Are you a believer?

[mutant]

Thanks a lot folias for sincere post, that's what I am fishing for ;)

Now we're talking

For many of us it is not at all a matter of belief.

Take 5 grams of dried mushrooms every week for two years and THEN tell me that spirits and other worlds are not real.

I can find many terms for what you describe, but I really cannot think of anything that won't be taken as derogatory. If you r greatest point is admitting that, then it is exactly the same as my point. This kind of psychedic drug abuse sure leads one to be a believer, shaman, whatever, or go nuts, messiah, I don't know what exactly, and it depends on the person for sure, but it feels so remote and not-calling for me. So you're now telling me I have to take 5 grams per week for 2 years to see them ?!?!?!??!?!

How could someone with such abuse history not see stuff, 'funny' stuff, as I humourously put it in the poll?

But in any case, if he didn't believe, and should I say obsess over psychs, why would one take those powerful substances so often?

Thing is I am convinved that this kind of abuse, can only be something other than abuse in few very special people. Thing is people who abuse psychs so extremely are very prone to every kind of danger associated with drugs, mostly of psychiatric nature.

Almost ALL of the people who really go the distance with psychedelics accept the existence of other realities and beings apart from this reality and the beings that exist in this one!

yep, so are those who thumbprint [initiate] themselves. They are people who are determined to live in a special way determined by their use and/or past experience. But they are very special people, and if they're dosing 5gr/week for 2 years they won't last long anyway!

But you didn't mention those who loose their minds in the process, nor those who are forced to quit their use in the process. Also, your point says nothing about what kind of people are those who will walk the whole road, but I will come back at that later.

There are no shamans who deny the existence of other beings or realities that I am aware of.

Maybe, especially as far as classic psychs are concerned, but who gives a fuck about shamans? What role do shamans play in our life - well forget about this, many of you would like to become/be regarded as such, admire them etc, not unlike what Castaneda hoped to be - what about the impact shamans play in MY life? Hmmmm almost none, except from the fact that due to the ethnobotany and related fields, we get to know a totally different philosophy, simple societies organised differently, lots to learn from them, where shamans are the mediums/priests to the godly and spiritual, anyways, through ethnobotany we also get to know their knowledge of using plant drugs and much more. The social structure of such societies has much to say about humans and societies in general. But I'm getting off topic...

It took me a long time and many, many repeat encounters to accept the existence of this otherworldly material... it just goes against anything we have been brought up to accept or conditioned to believe in.

I don't know what exactly you mean by saying we have been conditioned to act/accept/believe stuff in a conditional way, but there is a certain way natural life goes, natural history documentaries depict this reality. Plus, psychedelic brainstorming and overuse is a conditioning itself, using too much psychedelics, let alone advertising this kind of use derives from a permanently 'psychedelized' point of view that already accepts visions as real reality and uneasily and illogically dismisses realism, which is the natural way of things, the real deal, the subjective reality of most people and the objective reality we all use for reference.

===========

HM>>>>

expereiences do not have to be tryptamine mutey. you can obtain very far out adventures on san pedro with the right set, setting and dosage (eyes closed, dark room, silence etc). LSD in my opinion does not 'get you there' maybe because it is not natural and therefore cannot connect you to the spirit world like other natural psychedelics can (mescaline, mushrooms, dmt). It sure works in other ways but as far as working with spirits I do not believe LSD to a be useful tool and it's a tryptamine anyway so quit your tryptamine chauvenism bullshit.

I had not thought about tryptamine chauvinism, I was only speaking about psychedelic theism, in which you perfectly fit man, until tst mentioned his own term, tryptamine chauvinism, very smart term actually, which I embraced naturally and which represents perfectly McKennas messiah complex and football fan mentality.

And oh, lsd is no tryptamine, but I yeah, I wouldn't take lsd nowadays, when so many natural psychs are available, for a variety

I'm sure you had a great time on your microdot and your itsy bitsy mushroom dose but lets not confuse these as experiences that would allow you to make contact with spirits.

Actually the microdot was quite a dose, a bliss till 3.00, a disaster after 3.00+, totally wrong setting, very paranoid trip, much pot, surely played a part. Other than that, your failure to contact the alien mantis or feel at ease with tham at that dark trip doesn't show much communication ability with the spirits/entities pretty much in the same vein you show inability in discussing with someone with diffent worldview and path of life.

So there are good entities and bad entities?? Are they at war with each other. Have someone see them simultaneously in the same vision? Why don't you talk about this place, if it's so real? Fuck, even if it's not real, we might get somewhere if you weren't so defensive. Lets hear the experts, what have you learnt about that other world?

thats our thesis as well. the difference is (and it's got nothing to do with psychedelic theism or other terms you've coined yourself) we have experiences. and you haven't. case closed.

no mate, as far as I am concerned, case is closed when I decide this. I am an atheist. You're a parrot. Parrots don't argue and they sure are in no position to determine if cases are closed.

Believers, theists are prone to see funny stuff when on psychs and take them as message from god. Atheists not so... PLus your experience is useless outside your sect/religion. Useless in real life. In fact it's useless within your religion too, except from being helpful in the same vain football fanatics worship their football team and bond together while beating the opposite team's fans.

i would love it if this thread had more people talking about their beiefs, experiences, doubts etc so we could maybe even draw some conclusions from the data collected rather than just the same round and round shitty battles with mutey.

i'm sure lots of people have got far out stories to tell. please share them.

yeah, please share them, but also tell us what you learnt from this, what is the benefit of this in your lives, or even, heck, be honest and admit it is your religious/spiritual path and admit you enjoy this grandiose effect regardless if its real or creation of the mind.

and oh, you're the one doing circles, I am seeing more and more input from others, absolutely NONE from you. So irregardless if you don't admit it the discussion is evolving even if you pretend to be missing all the points and sound like a broken taperecorder.

Incognito>>>

you took a ridiculous dose and believed?? lol. Cool. That's what ridiculous doses do! Thanks for this one as well, really adds to my points. Was it a pleasant trip? You didn't tell us why you stopped using psychs though...

Finally

Rabalthazar>>>>

and everyone, [HM might think that people reporting "i really saw them, they're real' would add something to the conversation] but:

please understand that trip reports mean nothing to me without me knowing a range of facts about the individual. Don't you get it? Trip reports mean nothing. Now a trip report of a guy I know stuff about, even over the net, is really interesting. There are thousands of people reportiong, often braggin about the stuff they saw. Fuck this, this is not even useful as anecdotal data. Of course you saw them, why the hell would you believe in something you didn't see??

