Booze-fuelled violence on the rise

[incognito]

Not propounding alcohol at all, but would definitely prefer a child of mine to have an alcohol habit rather than smack.

i was gonna say..thats a hard call.. heroin would probably do ALOT less damage to the overall physical health of the subject.

unless they OD of course or they are getting shitty gear with heaps of additives.

Alcohol on the otherhand is a poison, it poisons all the way through, from the time it goes in until the time it comes out.

But yeah when u take into consideration the dodgy ways in which one oft has to obtain it wheras u can just walk into a bottle-o.

Its a tough one ED. I would never paint alcohol as a safe drug (which you havent.) I think it is just culturally acceptable, but as far as toxic substances for your body goes, i think the dangers more lie with alcohol than it does with heroin.

Edited March 23, 2010 by incognito

[ThunderIdeal]

Anyone who thinks they can get hammered and not act like a tool, probably just hasn't had it brought to their attention. Some people are worse than others when drunk, granted, but everyone acts like a dickhead after enough drinks. So I would have to conclude that:

A. We are all a bunch of tools deep down and alcohol brings it out

OR

B. Alcohol causes us to be tools.

I guess whether you pick A or B is really a philosophical matter, as one way or the other the results are the same. I just personally prefer B, because it's a more optimistic view of humanity.

 

while you are possibly right that you'd be better off being an alcoholic than a smack addict, this is inseparably linked to, and dependent on, government policy.

 

i think you've bonked this one on the head. maybe a little bit too general, but i definitely can't accept "i get hammered all the time and it never makes me act like a tool".

[reshroomED]

I've lost seven close friends over the years (OD) due to smack, vs two which *possibly* could be attributed to alcohol (car/bike crashes) so as far as empirical proofs go.......

But that's not what I was getting at.

My point was that the cravings induced by lack of supply are hardly comparable when it comes to heroin vs alcohol. The government giving away free smack won't change this one iota, only lessen the occurrence, and the degree of difficulty when wanting to stop will probably remain constant too.

Perhaps if the government gave away free livers, alcohol's down-sides would disappear?

If anyone can't see a link between violence and smack addiction, I'd suggest they've spent zero time around junkies. I've seen some pretty sick shit over the years, but by far the sickest and most depraved acts have mostly had a junkie perpetrating them.

And worth paying heed to, is the fact that I'm talking about "junkies". Not the one-in-a-hundred person that can actually manage a habit along with a productive life, but the poor bastards that can't.

The flip-side being that I've never seen a piss-head steal for their next hit (and I knew a bloke once who would freeze his beer cans to extract the alcohol). Whereas your average junkie would sell their parents' life-savings for a belt.

A close-to-home example would be Conan Troutman's recent debacle.

That bastard ripped-off his friends, and if that's as far as he sinks, he'll be doing well, 'cause that's usually the first big down-hill step (from my experience).

I'm in no way defending alcohol as a drug, or calling horse the worst thing ever, just think grog's the lesser evil of the two (if a substance can have such attributes).

I know there are a few ex-users here (and a few who still dabble) so would be interested to hear their take on this.

Anyway it's not just the piss and smack you've gotta worry about:

ed

Edited March 23, 2010 by reshroomED

[Teotzlcoatl]

I see violence related to all addictive drugs, but I believe what we are talking about here is that the actual effects of alcohol act as a catalyst for violent behavior, while the effects of opiates likely dilute violent tendencies, the violence associated with opiates happens only when the person has ran out

[rahli]

Nothing like being trapped in an alcohol fueled cycle of violence to turn a nice bloke into a raving psychopath.

But then again maybe he was a raving psychopath to begin with. The only way to really know is to remove him from the alcohol fueled cycle of violence and see.

I cant see how drinking alcohol exposses a persons true colours. I thought abstaining from alcohol would be more likely to do this. Unless pissed is the human steady (or unsteady)state.

[ThunderIdeal]

i've absolutely seen people steal and act like shitbags to buy alcohol

and it's cheap!

[ballzac]

I cant see how drinking alcohol exposses a persons true colours. I thought abstaining from alcohol would be more likely to do this. Unless pissed is the human steady (or unsteady)state.

 

That's a really good point rahli.

[mutant]

The stats are not on your side there.

stats and 'scientific data' can be interpreted according to who interprets ;)

In many cases I believe violence would not have occurred... if the person hadn't been drunk... therefore alcohol causes violence, even if the person performs the act and the alcohol only brings it out.

the person performs the act, that's for sure . what you're describing is not causative, but triggering, catalysing. Difference.

I have seen healthy people dosing on benzos and become violent and annoying. Junkies are annoying to me, they are slow in communicating because they are less sensitive to body laguage, and they can be annoying, according to character as well. I have seen people in parties on acid who are extremely agressive in eye contact and body language, trying to freak out the others and laugh at them.

On the other hand I am constantly around 10s of people who drink and talk casually, and having a nice time. OK, from time to time, someone will drink too much. Most people become sick with extreme nausea and can't move for hours, some fall asleep, some throw up and for some this seems to help, but for others not - some might get into a delirium, some might get violent. It's different people.

