JumpedAngel

A gnome I know was recently forced to modify his tobacco smoking habits due to financial constraints, the tax man and several other facists came looking to get blood from his stone and he found to his dismay that for a little while he was flat broke and could not afford his $60 a week tobacco smoking habit, so like a clever little gnome he went looking through his stash of all things wonderfull that he had secreted away in many magic glass caverns over the years being mindfull that the withdrawal from such a habit may cause some whaling and gnashing of teeth. It is now 3 weeks since he had his last smoke of tobacco and although he can now afford it again he is reluctant to go back to his evil ways, as he had tried to give it up voluntarily many times in the past without success and just accidentally found a way to beat it using a painless alternative, so he asked me to post this topic being mindfull that others wishing to do likewise may not neccesarily have access to the same alternatives, however he wants to put it out there as he feels he has made some interesting and unexpected observations along the way. Whithout thinking twice, he began this unplanned adventure by opening the magic glass cavern containing pituri which he had not even glanced at for well over a decade and did this with an incantation of the magic words "Duboisia Hopwoodii", thinking at the time that the nicotine contained therein would be a wonderfull way to forget the tobacco pangs as he had not originally intended to give up smoking in the traditional sence and so he took to experimenting with various ways of smoking the herb as he did not wish to chew it and does not know of any way to make a self-adhesive pituri patch. This herb is said to contain far larger doses of nicotine than tobacco and after about a week of smoking pituri straight he began to form a few interesting observations. 1) He had been dealing with two different addictions all along, the addiction to the habit of smoking was as stong as the addiction to the nicotine, these became seperable when substituting pituri for tobacco. 2) The nicotine in the pituri was not as strong, or not the same, or not as addictive as that in tobacco despite the fact that it is said to contain huge amounts of nicotine as well as nor-nicotine, it did not satisfy the same craving as tobacco normally does but did substitute a similar gratification, so that when he really needed to, he could get some gratification which in itself was non-addictive or at least far less addictive, this was discovered on one occasion when some tobacco was smoked by accident without having realized that he had all but beaten the addiction to tobacco nicotine when this happened. 3) A lesser observation was that the flavour of pituri was less palatable, almost like smoking gum leaves and took a little getting used to. 4) After weening himself off tobacco for almost 3 weeks he became aware of the fact that he was actually getting a bigger nicotine hit by getting second hand smoke than the hit from smoking pituri first hand. 5) He has since been experimenting with other smokable herbs in combination with the pituri but has not as yet found a suitably aromatic replacement for the rum & wine flavoured tobacco whose flavour he used to love. 6) He now smokes about 5 pituri smokes a day, more out of boredom or habitual addiction than from chemical addiction, whereas 3 weeks ago he was smoking between 40 and 50 STRONG tobacco cigarettes each day, and the only time he gets that pang of addiction in his solar plexus now is when he gets a whif of tobacco cigarette smoke from a second hand source. 7) The glass cave is now coming down towards empty and the gnome is considering the options of another desert trek or perhaps a smokable alternative for the sake of the habbit. Keep tuned to this station, experiment is continueing.

