bloodbob Posted June 7, 2004 Since the essential oils form sage contain like 25% thujone do you think it would be possible to distill sage/an extract from sage with alcohol to make an absinthe like drink? ( This is completely from a theortical view point as wormwood can be bought in aus ). Edit: Opps I forgot thujone and other errors [ 06. June 2004, 21:02: Message edited by: bloodbob ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted June 7, 2004 re "Since the essential oils form sage contain like 25% do you think it would be possible to distill sage/an extract from sage with alcohol to make an absinthe like drink? " Sage ? is wormwood a sage ???? re " This is completely from a theortical view point as wormwood can be bought in aus " .. yes .. its very easy to grow (its like a weed! lol) ... get it from any nursery .. the most basic absinthe to make would be to buy some wormwood oil (if u can find it), buy some aniseed oil (from supermarket) and mix the two with some high proof vodka... next most basic is above, but steam distill some wormwood from the nursery to get thw wormwood oil to add to above mix /... to go from scratch ...all you have to do is get a hold of some high proof alcohol (the higher the better ... mash up a whole bunch of wormwood and a whole bunch of aniseed (find it growing along train lines .. mm licorish smell) Soak them in the high proof alcohol .... After a week, if you are not distilling again this is it, filter an bottle ... if you are though ... Add some water after a week (equal to volume of alcohol) - leave it another week Dont bother to filter this .. throw the herbs and alcoholic mixture into your still ... distill this really badly (with no reflux or with a pot still [easily home made]) and collect a product that is basicly 60% alcohol and 40% water (the water was once steam and as steam carried wormwood & aniseed oils and flavours). To colour green again soak some freshly mashed wormwood and aniseed.. there are a whole bunch of other herbs that you can use .. but these two are the main ones and the bare min to get away with to make absinthe ... search the net for more recipees Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted June 7, 2004 edit [ 06. June 2004, 22:42: Message edited by: electro ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted June 7, 2004 Originally posted by electro:[QB] lol my above post looks a bit odd now ... lol i guess in theory it is possible .. just replace the wormwood with sage in the above procedure ... that is of course, if thujone really IS responsible for the effects of absinthe ...*shrug* give it a show and let us all know how you go ... also you would not need an extract .. the steam distillation would be enough as it will be bringing across the "essential" oil. also remember that it MUST be pot or non reflux distillation.. (you need steam distillation to get the oils) you need to be getting steam across or it wont work ., probably collect more even after all the alcohol has come across ... (i think some recipes call for you to stop distilling only when colour change in the distillate is noted) finmally you need the aniseed or it wont taste like absinthe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
puffinstuf87 Posted June 7, 2004 there's a sage liquor like absinthe in mexico. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mescalito Posted June 7, 2004 Did you mean Fennel electro? I've never seen aniseed growing near train lines but I could be wrong. Though you could substitute fennel I guess? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bloodbob Posted June 7, 2004 quote: also remember that it MUST be pot or non reflux distillation.. (you need steam distillation to get the oils) you need to be getting steam across or it wont work ., probably collect more even after all the alcohol has come across ... (i think some recipes call for you to stop distilling only when colour change in the distillate is noted) finmally you need the aniseed or it wont taste like absinthe [/QB] Yeah my bad for all the missing bits in the first post I've got a few things running through my mind atm. Would their be any problem doing a fraction distillation after getting the oils? (it boils at 1 ATM anyway ). Actually I do not have any intention of actually trying it I just need to know its possible to make an analog using good old garden sage. [ 06. June 2004, 22:14: Message edited by: bloodbob ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted June 7, 2004 edit [ 06. June 2004, 22:41: Message edited by: electro ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted June 7, 2004 Originally posted by electro:[QB] ACK i just lost a huge reply coz the internet disconnected (damn dialup!) basicly re "isnt it fennel" ./... i stand corrected.. it IS fennel (just googled up a pic) ... i always assumed it was aniseed because of the similarity of smell to aniseed essence (which supposedly is aniseed oil) .... sorry bout that .. re fractional distillation http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/Che...mm/Thujone.html reading the above link ... "Alpha-Thujone can be isolated from natural oils with bisulfite, or via fractional distillation and crystallization" imo not worth the trouble for absinthe tho .. it just isnt necessary to have such clean thujone in it .... i also believe however that more of absinthes activity lies in the recipees that call for calmus root & other such tasties not just in the thujone .. if you are going to the trouble of fractionally distilling indicidual actives, i would go and get ALL the possible actives to add to it .... [ 06. June 2004, 22:44: Message edited by: electro ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friendly Posted June 7, 2004 "The essential oil of commercial sage, normally Salvia officinalis may contain 14-67% thujones." (Ott, Pharmacotheon, 