Like I said, it all depends on whom you have by your side and drinking with.

whats the drinking culture like there mutant?

that's my guy, -YT- is spot on!

it's like, most of you continue to support your thesis not even trying to argue, -YT- is smart enough to think "why is this greek guy like that about alcohol" ?

So yea, what's the drinking culture here? What's the drugs culture here? What's the culture like here after all?

These all have to do with our perception of what a drug can or cannot do, especially in regard with the dangers.

Greeks are totally different drinkers than many of other europeans. Much of the time drinking involves less potent liquer like beers [we have nice weather, I drink it all year round] or wine. Much of the times it involves drinking socially in a table and also eating. The famous greek 'taverna' [ταβέρνα] thing, of which there are many varieties, equivalent maybe with a barrelhouse.

I lived in berlin for some months in 2002 , and while astonished by berlins culture and night life, I got to know the drinking habits of various people from finnish girls [they know how to drink indeed!] to many other euro countries. These people seldom ate & drank simultaneously, like, roast meat, and goats , salad, and all kinds of food that suit together with different kind of alcohol. In greece not only is the habit of inviting friends for diner strong, but we do it all the time in tavernas , restaurants, small ouzo/beer wineshops/barrelhouses etc. It's a common saturday evening act for greeks.

So the drinking we are talking about here is not isolating, sedative, to make one forget ones problem. Not the modern-club-beer-in-the-hands empty mainstream culture, the picture of the loner drinking his drink slowly on the bar chair is depressing indeed.

But why blame the drug? It's the only legal euphoric for fuck's sake, the only drug available to make you 'happy', forget your problems and anxieties, so lots of people drink it and some of them commit violence triggered by excessive use, yeah, no news, but it's not the fucking alcohol.

It's cheap, it's legal, you can get it anywhere. Everyone can get it, its use is pretty usual. So why wonder it 'causes' so much problems? People, our societies have lots of problems without alcohol alone. Why wouldn't alcohol add it's colour to the bleak picture of future societies and their alienation ?

But, I repeat, it's not the alcohol.

I have to mention I am generally [loosely] against any drug use before around 18 years old, alcohol included, exceptions accepted on occasion.

You ozzies are a 'uk creation' right? Englishmen, including irish and scotchmen are rumoured and prove to be pretty lousy drinkers. Drinking so as to get fucked up. Some greek turist destinations on some islands are known for the drinking and drunk frenzy caused by the UK turists, sometimes riots reaching national TV status on summers.

We don't have that kind of drinking culture. All in all, in greece pretty naturally, as we have a big history of wine-making and wine in culture and ancient greece, incl. other liquers like tsipouro & raki, we have a more educated and rightful approach to it. Lot's of it has to do, say, with drinking while eating and avoiding drinking on empty stomach, and knowing how oneself responds to it.

Alcohol often causes sideffects and next-day sickness, the famous hangover, also often couses stomach and liver problems. I don't dismiss that. Nor do I dismiss the danger from loss of motor skills or sensible judgement.

Not that we don't get accidents, not that drunk idiots never cause problems. It's rather like, idiots are not always drinkers, you know they also take other drugs like coke, acid, heroin, benzos, etc or they don't take any drugs at all, or they are on steroids, how could I forget this?

Also, there's not much street violence in my hometown.

Violence in athens, the capital is not alcohol related either.

Violence in greece is political and economical, showing itself in demonstrations and anti-state riots.

Sure, a fucker gets drunk, returns home, quarels with his wife, beats the shit out of her and nobody learns a thing about it.

But I refuse to link this directly with alcohol. People like this are fucked up in the first place [hey, all of us are a bit fucked up!] blaming the alcohol is a rather 'cheap' excuse for psychedelic theists and humanists in general to argue / convince themselves that homo sapiens is a good person.

but no. George Carlin says it all "chickens are decent people"

I also think, that, person-wise, it's worse to be an alcoholic than a heroin junky, but note that an alcoholic is a lot different than an alcohol habit. It's said to be the worst addiction of them all and the hardest of all to overcome, but it's difficult to get really hooked.

Ballzac is also spot on...

I guess whether you pick A or B is really a philosophical matter, as one way or the other the results are the same. I just personally prefer B, because it's a more optimistic view of humanity.

I am in the realistic side, sida A, and I don't see how it spoils the beauty of the big picture nevertheless

I suppose it's just he way we are, it's these little differences that make the world interesting.

Fuck, these differences might be the very reason, the most ancient reason why we're here now talking through the PC!

Edited March 24, 2010 by mutant

[rahli]

A. We are all a bunch of tools deep down and alcohol brings it out

OR

B. Alcohol causes us to be tools.

 

A. The Shadow is the Man

OR

B. The Man has shadows attached

If there is one thing we can learn from modern western psychology that is that negative shadows can be removed to further your personal growth and evolution.

Fuck, these differences might be the very reason, the most ancient reason why we're here now talking through the PC!

 

However I do agree with this point as I'm sure we are were we are today as the result of billions upon billions of shadows forcing themselve onto and manipulating the shape of our world.