What's the use of reading reports knowing nothing about the man in question...

The main gist of this is that he had no pre-conceived ideas going in to his explorations, but came out with experiences very similar to the thousands of other people who've ventured down this path. Take from that what you will.

alright I get it. but mckenna was not the only guy that wrote about psychedelics. Castaneda did too. You want to imply your friend didn't have expectations of tripping far out, and seeing wild things? Paradise is different from person to person, so as expectations of the other, your report is not different [or identical] in that matter,

Entheogens = that which created the experience of god within.

and you know, people see the other etc while on dissociatives too. Psychedelics create religious feeling of apocalyptical epiphanies in the right setting. That's what you're all experiencing, giving it the colour theme that derives from within each one of you. That's my thesis.

I wonder what an atheists visions on big dose would be, now that's something really interesting. I sense it might be more hardcore for me, an atheist

PS: I have asked this questions, and like many many others you didn't dare to answer:

*why do you insist on my taking a big dose??

~~~ because you'd love to see me converted ;)

[incognito]

you dont go to the carnival to ride on the merry-go-round ;)

i havent stopped using psychs. very infrequently now like VERY. and i will only do in a setting i find myself comfortable in. i.e camping with likeminded folk.

i stopped using frequently as i felt id pushed the envelope far enough, and had gained relative insight into myself and the world around me to be of practical use for me.

so yeah sorry for the fib.

pleasant? i wouldnt say that at all. but the after effects, on my own mental health, where astonishing.

Edited May 26, 2010 by incognito

[holymountain]

But you didn't mention those who loose their minds in the process,

No wonder you 'true visionaries' can't make up new language, you haven't even mastered the old one.

 

it's lose not loose.

Edited May 27, 2010 by holymountain

[sapito]

its unbelievable how childish this is getting. going back through posts to find spelling mistakes quality stuff guys

Why are people so persistent on being right? Does it really matter if someone thinks your beliefs are wrong? Seems to be people need their ego stroked so they can rest their head at night knowing that they won, that they are right.

[Psiloman]

its unbelievable how childish this is getting. going back through posts to find spelling mistakes quality stuff guys

Why are people so persistent on being right? Does it really matter if someone thinks your beliefs are wrong? Seems to be people need their ego stroked so they can rest their head at night knowing that they won, that they are right.

 

Heh, thats the history of human species in a nutshell. No wonder we expect "changes","revolutions" and whatnot to come almost magically out of the blue as if its always someone elses task/burden/responsibility to "change",to "wisen up" as if we have "figured it out" or "have nothing to change since we ...approach perfection" (well few will actually claim they are perfect, though most people will act as if they were perfect). When we start being good at self-control and self-allocation or at least trying to be ,by starting foremostly changing ourselves first then things could become more interesting.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Psiloman

[holymountain]

yes very childish indeed. my only excuse is that mutant started it (what a childish excuse!) and i felt obliged to point out that he hasn't mastered the language either. you know the old saying 'never get into an argument with an idiot. onlookers won't know the difference'

otherwise...it's really good to hear some people's reports. it takes some courage to write up experiences. especially when they are so far out that it's easy to feel like you might be laughed at or have people try and cram their explanations and rational reductions down your throat. it's important that we keep mapping out this territory, sharing experiences and not being afraid to talk about these things. thats the only way we are ever going to get any conclusions (if there are any).

incog...i'm reading a book at the moment called 'the god hypothesis' which is about abudctions etc...your story contains many, many elements that match those of abductees. its uncanny. thanks for sharing. i'd be happy to lend you the book when i'm done if you'd like to read more about it.

So there are good entities and bad entities?? Are they at war with each other. Have someone see them simultaneously in the same vision? Why don't you talk about this place, if it's so real?

yes good and bad. yes, sometimes in the same visisons. these places have been talked about many times in many posts and also many, many, many books.

I wonder what an atheists visions on big dose would be, now that's something really interesting. I sense it might be more hardcore for me, an atheist

quit wondering and have a go! i don't think it would be any more hardcore because you are an atheist. i sense most of us were atheists before we had encounters.

PS: I have asked this questions, and like many many others you didn't dare to answer:

*why do you insist on my taking a big dose??

~~~ because you'd love to see me converted ;)

no. because we'd love to hear your INFORMED opinion on these matters.

Edited May 27, 2010 by holymountain

[Rabaelthazar]

alright I get it. but mckenna was not the only guy that wrote about psychedelics. Castaneda did too. You want to imply your friend didn't have expectations of tripping far out, and seeing wild things? Paradise is different from person to person, so as expectations of the other, your report is not different [or identical] in that matter,

 

I think you've missed the point of my post, Mutant. My foaf had a lot of experience with psychedelics prior to trying spice but had read no psychedelic literature nor been told about the "beings". Yet, he encountered them. From what I've read of your posts, you seem to imply that people who encounter these "beings" only do so because they've been told that they will. Well, here's someone offering you proof to discount that notion. If you feel my experiences (and the experiences of others on this forum) are worthless to you because you don't know me (them) personally either:

a ) send me a pm and ask me the questions you need to be able to integrate my experience to your worldview; or

b ) stop asking for people's opinions (may I remind you that you started this poll?)

I wonder what an atheists visions on big dose would be, now that's something really interesting. I sense it might be more hardcore for me, an atheist

 

Mutant, before psychedelics I was an atheist, since, I'm agnostic. Still not a believer, but at least open to the possibility.

PS: I have asked this questions, and like many many others you didn't dare to answer:

