indeed....DJ's can become producers in that they have listened to soooooo much music that they begin subliminally to remember different phrases and cuts and are able to construct new tracks from them...some if good can write new stuff over the top in a sequencer therefore lending themselves more closely aligned to the moniker of producer/DJ.Many top producers have turned writers/producers and have become very talented...Goldie, Fatboyslim to name a couple of big ones.

There are the die hard producers musicians who can't consider DJ's who mix tracks and creating a new one as producing..it's just mixing and that's it, then there is someone like me, who doesn't DJ but has been writing/producing tracks from scratch for 20yrs, but isn't musically trained and can't read music very well but can play all the regulation chords on a synth/keyboard etc...still this type of producer uses some borrowed sounds and samples...usually single hits not phrases or 16 bar loops...and tweaks them so they sound different therefore re-inventing them and making them their own.

If you wanna know what a true producer/musician/writer/DJ is check out someone like BT or William Orbit...these guys can do it all and are truly masters of all the crafts.

[paradox]

some if good can write new stuff over the top in a sequencer therefore lending themselves more closely aligned to the moniker of producer/DJ.

There are the die hard producers musicians who can't consider DJ's who mix tracks and creating a new one as producing..

 

now i don't know why i'm in this cause i pretty well detest any kind of labeling of people altogether lol, but just to clarify something from my current perspective a bit..

a dj who, mixes tunes but also sequences melodies & drops samples etc as a part of a live show i wouldn't call a producer i'd call them a performance artist/musician..

i don't consider a dj mixing tracks & making new ones out of the mix to be a producer. i would call him a dj/musician. i just can't see how the terms dj & producer could ever be confused, producer i think is a pretty broad term but a disk jockey is something entirely different altogether. to lump dj's in with producers is broadening the term to a point it becomes meaningless imo.. a dj is just that, someone who spins the disks & picks the tunes, a dj/musician would be someone who mixes tunes but also makes completely new creative works through innovative use of turntables sequencers etc

a dj/producer i'd say is someone who mixes at parties but plays their own productions &/or the music of musicians they have produced..(playing recorded work not live instruments/sequencers)

anymore than that is just maybe amusing but pretty pointless semantics in my possibly lame but humble opinion

[Chiral]

Well sometimes someone who is excellent on a set of decks has the skills necessary to spin a record or CD a certain way into a sequencer and be able to capture said bit of audio...this is a skill I sadly lack but could well use as part of recording sounds into my sequencer for editing and creating new wacky samples from them...plus you capature the sound of vinyl and subtle shift/pitch and timing changes from the real live performance so to speak...the grab may only find it's self as a small contributing part of the track but none the less is part of it and the track wouldn't be the same without it or might sound lifeless if tried to conjure up said skills and sounds with a multitimbral sound module or crappy digital hybrid analog synth.

[sethomopod]

Some interesting views already...

Quill, re: WSB, Good point... I had to have a think about this.. Could be looked at like this...maybe....

The 'cut up' technique was inspired by and collaborated with Brion Gysin, a painter.. Burroughs even described it as a form of collage.

An application of one artistic method to another..(collage with words, but deeper) Which I cant think of an example of in DJ'ing.. Also, He only cut up his own words, and then used the cut up as a skeleton to write He still wrote original ideas inspired by his cut up.. You can see this in Naked Lunch, when you see the same phrases in a few consecutive pages but the phrases are totally independant..

I suppose it is a form of manipulation but he did then write original ideas from this...

Paradox; I also thought that this could become a battle of semantics with the term 'Producer'.. It was meant to be a loose(ish) term that described someone more in touch with arrangement than theoretical knowledge. But I have to disagree with you statement "i don't consider a dj mixing tracks & making new ones out of the mix to be a producer. i would call him a dj/musician"

This is my exact point. mixing tracks and making them into something "new", is definately NOT the/a mark of a musician. I think we may be on different wavelengths.. A producer directs the creative force to help fulfill the artistic potentials yes? Most do not write the music. This can be apllied to creating songs from samples and DJ'ing, Not writing the music, but using the sounds on hand and adding the personal touch through arrangement and tweaking with the multitude of studio gadgets. (Ha! the more money you have, the better you sound! Give me a gifted muso on an old beaten guitar anyday!) Hence Bands and producers having professional relationships built on that common artistic vision shared with the actual creators of the music.

Some of my thoughts....

Music is a language that excludes DJ's. You cant hand a DJ a piece of sheet music and expect to hear what is written... It is a language that can be transposed to any melodic instrument.. Nor can you transcribe a DJ's set and hand it to any other instrument to reproduce.. If you hear Eine Kleine Nachtmusik on any instrument, you know it's mozart.. This is impossible for a DJ of any kind. unless the DJ has it on vinyl

This is a major difference in my opinion..