1996 pg 389) b-thujone is the one you want and it predominates in S. officinalis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted June 7, 2004 can you please explain this friendly I was always undre he impression we wanted alpha thujone??! Also the extraction with bisulphire might be cool if you were to get thujone from Book leaf pine , a very common ornamnetal plant - i bet $ every person in perth has at least one in their suburban street It has 90% alpha thujone in the oil and it grows fats and responds well to a piar of hedge scissors Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted June 8, 2004 i posted once a reply about how i got very strong thujon like effects from indigesting very strong officinalis tea,.... allthought thujon is not realy water soluble... it might have helped that i was totaly sleep deprived and the tea was consumed at 5 in the morning... :cool: the topic was called something like alternative sages or so... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friendly Posted June 8, 2004 I'll have to find the b-thujone reference. It was either Ott or Pendall, if memory (that sly trickster) serves me well. [ 08. June 2004, 02:29: Message edited by: friendly ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Talby Posted June 8, 2004 My first post. What a marvelous discussion board you all have here. Some of you may have read my account of an A. calamus experience a few issues back in the Entheogen Review. OK. I lack the 1996 Pharmacotheon. The 1993 edition mentions both alpha and beta thujone. But the main thing I want to add here is a vote of confidence for the "yea" side, and a vote in favor of the "thujone effect" in general. It seemed to me that the thujone effect was present in a bottle of red wine in which 15g fresh A. absinthium was immersed for a few weeks, no doubt about it. Not to mention in something like Francios Guy absinthe. Still, a lot of absinthe fiends over at the fee verte forums dispute the thujone effect, as though absinthe is just another kind of expensive booze to get snobbish about. I think some of those people are even nuttier than I am. I think the answer to the question in this thread would be yes, but we'll just have to buy some more bad red wine and experiment. I also think that A. absinthum ethanolic extracts have a unique psychoactive signature that has nothing to do with A. calamus, and is as distinct as Cannabis. Perhaps some of us are more sensitive to it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted June 8, 2004 Originally posted by Talby: Some of you may have read my account of an A. calamus experience a few issues back in the Entheogen Review. You mean the one where you were severely ill out in the desert? A couple of points to keep in mind are that thujone expriments (both clinical and anecdotal) have shown a fair degree of activity even though this activity was not entirely the same as that of absinthe. The other is that someone on this forum (gomaos??) boiled down a wormwood extract (ie distilled all the oil off) and got strong effects from the non-volatile residue. This latter point does nothing to explain the activity of absinthe, but it does mean that tinctures should never be compared with properly distilled absinthe or essential oil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Talby Posted June 8, 2004 I should be saying wormwood or artemisia-effect rather than thujone. I sense a similarity in that staring-into-space kind of effect that real absinthe gives me, in this bargain-basement wine extract, which really doesn't taste worse than putting lilies into wine, in my opinion. quote: You mean the one where you were severely ill out in the desert? :D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
puffinstuf87 Posted June 8, 2004 Heres a picture of the salvia liquor - the one with the salvia label on it. Its not from mexico, its from spain - but sold on the internet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Benzedrine Posted June 8, 2004 electro: Why distill the wormwood soaked high proof alcohol again, please explain this. Why distill a liquer, surely this is, at best, wasting product at worst you will end up with plain normal alcohol. Remember distillation removes impurities and wormwood will surely be somewhat or completely removed in the process. Also you state that your getting a 60% to 40%, alcohol to water mix after from distilling a mash consisting of high proof alcohol(60%+) and wormwood. How would you manage this!?!?! I am experienced in using a still to produce alcohol but I have never see nor heard of someone ending up with more water then they started with! Two ways I would make a Absinthe replica: Zero effort method: Steep leaves of wormwood in strong vodka for ten days, shaking once a day. Strain out the wormwood and mix 0.75 oz of anise flavouring per quart. You will probably want to add brown sugar syrup to this but it depends on taste, a few teaspoons of glycerin may also be desired but are very optional. Age at least two days. Advanced method: Steam distill wormwood on its own to remove some of the bitter tatse. Dilute pure ethanol with water till its about 150 proof, add wormwood oil and steep aniseed, star anise, fennel, coriander, hyssop, and lemonbalm into the mixture. Steep for at least ten days shaking every day, strain and filter afterwards. Age for two weeks at a bare minimum. Replace wormwood in the above with sage to make a product that I don't think will be nearly as good as I believe there is something more then the thujone in absinthium. I think sage could be a replacement but other wormwoods would be more desirable including the insanely common tree or roman wormwood. [of course all of the above is theoretical and only presented in a information as what could be to my knowledge be construed as what may be considered a criminal activity.] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bloodbob Posted June 8, 2004 quote: Originally posted by Benzedrine: [QB] electro: Why distill the wormwood soaked high proof alcohol again, please explain this. Why distill a liquer, surely this is, at best, wasting product at worst you will end up with plain normal alcohol. Remember distillation removes impurities and wormwood will surely be somewhat or completely removed in the process. Because A) you need a high perecentage of alchohol for the thujone to remain in solution remeber pouring it over ice and it clouds because the oils are coming out. Its a bit like steam distillation but less effective ( as it isn't as hot ) you still are displacing the oil vapours in the worm wood. C) you possible don't want all the flavours from teh previous alcohol your after a specific flaour. Anyway those are all guesses. quote: The other is that someone on this forum (gomaos??) boiled down a wormwood extract (ie distilled all the oil off) and got strong effects from the non-volatile residue. This latter point does nothing to explain the activity of absinthe, but it does mean that tinctures should never be compared with properly distilled absinthe or essential oil. Now this actually does makes some sense because some of the recipies I have seen tell you to after you've done the distillation you add More wormwood and aniseed etc and heat/refulx. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted June 8, 2004 Originally posted by Benzedrine:[QB] electro: Why distill the wormwood soaked high proof alcohol again, please explain this. Taste .... ..Remember distillation removes impurities and wormwood will surely be somewhat or completely removed in the process. -- yes it would, if one were to distill with reflx ... as it is you take it past 80, then through to 100 and steam distill (which WILL carry the essential oils across into the distillate but not water soluble crap that tastes bad) Also you state that your getting a 60% to 40%, alcohol to water mix after from distilling a mash consisting of high proof alcohol(60%+) and wormwood. How would you manage this!?!?! because it is distilling so badly ! lol ... because you let extra water come across so it can bring flavours and actives other than alcohol across...(while leaving the water soluble chems that dont steam distill and dont taste all that good) I am experienced in using a still to produce alcohol but I have never see nor heard of someone ending up with more water then they started with! it isnt ending up with more water ... note that i said if you are distilling, add more water and seep another week (total of 2 weeks) ... re your methids .. to each his own .. i was simply presenting the bare minimum for each way .. *shrug* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Benzedrine Posted June 9, 2004 quote: it isnt ending up with more water ... note that i said if you are distilling, add more water and seep another week (total of 2 weeks) ... You are correct I missed that line, I apologise. Though I still disagree because stilling at high temperatures will clog a stills pipes, cloud the distillate and journey into the red zone. Also anyone who own a still in the first place can quite easily do a steam distillation. But you are still correct to each his own methods. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted June 9, 2004 the only difference between the two methods is that yours distills the wormwood seperatley to the alcohol ... which will only take the chemicals that form an azeotrope with water (steam distillation) ... doing it all together will cloud the distillate (with flavour actives and impurities) as it will bring across chemicals that form an azeotrope first with ethanol as it comes across then with the water .. a double steam distillation with the first "steam" being ethanol vapour... Maybe your way will taste better because of less impurities .. i just follow the original (well so called original) methods from the net which say to distill all at once (as perhaps some of the non oil soluble compounds in the wormwood are the active aswell...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JumpedAngel Posted June 10, 2004 while researching bay-rum and the distillation of bay-oil a while ago I came across a bit of info which might be of help to you bloodbob, in fact I would be trying this one out for myself if it were legal. quote: "Cask rum is often used to blend with various herbs and spices to produce some potent mixtures. This is 'spice'. Indeed, any herb or spice might do, but popular local additions are cinnamon or rosemary. Then there is the infamous 'bois bandé'. Medically proven to induce a state of how shall we put it, tumescence, several cases a year are reported in countries like Trinidad where unfortunates are unable to 'get it down'. In Dominica, it's illegal to take the bark from the bois bandé tree, though whether that to protect the tree or the individual I'm not sure. Spice In Dominica, 'spice' is the generic name given to any rum to which a local herb or spice has been added and allowed to impart its particular flavour. The most common 'spiced' rums are: spice which has had Cinnamon added nannie which is Rosemary l'apsent which is absinthe/aniseed pueve which is creole for 'pepper' Spice is an acquired taste, best drunk in one go... " For my money it would not make that much difference weather one were to use wormwood or sage, infact I am familiar with a gnome who has done it with the infamous duboisia hopwoodii (pituri), this is not said to be a pleasant drink, something akin to drinking pure nicotine in flavour, I think the trick might be to drink it quickly (in one go). more details should be available on the following site:- http://www.avirtualdominica.com/rum.htm#spice Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