*why do you insist on my taking a big dose??

~~~ because you'd love to see me converted ;)

 

I don't think high dose psychedelic experiences are necessary for everyone. I had a large group of friends who used LSD, mushrooms, mescaline etc... Of that group, only my foaf and one of his friends went on to explore spice and only my foaf really explored the high doses and aya. For him it was the natural peak of his explorations and after his experiences put psychedelic use on the shelf to be brought out only occasionally for healing purposes (oh, ok, and the very occassional recreational use). I have a lot of respect for my friends who didn't venture into the high dose realm and I accept that their experiences are as meaningful to them as mine were to me.

If your friend is happy with the doses he is taking, then that's great. At the end of the day, we are all different and I respect your choice to explore psychedelics in your way. As other people have mentioned though, there are certain things that can only be experienced at higher doses. If you don't feel the need to go there, then don't, but be aware that there is a level of psychedelia that you will not be able to speak on as an expert.

Peace, I think you're a good guy.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Rabaelthazar

[incognito]

quit wondering and have a go! i don't think it would be any more hardcore because you are an atheist. i sense most of us were atheists before we had encounters thats been my point all along.

no. because we'd love to hear your INFORMED opinion on these matters

BINGO! thats my own opinion on this thread. I certainly wont continue any further discussion. its just getting more and more like a tug-of-war. and i certainly aint tryin to convince mute of anything more than, if ur wondering, or interested- go there!!!

[mutant]

Rabaelthazar>>>

I did not miss your point , my more dismissive comments are not adressed to those who have encountered spirits, but to those who I have encountered wall discussing with ;) [you know who you are, and honestly, HM, I think you have reached your personal low with this cluster of discussions with me]

Raba I will send you a PM asking the personalised story, without which reports are pretty useless, at least for onjectively approaching these spaces. In other words, understanding the spaces without understanding the person experiencing them is useless in my worldview, unless you, like obessed believers a la McKenna think this is a definite, global thing, and high doses are as easy as taking breakfast, so 5 or 7grams of dried psilos will convert all naysayers to baffled folks who just encountered the other....

Collecting reports that seem similar on the other hand is good for 'proving' that 'the other' exists and advertising the religion to other people prone to such beliefs.

From what I've read of your posts, you seem to imply that people who encounter these "beings" only do so because they've been told that they will.

that too, but not only that, that is the obvious rational thing anyone with the minimal knowledge for psychedelics would think. You doubt this is happening all the time in psychedelic communities? that is, expectations co-form the nature and content of an experience, at least for some people prone to suggestion?

Other than that it's pretty obvious people don't see the same space, nor the same beings. Even more interestingly your short friends report doesn't concentrate at all at the beings, but at what was seen. See the difference?

Maybe the beings are not so much of importance for you, but something like Dude said, like our brain might need to reflect on something while perceiving such intense stimulus, something like that might have happened when the first hominids ate psychedelics and the first religions started forming as a result of epiphanies and apocalypsies guided by 'beings'.

Apocalyptic trips might have a narrator or guide, or not. I am saying people might personify the narrator needed so as such an exeprience can be experienced, interpreted in some way by our little minds.

I am saying that that's what psychedelics do : they create gods in the head, spirits, religions. Take a high enough dose, and you will see them, or become temporarily or permanently crazy. When taking more and more psychedelics, the limits between crazy and healthy view become blurred.

But yeah, then again, many people into psychs are fscinated with aliens, not because of McKenna probabaly, so they see them in high doses. Pretty normal.

Thanks a lot for showing what a discussion is like and remember I never doubted this:

there are certain things that can only be experienced at higher doses

thanks a lot for this one too:

I have a lot of respect for my friends who didn't venture into the high dose realm and I accept that their experiences are as meaningful to them as mine were to me.

[holymountain]

[you know who you are, and honestly, HM, I think you have reached your personal low with this cluster of discussions with me]

what can i say? you bring out the worst in me.

Other than that it's pretty obvious people don't see the same space, nor the same beings.

i disagree. whilst people may not have the 'exact' same experience there is a general consensus of visiting similar places and encounteres with similar beings e.g the dmt 'dome', the 'elves' etc. keep in mind we are talking about things that are by definition ineffable. hard to describe because they are so removed from our everyday 'reality'. read enough trip reports, read the books by Grof, Strassman, Shannon, RAW etc and you will find that the data suggests that there are common elements between experiences. it also suggests that these experiences are replicable and repeatable. these elements also often extend to similarities between abduction experiences and near death experiences that people have reported and which have been catalouged in hundreds of books on those respective subjects.

it is possible to have these types of experiences and encounter beings without ingesting anything.

do you think that fact proves their existence or disproves it?

what do you make of the idea that people who have near death experiences report similar visions as those that have had DMT?

that is the obvious rational thing anyone with the minimal knowledge for psychedelics would think

you are spot on with that one mutey.

Edited May 27, 2010 by holymountain

[Chiral]

I am saying that that's what psychedelics do : they create gods in the head, spirits, religions. Take a high enough dose, and you will see them, or become temporarily or permanently crazy. When taking more and more psychedelics, the limits between crazy and healthy view become blurred.

But yeah, then again, many people into psychs are fscinated with aliens, not because of McKenna probabaly, so they see them in high doses. Pretty normal.

 

Your hypothesis for this state of "craziness" is based on what physiological data Mutant...?

And I'd like an explanation and correlative data that outlines what a "healthy mind" is please...that'd be super.

My mother has never drugs in her whole life, hell she gets high on the caffeine in tea FFS, she has seen entities and ghosts and strange ethereal beings, she is a master of what I call "intangible soft core witchcraft" sessions with her on a Ouija board have left me freaked out more than any acid trip maaaaaan...she is so in touch with other worlds she often asks spirits to come and join us in the room we may be sitting and then proceeds to ask them questions and gets them to move shit ...seriously...my ex wife was so freaked out by her that she left the house and sat in the car outside and refused to come back in until my mum stop messing with this shit.

When I was young I was riding my bike along a street in my home town with a mate, we were about 13yrs old...just zig zagging and doing wheelies etc...we came up to this tree on the side of the footpath and noticed an elderly aboriginal woman just sitting under the tree looking a bit forlorn and lost...upon closer inspection she was indeed translucent to some extent...we looked at each other and felt a strange feeling unlike anything I've felt before...we rode up the street a little ways then stopped and looked back at her to make comments...she was not there anymore...the curse words and screaming from our mouths was enuff to get this elderly gentleman who was watering his garden to wave the hose pipe at us in disgust...we didn't care we just wanted to get away from there.