Then there is theory and techniqual mastery... Like I said, Music is a language.. it was not created though.. More, discovered.. akin to Maths. and then represented on paper for a common reference point..Even if every instument had a different 'Language on paper', The mathmatical nature of music allows it to be transcribed accurately.(like translating hieroglyphs, Find the reference points) An octave would be a fine example here. 2:1. Just like maths, there are fundamental laws to music to achieve desired outcomes that just work to our ears.. Cadences are a good example when comparing a perfect to an interupted..It rings true in our ears no matter what key. To understand these fundamentals, you need years of teaching and practice... Across the whole spectrum of musical instruments, this applies.. but not to DJs.. A Dj does not need to understand the why, just two turntables and the how..

Now, a DJ who adds simple melodies over a track would be considered a fledging musician at best. Try this at home;

Find someone elses beat and bassline... hum or whistle along and find what sounds good to your ears (fundamentals), not understand why it sounds good, just that is does.. Now jump on a keyboard for a few hours and find the notes you hummed/whistled.. anyone with a weeks spare time could knock this up.. are they a musician? No.. To understand harmony, intervals,counterpoint, keys, transposition, synchopation, etc, is to understand thoretical music, which I believe DJ's with these attributes would be a severe minority. I dare say only the most succesful of them..

Dont get me wrong, Some dj's are incredibly gifted rhythmically.. DJ Dexter blew my mind in the Tecnics world championships!!

I have more to say but I gotta crash... Work'n'all.....

Remember my first post..... I am merely opening a debate..My opinion is only just that... I firmly believe that if you connect on a deep level with ANY type of music...Those feelings felt are sacred..

More soon...

ps... all the DJ's out there... Dont hate the playa!

[sapito]

*disclaimer - I listen to almost no music that involves these elements. metal FTW

but the thing I dont get is people say djs are just joining sections of preexisting music/sounds together so therefore are not musicians.

But my view is that even a guitar or piano you are still mixing a bunch of preexisting sounds together. Just the sounds are much smaller in length. But still using the guitar as an example, if you play an open top string tuned to E you will get an 'E' note. I dont see who thats difference from pressing a button on a computer or whatver and getting a 'dugugugug' sound. Both situation the player knows by pressing said button/fret that a certain noise will result and are just mixing that already known knowledge together

No idea if that makes sense to others

[nabraxas]

Music is a language that excludes DJ's. You cant hand a DJ a piece of sheet music and expect to hear what is written... It is a language that can be transposed to any melodic instrument.. Nor can you transcribe a DJ's set and hand it to any other instrument to reproduce.. If you hear Eine Kleine Nachtmusik on any instrument, you know it's mozart.. This is impossible for a DJ of any kind. unless the DJ has it on vinyl

This is a major difference in my opinion..

imho there's a difference between someone who can simply read music & play it, & a true musician. Being able to reproduce the notes from a page doesn't make a musician it's being able to understand the emotions behind the notes & being able to communicate your interpretation ov those emotions.

is someone who plays 3rd trumpet in a symphony orchestra a musician just because they turn up, play the notes on the page & then go home?, & a Dj who spends every week carefully crafting together a few hours worth of seamless mixing & matching not?

great music is all about emotion & great Dj's can be considered musicians because not only are they able to understand & utalise phrasing, melody, syncopation & percussion but they are able to weave them together to create an emotional response that takes the audience on a journey through the set.

Edited May 27, 2010 by nabraxas

[Chiral]

great music is all about emotion & great Dj's can be considered musicians because not only are they able to understand & utalise phrasing, melody, syncopation & percussion but they are able to weave them together to create an emotional response that takes the audience on a journey through the set.

 

I disagree all I agree the final outcome is one of a musical performance...but, I'm still in favor of accepting that the DJ is sound sculture or architect or it's simply a performance...as his levels or mechanisms of action are not about musical notation as such. There are however DJ's that can spin a small segment or sound off vinyl that is very small and get it sound like a synth by scratching it, releasing it back and slowing it down, speeding up etc..and this tiny remnant of audio now takes on a life or tone of it's own.

Is someone playing a theremin a musician..?

I like when people say "oh fuck he just twiddles knobs on his synth and press's a button on a computer...that's not music" fuck that is so short sighted...it's a medium for capturing the sound and a creative tool to shape and polish completed tracks of music...Beatles anyone..tape machines etc...I guess pressing play or record on those in Abbey road was very lame and not music also.

For me a musician is someone who can pick up an instrument they are trained on, and can play it with no guidance or reading from a script...freeflowing jamming that comes from the heart. Producers capture and edit, add too and enhance the music, DJ's play it in a format that is acceptable to the ears of masses who wish to dance and nod heads for extremely long periods of time.

[nabraxas]

I'm still in favor of accepting that the DJ is sound sculture or architect

isn't any composer a sound sculptor or architect?