Heres to humanity the Shadow of a man!

[bℓσωηG]

Hey rahli im with you on shadows ,nicely put. Alcohol abuse does help make a person vulnerable to negativity...but also in some shamanic traditions used in moderation can be quite uplifting and an insightful tool...... When i was in Ecuador during the ayahuasca ceremony a group of drunken local youths were milling around a hundred or so meters away.The shaman had to be on gaurd and do circles of our area calling in protection to illuminate the ''space'' ,as he said that with drunk people follow their shadows which can wander near the circle and upset the healing. I remember him being very tired after that night ,drained from ghoul defense.

There are very intriguing similarities between these Jurema rituals and the Ayahuasca rituals of the Amazon Forest. The Jurema rituals exhibit all the characteristics of psychoactive influence although these Indians also drink alcohol to induce an altered state of consciousness. Alcohol is the only available medium through which their rituals can be enhanced and attendant spirits served.(cultural tradition). At the ritual's end, many empty bottles of cachaça (aquardente from sugar cane, the strongest alcohol available in Brazil), are scattered around the altar. However, the participating mediums, through whom the spirits have been drinking, are sober. (Phenomena registered in Umbanda, Cadomblé and other African traditions that are part of the Brazilian syncretism of religions

link; http://yatra.yage.net/jurema.htm Edited March 25, 2010 by blowng

[Hendry]

In the end people are responsible for the things they do.

If get a lil drunk and "accidentally" kill someone are you still a murderer? what if your really sorry you did it and promise to never do it again lol,or is it society's fault for allowing you to drink? lol Is there ever a good excuse for being a violent asshole?

Is it easier for Australia to blame alcohol or lack of government regulations for the problems caused by violent assholes.......of course

[mutant]

the A/B dilemma is alright to point out the thinking process.. but obsessing with it just reveals the black&white, football fan, theist, believer approach of some of you....

If I have to make out one [a/b scheme] myself it was going to be:

A ) The glass is half full

B ) The glass is half empty

so it's A+B together.

I am an optimist and generally see the glass as half full.

Alcohol abuse does help make a person vulnerable to negativity..

I disagree. Alcohol social drinking makes a person lean towards positive vibes. I would love to show you the place I usually drink socially these days. We all know each other , such a friendly and nice atmosphere.

BUT

If you're alone, your dog just died, your girlfriend left you, your house was burnt, you got robbed, you got negative bastards for friends or no friends at all, etc etc etc, then yeah, drinking lots of alcohol might bring on more negativity.

On the other hand, in every ethnobotanical communit/forums, people are full of mental issues and some of them are constantly self-medicating for some reason, [often an excuse to get high] many of them are or have been hooked on sedatives like opiates and benzos and most have abused any other drug like alcohol, cannabis etc etc, often hating them after they are obliged to quit.

[not stating mental issues started with psych use, propably most people have problems in the first place, but I am suggesting that a biased view cannot be according to the real picture]

Some of you clearly don't know how to drink, or how wine was drank in the old times, and you think psychedelic communities are such a great and enlightened place, therefore psychs=best.

But you seem to forget that most people you consider your gurus for psychs have abused every drug know to man, before deciding alcohol, speed and coke are creations of the devil. The ultimate contradiction is that people who claim coke, alcohol or speed are the devil are using opiates/benzos which they consider not-devilish...

Edited March 26, 2010 by mutant

[ThunderIdeal]

i guess drinkers prefer to hang out with drinkers, potheads with potheads, trippers with trippers, tweakers with tweakers and so forth. it can be a bit annoying when you're energy level and mental state aren't synchronised with those around you.

the laziness of potheads, incoherence of trippers, hyperactivity of tweakers can all be annoying when you aren't there with them.

i am probably somewhat bitter that so many people enjoy regressing into an uncoordinated loudmouth and i'm no longer able to enjoy it with them, because i choose to maintain my dignity and intellect. a couple odd drinks maybe twice a week can be nice for me, in the right company, but you know in that nicely loosened state i sometimes find it even harder to tolerate a drunk person, and i'm more likely to call them out on their loudmouthed antics. it's a case of 'you are one annoying bastard right now and i can't be fucked keeping it to myself'.

[bℓσωηG]

Psychedelics could cure alcoholism.... To me a 750ml litre of vodka or tequila as a night out for one, but am working on eliminating my dependence on stupefying intoxicants , but alcohol being so readily available creates a hazard for someone trying to save his or her liver from dissolving.... Something like mushrooms can be life changing , although in most cases not good for socializing, especially around alcohol inebriated people.But I believe shrooms could potentially solve a persons problems in one dose if they're listening .

[mutant]

Psychoactive amanitas in lower to medium doses bring out an intellectually superior social inebriation compared to alcohol - for those who dislike alcohol but who'd like to try something different, where legal...

to me the two as well can combine well and the combo can be way better and superior to standalone drunkeness

Psychedelics could cure alcoholism..

yeah, so could alcohol be the refuge, the legal sedative for a mad tripper, as it happens!