later that day when we hooked up with some of our aboriginal friends to play pinball at the amusement arcade we told them what we saw...they apparently knew of her and said she is an old local spirit who refuses to leave and torments other aboriginals up on the mission sometimes...they didn't want to talk about her again and became very cold and sort of scared.

Mutant you are really difficult to have an in depth discussion with sometimes, perhaps it's language barriers or sumthin, maybe you take ssri's and don't trip properly who knows, but your view on users is and always seems condescending and derogatory to me, there is a sense of closed mindedness sometimes...my experiences have shaped me in ways I have accepted as my line of walk...this path I take is mine and no regrets or badgery from skeptics will ever change that...I once worked with a young greek guy who was a drummer and he came in as a session muso for some live DnB recordings I was doing, his view on psychedelics and mdma was very similar to yours from memory...I told him I didn't need him anymore when he told me that he would take pills on the weekends and go down the main drag of the city looking for fights with other like minded smooth intellectuals as himself....I never understood this and still don't.

time for work ciao.

[Chiral]

oh and also before I go...I think most humans get caught up in the trap of.."well if it can't be replicated again then it's not real...it gets classified as unknown...being repetitive creatures who love routine and schedules we pretty much won't accept anything as "real" until it can be replicated over and over.

If a UFO hovered above the waters of Sydney harbor one day for 5 seconds and thousands saw it, the rest of us that didn't see it would be skeptical and be instant disbelievers...if that UFO came back every half hour and did the same trick for 6 months we would all be like.."oh yeah I've seen that it's old news"...prolly get bored with it and get the council or Sydney waterways to ask it to move along and do it's dance somewhere else or it will cop a fine.

Experiences are coming at us at such a terrific speed continuously that we never take the time to absorb each one, rather move on faster and faster to the next thing in fear of being left behind or something.

I have seen some strange stuff and nearly died 3 times, some have been sober some have been whilst under the influence of a psychoactive, but they are all part of the time line of experiences I'm walking into...and so are yours.

[Psiloman]

Defining "mental health" is a rather difficult issue: While the DSM manual (the one diagnosis of mental health problems is supposed to be based on) has some rather interesting guidelines i personally think that what happens many times is "overdiagnosis" and "syndromisation/disorderification" of almost everything.

Lemme explain the above a bit : For a diagnosis to be made DSM has a list of criteria for each categorisation that X number of them or more must be co-exhibited for a span of months (i.e be persisting)plus also -and here is the very very important part- causing also distress to the individual and interfere with his/her way of living. In other words, what ever it is first and foremost you must SUFFER (in the literal meaning) from it so as to seek help and ONLY THEN a diagnosis may be called for : notable exeptions of course if the individual is way too disruptive for society (love it or hate it) as we know it . For example one might feel dandy fine and great going around skinning people and making masks out of their skins because "the chicken told him to do so", still this person could be diagnosed with something although he /she as mentioned before feels "suuuuper!" about it. Also one of the interesting criteria of DSM that shows how sometimes mental health is "a matter of transpersonal agreement" is what constitutes "abnormal/weird belief" (some tests have questions trying to probe if one has weird beliefs) : It must fall out of cultural context. For example for a native in Africa in a tribe it might be rather normal to believe that "you can really chat around with dead realitives and ancestors in your dreams" whereas if you feverisly support that belief in a European country people might consider it weird belief.

Now, psychiatrists do not adhere so much to DSM or else diagnosis would be much less. Greece is one country that in contrast to what i see online about USA (never been there), you will not see around the majority of the kids being prescribed ADD/ADHD medication -being hyperactive as a child and being more interested to play rather school is still considered part of growing up- and you will not see everyone who feels a bit down being prescribed SSRIs -its considere quite normal as well to have the blues sometimes ,especially if things go shitty!-. From online forums i get the idea that in USA and in other countries psychiatric practice is actually a malpractice since they overdiagnose and over-pigeonhole people with syndromes that they NEED to be under medication. Not many young people take SSRI in Greece and medicine like Adderal (ADD medication) are almost unheard of , which i consider it a rather healthy stance ;)

Keep in mind that "mental health" like other even more quantifiable markers (hmmm think blood markers for diabetes) is not a case of "IS/IS NOT" duality : It follows more or less a normal distribution, people can come in many many many amazing weird or blant flavors and not be "sick" or "crazy".For me mental health is not even about fullfiling DSM criteria, they were made as waypoints ,as "helpfull hints" not as an ultimate gospel. Its the overal standing of a person that for me would determine his/her stability/instability.

What do i think about mental health? Hmmm...I am expanding it further ,in a way : its not even the weird belief enough to call someone crazy, what matters for me is what the person DOES with this belief, how he/she BEHAVES which in most of the times,and if he/she can fit in societal norms if he/she chooses it or if it is unachievable for him/her.

For example its quite normal for a "western" person to believe that a guy was crucified some 2000 years ago and then popped up from the grave to save us all. Its not that normal to believe that aliens have implanted him with a mind control device or that he/she(!!) can talk to his/hers(!!) penis having a

.Well, next time you talk to it fellow, say i said hello, its all good! Still , its what you do with the belief!!! I would consider the second person "operatively normal/ mentally healthy" if he/she could live life happily and could fit in society if he/she wanted to fit it (everyone wants to fit in ,to has a place in society, i am not talking about assimilation, i talk about being able to live without having to be come a hermit).On the other hand i wouldnt consider healthy -even if his/her beliefs are "normal"- the first person described if he/she suffers/cant cope seeing everywhere "demonic influence" ,if he/she gets paranoid ,if his/her beliefs interfere with everyday life in a way that the person could much rather do without,in other words if the beliefs actually stall the person or cause suffering or if the person is way out of line (the "made masks out of their skins" half-tongue-in-cheek senario).