[sethomopod]

is someone who plays 3rd trumpet in a symphony orchestra a musician just because they turn up, play the notes on the page & then go home?, & a Dj who spends every week carefully crafting together a few hours worth of seamless mixing & matching not?

 

The person who plays 3rd trumpet in an orchestra is considered a musician, Not because "they turn up and play the notes on the page" That person is a musician beacuse of the years of practice and study BEFORE they are even given a chance to "turn up and play the notes".. of which they have to prove themselves..

I can assure you that a person on 3rd trumpet in an orchestra will have a damn sight more knowledge about music than your said DJ.

[sethomopod]

isn't any composer a sound sculptor or architect?

 

Again, I think you may be overlooking the work done previously.. A composer needs alot of of theoretical knowledge to be able to compose anything.. Think of Beethoven in his later years... He understood thoery enough to not even need to hear the sounds... He knew they worked..

[nabraxas]

I can assure you that a person on 3rd trumpet in an orchestra will have a damn sight more knowledge about music than your said DJ.

You can't assume that.

And can "being" a musician be retrospective?...i mean if that 3rd trumpet has changed jobs & is now a librarian would he still be a musician?

If all he's doing now is following the conductors lead & playing the notes from the page how would he be more ov a musician than a top Dj or someone playing & writing for a band who learned to play 'by ear'?

In a sense you've answered your own question anyway:

There is room for a grey area as well..

there can be no excluded middle because there's always that grey area.

Some but not all Djs can be thought ov as musicians, some but not all djs can be thought ov as producers & some but not all DJs can be thought ov as both.

Should Turntables be considered a musical instrument or a manipulator of sound?

Isn't any musical instrument simply a manipulator ov sound?

[nabraxas]

A composer needs alot of of theoretical knowledge to be able to compose anything..

What about all the early jazz composers who had no formal training but were able to improvise works ov great depth & beauty because they played from their hearts?

Maybe the difference should be can they be considered as artists rather than musicians?

[Zen Peddler]

It depends on the situation but id say neither.

[sethomopod]

You can't assume that.

And can "being" a musician be retrospective?...i mean if that 3rd trumpet has changed jobs & is now a librarian would he still be a musician?

If all he's doing now is following the conductors lead & playing the notes from the page how would he be more ov a musician than a top Dj or someone playing & writing for a band who learned to play 'by ear'?

Isn't any musical instrument simply a manipulator ov sound?

 

well i belive I can at least make an educated guess about a classicly trained trumpet player in 3rd position having more theoretical knowledge than a dj.. I mean c'mon man.... Really?

Your question about retrospective musicians, while I understand your point, I fail to see it's relevence pertaining to this debate... Aswell as missing my whole point about the knolwedge and training required BEFORE "following the conductors lead and playing notes from the page"

while we are comparing, can you give an example of a DJ who can merely follow a conductor and play the note on the page?

I believe there is a vast difference between the creation of sound and the manipulation of sound..

What about all the early jazz composers who had no formal training but were able to improvise works ov great depth & beauty because they played from their hearts?

Maybe the difference should be can they be considered as artists rather than musicians?

 

I'm glad you bought up jazz... Which i believe to be one of the top 3 musical disciplines

do you honestly think those musicians just picked up an instrument and blew....

This highlights my point about the transpositional nature of music.. They were learning the same language in a different way.. They knew exactly what notes (even without knowing the names of notes) created concordance and discordance (conflict and resolution) they were not merely blowing from the heart.. But incorporating tremendous musical intuition with technique and soul. They knew the fundamentals! Either worked it out for themselves or otherwise, but they knew their notes man...

[sethomopod]

Maybe the difference should be can they be considered as artists rather than musicians?

 

This is really interesting nabraxas... this has me thinking....

Sonic artists?.......mmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

[Evil Genius]

Hi Seth, i´ve been a professional DJ for about 10 years. But being a producer is something totally diffrent for me. Two completely diffrent pair of shoes. But sure, there are also some DJ´s who can produce. Thats when the real magic happens. Many DJ´s i know couldnt produce a large pile in the bowl. But that also has a lot to do with the fact that many kids call themselves DJ´s without even knowing what that really is. Playing a CD doesnt make someone a DJ. We have some very cool Musicians, Artists, Producers and former DJ´s around here. Very experienced people can often do both because they did that shit for years. But thats usually not the norm. bye Eg

Edited May 28, 2010 by Evil Genius

[nabraxas]

can you give an example of a DJ who can merely follow a conductor and play the note on the page?

Mica Levi, known by her stage name Micachu studied violin, viola and composition at the Purcell School before being offered a scholarship to attend the Guildhall School of Music and Drama to study composition. Levi performed as a DJ and MC around the UK garage and grime scene in London, and released a mixtape titled Filthy Friends

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