So for me ,its not what you believe in : its how behave and feel. But take into account that sometimes the person might not see if he/she is going downhill: spiraling down or loosing your marbles can feel "suuuper!",only to come later back to bite you on your ass. I know people that during their psychotic break felt "Super!" ,well they felt like Gods! But to an external observer the person was not alright : he/she was putting self in danger for example thinking he/she is invunerable (people can die from falls,bullets ,speeding trains no matter what they believe in), he/she was being paranoid of other people motives and saw danger where there was none to be found etc. I also know people not in a psychotic break but in a state where they externalised their beliefs in a way...lets say on the far ends of the normal distribution curve, in a way that in the longterm hurt them : For example i know a person i was talking about for psychoactives and when we met you could see the person flipped .He was convinced i was a govermental agent (im quite young for being one) and was talking in riddles trying to confuse me, was looking panickly around him,was trying to "uncover" me in a rather..pointless way that even if i was i wouldnt be uncovered, generally the person was still looking for his marbles ;). Also his modus operanti was that "since plant teachers are spirits its good to be in constant contact with them" ,meaning in practice that he imbided far too often in substances and even he himself concluded that after every binge of his he ended up in hospital (sometimes poisoned),in the looney bin or beaten up by police because he displayed the most inappropriate behaviour the most inappropriate time in front of the most inappropriate people! His binge stories always followed this pattern, and since he could report it means that he could notice it, but still continued doing so! And guess what : others -even his familiy- consider him quite of a nutjob in general,since even if he wants to operate within this society he fucks up way too often due to his "putting in practice" his beliefs. Even if we were not living in an organised society this person i think would still have basic problems of surviving. So ,is this person a crazy or not? If he is not why isnt he? What more would take for this person to be labeled as "off the wall"? Oh and by the way? This person is NOT happy, and thats what he claims for himself its not my "conclusion" or "idea".

A more productive question though would be if practically people with "weird beliefs" tend to be more in the "crazy" category than people with no weird beliefs, if for example the camp of "spirit believers" has more wackos in its ranks compared to the camp of "non believers". I do not know, although sometimes i see as a pattern that people that tend to lose it sport weird beliefs ,especially if psychoactives are involved.I am not saying that the belief is doing it ,but it seems quite often as a "companion symptom" to whatever follows.

Still, Chiral and HM might be in practice way more "straight edge" and "straight head" than people who downright dismiss spirit beliefs or that lend themselves to more "acceptable set of beliefs".They could even sport even more weird beliefs ("weird" for someone who doesnt believe in them or finds them "illogical" by his/her criteria) and still be well-adjusted to everyday life, happy, -if society calls for- productive, healthy individuals that wont jolt up kicking and screaming and running panicked outside of the the pub while having a Beer with mutant because some overly paranoid idea about mutant being a goverment agent trying to insert microchips up their anus stuck in their minds and they were deader-than-their-greatgreatgreatgrandma sure that was correct :D.

[mutant]

HM>>

i disagree. whilst people may not have the 'exact' same experience there is a general consensus of visiting similar places and encounteres with similar beings e.g the dmt 'dome', the 'elves' etc. keep in mind we are talking about things that are by definition ineffable. hard to describe because they are so removed from our everyday 'reality'. read enough trip reports, read the books by Grof, Strassman, Shannon, RAW etc and you will find that the data suggests that there are common elements between experiences. it also suggests that these experiences are replicable and repeatable. these elements also often extend to similarities between abduction experiences and near death experiences that people have reported and which have been catalouged in hundreds of books on those respective subjects.

you keep repeating read this, do that, read enough reports etc ... I told you reports without individual history are worthless IMO for the serious points I am proposing. Besides I have read tons of reports during my years of interest with drugs.

Let me put it other wise, on salvia, which is legal where I live and I have some experience and have read lots of reports. So, reports have some common points. But they are not universal, not all report a presence or a live space in breakthrough exepriences [4&5 on salvia scale].

In any case, there are similarities - people are using the same substance ffs!

and there are differences, from person to person, as each one is different.

Some draft conclusions can be made from studying responses to the drug though, but it is needed to know what kind of person reports.

All in all, I mean to say that the similarities of visions by people who are experiencing the same drug [or drug class] is pretty normal, what the fuck, same drug, same effects. More so in community people, psychedelic afficionados, who share more than a couple of psych experiences, also similar culture, beliefs, self-reflections and projections, like believers do in every religion or even members of any club after all.

I am suggesting that it would be strange to not to notice similarities in people's trips since they're ingesting the same drug/class of drugs, especially going with a similar state of mind, but it's similarities only and this doesn't prove anything, sorry.

it is possible to have these types of experiences and encounter beings without ingesting anything.

yep, that's right. Psychotics do it all the time.

do you think that fact proves their existence or disproves it?

look I am not interested in proving something. Proving or disproving such a thing is meaningless, let alone boring. For an atheist which I am, these things are not 'real' real, but I am sure they are real experiences. So the discussion is about what are they, what is it that these experiences unfold - so i am interested in the same thing as you. You may cry all you want I haven't had much experiece, but to me thinking and speculating before is like preparing to delve with the most open mind I can. I might never go as deep dose/intensity wise, but I don't see any special depth in your conclusions as soon as the effect has worn off, sorry.

So, no, the fact that some people experience them without drugs say nothing, apart from a hint for their mental condition. Psychotics, religious freeks and seriously brainwashed people can see all kinds of things without drugs. Those are the people that should stay away from drugs, especially all kinds of psychedelics, pot and stimulants more than others, even though some psychotics might have managed to somewhat work with psychedelics and stay relatively healthy or even improved through their use.

The important point is: what kind of people are they [those who see stuff on no drug]? And what kind of people are those who see them on drugs and regard those entities important and definately separate from their own minds?

You know, a modern and nice way of drugless treating psychosis is trying to convince the psychotic understand the voices are his own self, maybe some part of his who's separated by a chemical impalance or whatever and encouraging an internal dialogue between the self and the voice, but in the vein that the voice is another part of the self not something separate.

In the very same vein, some people might be better off thinking the voice or voices are different entities and not themselves. I cannot see how this could be benefit in modern western societies, but I accept it might work, that is regarding psychotic people special in the vein of having special powers... or a psychotic refusing to accept he is ill, and just taking his situation as different or special. I accept this, it's his choice and maybe it's to his benefit.

So, I am not implying people who see spirits are all psychotics, and of course noone replied [forbidden areas those I am entering, I like this] about psychedelics as psychotomimics. When you see stuff on drugs its pretty normal, it's as easy and simple as that!

what do you make of the idea that people who have near death experiences report similar visions as those that have had DMT?

man you don't need to link everything with the mystery of the 'other' and tryptamines. To me none of this is a 'mystery'. NDEs, classic psychedelics, dissociatives, epileptic crisis, psychotic episodes, all stimulate the same circuit in the brain the so called 'god-module', the 'god-spot' , a circuit that is responsible and host for religious, grandiose, apocalyptic visions. This is a given. So the mystery of god and the mystery of psychedelic entities is long solved, at least partly. It's a brain proceedure in my eyes, and it won't be antyhing else even if I see god with my eyes [i'd love to actually, as I'd love to see the spirits]

In short, real religious/apocalyptic experiences are no longer a mystery, the mechanisms have been partly revealed.

Raba:

From what I've read of your posts, you seem to imply that people who encounter these "beings" only do so because they've been told that they will.

mutant:

that too, but not only that, that is the obvious rational thing anyone with the minimal knowledge for psychedelics would think

HM:

you are spot on with that one mutey.

How amusing! Remember that just because it's the basic knowledge, it's not any less true and surely it's not cancelled by smartass comments

[mutant]

Chiral>>>

mutant:

I am saying that that's what psychedelics do : they create gods in the head, spirits, religions. Take a high enough dose, and you will see them, or become temporarily or permanently crazy. When taking more and more psychedelics, the limits between crazy and healthy view become blurred.

But yeah, then again, many people into psychs are fscinated with aliens, not because of McKenna probabaly, so they see them in high doses. Pretty normal.

Your hypothesis for this state of "craziness" is based on what physiological data Mutant...?

which of all? I did not refer to a single state. Remember that psychedelics were called psychotomimics at first? Where do you think this came from? You know that in the old times cannabis induced psychosis was called 'hashish psychosis', as if cannabis was causing it? well truth is that some drugs encourage the expression of psychotic schemes, like it or not. My comments derive from that and I explain it a lot above in my comments to HM.

And I'd like an explanation and correlative data that outlines what a "healthy mind" is please...that'd be super.

Hmmm a healthy mind is one that feels healthy and happy for extended periods of time, healthy is when you can experience sadness normally, healthy is taking mdma tonight and waking up tomorow feeling great and not in a serotonine syndrome. Healthy is having motivation, socialising, having somebody by your side, being in a relative balance with body and mind and people around you. Healthy is to be able to love and to be loved. Of course all these are ideal.... just outlining the utopia..

Now please you tell me what you think a psychotic mind is, what psychosis is...

I will refrain from commenting personally in what you told about your family and that 13 y.o. experience, but hey, that's what I meant reports have to personalised so as to have some depth, so thanks for the input

Mutant you are really difficult to have an in depth discussion with sometimes, perhaps it's language barriers or sumthin, maybe you take ssri's and don't trip properly who knows, but your view on users is and always seems condescending and derogatory to me, there is a sense of closed mindedness sometimes...

if your in-depth discussions' involve mere description of entities, colours and visual patterns and that's all, and in the same time you dismiss me for religious/egoistical/whatever reasons then I would say it's you that cannot delve in the real depth.

and no I never took any presciption drugs, ssri or otherwise.

my experiences have shaped me in ways I have accepted as my line of walk...this path I take is mine and no regrets or badgery from skeptics will ever change that...

why the fuck do you think I want to change you? My psych experiences have co-shaped my worldview too, I just never abused anything other than pot and alcohol.

You say I am being condescending and derogatory, just because I choose to stand and support my views, which are in no way dogmatic. In the mean time, as this is going on some time now, did you read your own comments? Did you read your fellow believers comments, HM?

I am not doubting your experience, I am discussing [and yeah doubting] your interpretations and moreover the usefulness of what you advertise.

You have been dismissing everything: my experience, my interpretations and most importantly, the usefullness of my points.

So, it's not my fault if during your tendency to dismiss me as an arrogant naysayer with no experience, you ridicule yourselves. Cause, you know, I am rare fish in those waters, but where I stand ain't easily confronted, as you can see.

I once worked with a young greek guy who was a drummer and he came in as a session muso for some live DnB recordings I was doing, his view on psychedelics and mdma was very similar to yours from memory...I told him I didn't need him anymore when he told me that he would take pills on the weekends and go down the main drag of the city looking for fights with other like minded smooth intellectuals as himself....I never understood this and still don't.

what??? in what way was he similar to me? lol, you don't know me man, so stop making a fool out of yourself. I hate violence, always did, always will, violence is totally alien to me, more alien than what those mantids did to HM.

btw, what is my opinion on psychs and mdma? I would love to read what you think of it! - especially mdma which I don't think I have spoken a lot about...

****

I think most humans get caught up in the trap of.."well if it can't be replicated again then it's not real...it gets classified as unknown...being repetitive creatures who love routine and schedules we pretty much won't accept anything as "real" until it can be replicated over and over.

well, yes, many do, but not me. I hate what I call scientifism, if you noticed I was telling this in a previous post. I like hypothesis, logical jumps, etc, I think they're all proceedures that advance philosophy and knowledge. You just need an open mind and be as objective you can.

Let's talk a bit about what's real and what's reality. I am an atheist. But I believe many god/divine whatever experiences are real, cause by psychs, faith or whatever, I don't care what caused them in this arguement. People experience this kind of shit. So the experience is real, as real in the head, but the stuff seen is not 'real' real, as it generated and expressed itself in the head only. If you like it's a real phenomenon, but it's not a reality, not a general reality anyways. If you believe in it, it is reality, it's a part of your reality, it's your subjective reality, so it's indeed a kind of reality and if it works beneficially for you, then go for it.

BUT, instead of staying silent in my side, as an obvious minority, I consciously decide to comment about all this dogma being set and reproduced in every fucking psychedelic community. And while doing this, I remind you not everyone is the same. In a way this cluster of threads is the peak of a number of discussions which were never done, because most people don't want to discuss this kind of things. Yeah, my tone is somewhat harsh, but, that's the way with fishing - besides I have seen the polite way fail so many times, so....

If a UFO hovered above the waters of Sydney harbor one day for 5 seconds and thousands saw it, the rest of us that didn't see it would be skeptical and be instant disbelievers...if that UFO came back every half hour and did the same trick for 6 months we would all be like.."oh yeah I've seen that it's old news"...prolly get bored with it and get the council or Sydney waterways to ask it to move along and do it's dance somewhere else or it will cop a fine.

lets see the fucking ufo, nowadys every mobile phone has a camera

Experiences are coming at us at such a terrific speed continuously that we never take the time to absorb each one, rather move on faster and faster to the next thing in fear of being left behind or something.

I think you just described ideally the situation of a guy that takes more drugs than he can process.

[Chiral]

Dear mutant:

Chiral said...Your hypothesis for this state of "craziness" is based on what physiological data Mutant...?

Mutant said...which of all? I did not refer to a single state. Remember that psychedelics were called psychotomimics at first? Where do you think this came from? You know that in the old times cannabis induced psychosis was called 'hashish psychosis', as if cannabis was causing it? well truth is that some drugs encourage the expression of psychotic schemes, like it or not. My comments derive from that and I explain it a lot above in my comments to HM.

1 you didn't answer my question.

2 so by your reasoning..or "reefer madness logic" any change in chemical balance brought on by an active compound makes one crazy...I see, so you are a crazy drunk then.

3 you didn't answer my question.

Mutant said...Hmmm a healthy mind is one that feels healthy and happy for extended periods of time, healthy is when you can experience sadness normally, healthy is taking mdma tonight and waking up tomorow feeling great and not in a serotonine syndrome. Healthy is having motivation, socialising, having somebody by your side, being in a relative balance with body and mind and people around you. Healthy is to be able to love and to be loved. Of course all these are ideal.... just outlining the utopia..

Quite possibly the most piss weak generic answer to a complex I've ever seen...I mean really what are you like 12...happy is having someone by your side and being able to love and be loved...

save it for your girlfriends or relatives yeah.

Mutant said...Now please you tell me what you think a psychotic mind is, what psychosis is...

Well lets just assume for a minute shall we that there are many types of psychosis...no fuck it I'm telling you there are many types of psychosis...pick one from THIS LIST and get back to me.

Mutant said...I will refrain from commenting personally in what you told about your family and that 13 y.o. experience, but hey,

Don't know what you are refraining from here...seems refraining from any comment would simply mean you would not have left a comment, but seeing as how you did, you obviously have something to say so lets hear it.

Mutant said...if your in-depth discussions' involve mere description of entities, colours and visual patterns and that's all, and in the same time you dismiss me for religious/egoistical/whatever reasons then I would say it's you that cannot delve in the real depth.

As usual you lost me...when i did I say I wish to discuss patterns and colors or entities..?

Chiral said...my experiences have shaped me in ways I have accepted as my line of walk...this path I take is mine and no regrets or badgery from skeptics will ever change that...

Mutant said...why the fuck do you think I want to change you? My psych experiences have co-shaped my worldview too, I just never abused anything other than pot and alcohol.

You really are quite the delusional sometimes...this was merely a statement about my passage in life, it has nothing to do with you oh righteous one.

[Chiral]

and seeing as how there is a limit on quotes i have had to continue over to here...

Mutant said...You say I am being condescending and derogatory, just because I choose to stand and support my views, which are in no way dogmatic. In the mean time, as this is going on some time now, did you read your own comments? Did you read your fellow believers comments, HM?

Chiral said...Experiences are coming at us at such a terrific speed continuously that we never take the time to absorb each one, rather move on faster and faster to the next thing in fear of being left behind or something.

Mutant said...I think you just described ideally the situation of a guy that takes more drugs than he can process.

I think that comment of yours above about sums up your attitude and proves my point...Mutant you jackass, I was referring to "WE" as all of mankind...what has "a guy who takes too much drugs" got to do with it.

Mutant said...You have been dismissing everything: my experience, my interpretations and most importantly, the usefullness of my points.

please point me to said dismisiveness and I'll gladly go over it in point form.

Mutant said...So, it's not my fault if during your tendency to dismiss me as an arrogant naysayer with no experience, you ridicule yourselves. Cause, you know, I am rare fish in those waters, but where I stand ain't easily confronted, as you can see.

You're the one trying to tell the story man, you are the one who keeps coming up with these threads and asks for advice and wishes to discuss things, the way I see it, you don't listen to any advice and dismiss everyone's else experiences and package us all up as some sort of psychotic psychedelic mental ward...the intricacies of the people here, and the many varied lives we all lead, lends itself to a community overflowing with intelligent, thoughtful, caring, colorful, forward thinking, healthy minded individuals, but your bubbled view of us seems to be one of psychotic delusional drug addicts...on more than one occasion you have asked others more experienced for some views and advice, but when it's received you steam roll their views with your agnostic, and often dogmatic circular logic, it's affect is that we are meaningless or have been duped and all we have done is borrowed and regurgitated our experiences and opinions borrowed from books or other so called community intellectuals.

[Rabaelthazar]

Raba I will send you a PM asking the personalised story, without which reports are pretty useless, at least for onjectively approaching these spaces.

 

PM'd

[Chiral]

and the rest...whew..

Mutant said...btw, what is my your opinion on psychs and mdma? I would love to read what you think of it! - especially mdma which I don't think I have spoken a lot about...

I'm not sure what you mean...are you asking me a question..???

if so then my views on MDMA are somewhat positive, it hits all the right recpetors for people in this day and age, i'd like to see how a remote amazonian tribal elder would embrace such a compound and what their thoughts on it would be, but it's structure...and many others in the amphetamine family, appear to be quite neurotoxic. These compounds can be utilized/managed and worked with in medicine I firmly believe that, but they have a very rapid toxicity onset and are generally not to be taken regularly. The drugs purity has been of real concern also, because all mdma is knocked up illegally and is nevr clean enuff, the effects of ingesting so many bi-products and toxic remnants is something we may never quite fully understand and deal with, that's a real worry, cause people just don't care about that when they wanna get high...I didn't.

I confess to abusing MDMA for about 6-7 years every weekend in the UK, generally dropping 1 and half pills at the start of the night, and then switching to acid when the mdma was wearing off, hash spliffs and hot tea till the next afternoon was the way out as gentle as possible. The next day was amphetamine sulphate time or if not working simply sleeping and eating. When i went to the Uk all those years ago i did not care if i died or lived, I simply moved in a flow of people and parties, drugs, sex, art, protests and grungy clothes, in fact i was quite sure i would die there from an overdose or something like it...at my most hardcore point, I weighed 54kilos, smoked hash all day, ate 5 grams of power speed a week, lived in a squat, begged on the streets, ate maybe twice a week and washed maybe monthly...Not a single regret or misgiving though.

I've since tried MDMA several times since those days, and am more than happy to leave it alone or dose for very rare or special personal occasions, preferably at home with a loved one and in quiet peaceful surroundings....assuming of course it actually is mdma and not some bunk...a pill I did about a year ago nearly killed me, it was horrific and I consider myself someone who can control themselves quite well even when things are getting too heavy and full on, but this pill was...well I don't know what it was but it was brutal.

Mutant said...lets see the fucking ufo, nowadays every mobile phone has a camera

So even though you have never seen a UFO, do you allow yourself to be open enough that they could exist, or are you a skeptic and don't consider any of the sightings over the hundreds of years as real.

[holymountain]

I told you reports without individual history are worthless IMO for the serious points I am proposing.

if you read the books i was suggesting you would see that each report also contains much information about the persons history and life. thats just standard. do you seriously think these people would write these books without including such vital information? or are you just once again making judgements and rejecting ideas without looking at the proposed evidence?

and it won't be antyhing else even if I see god with my eyes [i'd love to actually, as I'd love to see the spirits

mutant i don't understand why you keep expressing a desire to see spirits. you know what steps to take, you know which tools to use, yet you still stand back and say 'i'd love to see that' yet never do anything about it. perhaps you are concerned that you may have to reshape your views accordingly?

To me none of this is a 'mystery'. NDEs, classic psychedelics, dissociatives, epileptic crisis, psychotic episodes, all stimulate the same circuit in the brain the so called 'god-module', the 'god-spot' , a circuit that is responsible and host for religious, grandiose, apocalyptic visions. This is a given. So the mystery of god and the mystery of psychedelic entities is long solved, at least partly.

In short, real religious/apocalyptic experiences are no longer a mystery, the mechanisms have been partly revealed.

 

this does not reveal or explain anything. to reduce visions to simply 'it's a molecule in your brain' does not answer or explain anything. rather it just puts a blanket over the whole phenomena. and we all know blankets help you sleep better at night.

Edited May 29, 2010 by holymountain

[mutant]

so you are a crazy drunk

quite apropriately

I am quite drunk right now

g'nite

PS. I like Chiral , he is direct

Edited May 29, 2010 by mutant

[mutant]

Well Chiral

there are no questions I didn't answer. You on the other hand have little to argue/offer on topic.

alcohol doesn't ever directly cause psychotic behaviour, psychs sometimes do. Alcohol doesn't last long term, it affects only for a couple of hours, psychs effect people long term. With alcohol you can abuse it for years and stay pretty much unchanged, psychedelics abuse definately changes people for better or worse, it depends.

you can talk about any form of psychosis you want or even better for psychotic related conditions in general

if you think my view on health and happiness is 'pissy weak pussy' or whatever of those nice colloquials you usually serve me, it might be because I am not a hardhead matcho man who takes 28 grams of psilos for breakfast

But I no more expect you to understand sensitivity [to drugs, or otherwise]

You do have a substantial on topic paragraph though

You're the one trying to tell the story man, you are the one who keeps coming up with these threads and asks for advice and wishes to discuss things, the way I see it, you don't listen to any advice and dismiss everyone's else experiences and package us all up as some sort of psychotic psychedelic mental ward..

Well I didn't know I have to ask your permission so as to write in the forums and apologise for my opinions, to you!. I am listening to every solid advice and learn a lot from people who bother to discuss with me, even you, but in those cluster of threads you definately seem lost at what you should do with me. Maybe you should not bother anymore, as you initially stated, you know, you don't HAVE to reply.

Moreover, I don't pack you up in a single package, you do that to yourself, I form my own opinion on each one of you, not from the pack he's putting yourself in, or not, but from what I can tell from his posts. You say I don't listen to advice given to me : bollocks, you probably overestimate your own advice which is definately not more in depth than what a common druggie would say : 'go for it', 'eat it', 'don't be a pussy', 'eat the god damn shrooms and then talk' and so. Like I said, you have lots of experience in using drugs. That doesn't mean you necessarily understand them and for sure it doesn't mean you understand other people's relationship with them let alone understanding the person itself [that is me].

....to a community overflowing with intelligent, thoughtful, caring, colorful, forward thinking, healthy minded individuals....

Yes there are such people in psych communities, more so in here...

but your bubbled view of us seems to be one of psychotic delusional drug addicts.

Yeah yeah. Tell me about my views on 'you'. You stand as a representative for the whole community? How come?

on more than one occasion you have asked others more experienced for some views and advice, but when it's received you steam roll their views with your agnostic, and often dogmatic circular logic, it's affect is that we are meaningless or have been duped and all we have done is borrowed and regurgitated our experiences and opinions borrowed from books or other so called community intellectuals.

look man, you are so cool and hardhead and colourful you cannot understand the lighter colours. Why do you think you or anyone else is entitled to give all the right advice and consider experienced as guru? You don't understand shit of what I am saying, but even if you did, your 'eat the god damn shroom' "advice" is not useful, OK??

Since when should people who are asking for opinions should accept any replies as godspell?

And skip the stupid colloquial language you're not talking to an australian ffs

Regarding my question on mdma, interesting to hear your history with it, but yeah you lost me there too.

You said that greek friend of yours had similar views with me on psychs and mdma, implying you know what my opinion on these matters is. So I asked you, what is my opinion on mdma, and what's my opinion on psychs anyways?

So even though you have never seen a UFO, do you allow yourself to be open enough that they could exist, or are you a skeptic and don't consider any of the sightings over the hundreds of years as real.

I think aliens probably exist somewhere, and they might even have visited the earth in the old times, maybe recently too. But yeah I never saw one, and even if I saw one while on some psychedelic drug, I would probably not take it as granted... but you never know, I might become

all of a sudden

If you read the books i was suggesting you would see that each report also contains much information about the persons history and life. thats just standard. do you seriously think these people would write these books without including such vital information? or are you just once again making judgements and rejecting ideas without looking at the proposed evidence?

alright, is there any report in the book including persons history of an atheist and sceptic who did large doses saw stuff and considers them real real??? You're talking Strassman , Grof, which book?

mutant i don't understand....

I know

regarding the god spot

this does not reveal or explain anything.

maybe for a theist it might not explain nothing, but for an atheist, sceptic etc it's fucking interesting and apocalyptic!

to reduce visions to simply 'it's a molecule in your brain'

no no, not a molecule in the brain, it's a whole brain circuit that produces these types of experiences. And it's not strictly triggered by drugs. A theist mind might see this as a reduction, and its pretty normal, but he could also see it otherwise, like "we do have a circuit in our brains that generates these kind of experiences, so it cannot be worthless, there must be some point in humans having it". In any case, your reply on god spot is indicative: 'it does not revela or explain anything' ..... so what does? Mantids that abduct people on their sub visions?

rather it just puts a blanket over the whole phenomena. and we all know blankets help you sleep better at night.

I don't see me putting any blanket man but I really have nothing against using a blanket to sleep better at night.

You know what I see as a blanket to cover up the phenomenon? Your attitude, you want to protect the phenomenon from my corrosive thoughts

but what can a blanket do against a corrosive agent?

Edited May 29, 2010 by mutant

[Chiral]

Mutant said...

Well Chiral

alcohol doesn't ever directly cause psychotic behaviour, psychs sometimes do. Alcohol doesn't last long term, it affects only for a couple of hours, psychs effect people long term. With alcohol you can abuse it for years and stay pretty much unchanged, psychedelics abuse definately changes people for better or worse, it depends.

 

This is a joke right...you have your tongue firmly in your cheek yes.....?

[incognito]

 

 

[SunChaser]

psy·cho·sis (s-kss)

n. pl. psy·cho·ses (-sz)

A severe mental disorder, with or without organic damage, characterized by derangement of personality and loss of contact with reality and causing deterioration of normal social functioning.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

 

In other words if your really drunk you have psychosis.

Personally I think it's the people that think they have it all worked out, that actually have the least idea of what it's all about.