some folks may recieve imaginary bags of pituri today, others may need to wait until the new year, if there is an outbreak of mould in the bag then this is because it hasn't fully dried prior to being sent out, in this case place the contents into a paper bag and place the paper bag in a warm dry window sill for a couple of days, otherwise u might try drying the stuff in the oven or the microwave. ok, i have to own up, this batch is not as strong as the last, not too bad though, but still lacking in a little bite. if anything, i think the problem is that the drupes were all removed prior to fermentation and set aside for trading and/or planted in the ground and/or set aside for disection/experimentation etc., it would appear then that the flesh of the drupe carries in it a fair proportion of the active constituents of the plant and maybe some flavouring as well. that being said, anyone who hasn't tried pituri before would not necessarily be disappointed, it is still very obviously 'there', it is still very much more active than many of these new age ethno plants of questionable and/or marginal effect that some of u here may be playing with and it will at least give a fair indication of where this stuff will be heading in future. i guess it should be said that much of the effect of any plant will depend largely on the metabolism of the individual concerned, therefore it is best that u first do an allergy test prior to commencing any sort of trial or experiment and ensure that there is no likelyhood for there to be a toxic type reaction on u. to do a basic allergy test, rub a bit of your own siliva on the inside of your forearm and while it is still damp rub a little of the plant substance on that damp patch, make a note of the time and check for any inflamantion within an hour or so, next, lick some of the plant substance and spread the flavour of it inside the mouth around the inside of the lips, again wait for a reasonable period of time to ensure that no adverse reactions occur, be sure not to consume any food/drink during this 'waiting period'. although very basic the above tests will give a good indication as to whether the individual is likely to suffer an adverse reaction to that particular plant substance, please note these tests are not the be all and end all and if doubt exists then it is always best to abstain. a more comprehensive series of tests is available on-line generally for bio-assaying of new food-stuffs but is as effective for bio-assaying plant substances, check out -> http://www.wilderness-survival.net/plants-1.php if this link does not work go to the http://www.wilderness-survival.net and look up the link to 'edibility of plants', the site itself is typically gung-ho in the true american style and should provide much amusement and education, please note that i am in no way affiliated with the actual site itself and that this is in no way any kind of 'spam'. to trial the pituri, begin with a small quid, a quid is that volume of plant matter held in the mouth at the one time, a small quid is about the diameter of a pencil and about an inch long (25mm), the occasional pinch of baking soda may be added to aid in the release of alkaloids, the native habit allowed for the removal of the quid from the mouth at any time, and the recommencement of chewing when desireous of another hit, the quid is never swallowed, best personal effects for me start up to 1 hour after commencement of chewing, fresh herb is added to the quid when desired, i must state here that i know myself to be different or some type of exception therefore i will not dwell on my personal experiences with the herb. larger quantities of herb may be used on an 'its up to u' basis, as i have no desire to tread that path at the present, past experiments with a stronger herb to make a tincture have yielded some interesting party-time/doof type memories, however i do not encourage bingeing with substances that are as little known and understood as this one is, nor do i recommend mixing with other substances unless with the utmost of care and under observation of a sober minder. a larger quid may be 4 times the size quoted above and is known to be much more effectatious. leaving a quantity of ground-up herb to soak in a glass of water overnight in the refridgerator may be an alternative to chewing, refridgeration would be desirable to keep down the possibility of mould growth (filter before use thru your mamma's panties), the ground-up herb soaked in gin or some other spirit might also yield a trialable product however more difficult to consume and lower in effect, but let me say, that outside of myself and a few close personal friends, i know of no-one who has trialed and/or experimented with this plant substance, and know of no creadible reference pertaining to the traditional usage of the herb and would therefore urge care and caution at every turn as if it were a brand new discovery with just as much potential to destroy as to delight. that said, i hope those people refered to above will share their imaginary experiences here or at least rate the product in comparable terms over the coming weeks, this type of info is required to rebuild a tradition around the plant and u are the lucky people who have been selected to do this, i know that some folks are shy but it realy doesnt take much trouble to relate the experiences of an imaginary acquaintance or to create another persona, honesty is the best policy in such instances and working together in this way we may be able to rediscover a useful friend. :D

relax hebrew dude, some species prefer to sharpen their claws on human flesh, u will learn more about this as u learn more about the intricacies and mysteries of the 'academic' sciences, i have been toying with the idea of re-naming myself 'Mulga II' but only for the sake of pressing that now irresistable T button. various ideas i have been turning over during this brief break are expressed below, i am now slowly beggining to realize that useing 'that' name for any product distributed under any guise which does indeed bare the 'same' name as Torstens product, Henrys product or even Adrians peoduct (should such ever appear) may indeed be a mistake with serious consequences, despite the fact that i believe i have demonstrated clearly why Torsten and co. have no more right to use 'that' name than i have (below), not unless they were to adopt a name such as 'post historic traditional pituri' or some other meaningful definition which would highlight the fact that the 'new' traditional product can in no way be demonstrated to be the same as the 'original' traditional product irrespective of which area it was grown in. unfortunately Torsten has now succeeded in perverting what was to be a thread dealing with a particular preparation and totally confusing it with his own, also, for 'other reasons' cited below, i have decided to terminate all experimentation with my herb for the moment at least an cease distribution under any guise whatsoever, including analysis and/or research, some serious issues are raised below which i had all but forgotten concerning the product which will apparently soon be becoming available under 'that' name and i want to be certain that no 'association' can be made, even by accident, between my product and the 'new traditional' products, created by Torsten an Co. i include the material below more for my own fun than for Torstens, or at least this is the way it appears to me as i write this stuff (i may live to regret it but who knows). i maintain the right to refer to the actual plant as 'pituri' irrespective of which area it is from, and will continue to refer to it as such in this and other documents but alluding only to the plant and not the herb that i prepared from it. reacent rantings:- quote: What the hell are you talking about?The point was that aboriginal tradition changes on an 'as per needs basis' and that fact has been accepted in law but this point seems lost on u. so whatever u choose to 'believe' of this 'tradition' will always remain questionable in 'fact' including this 'new' word 'kudna', where did u reference it from? can u give a documented source which extends back to the times when the 'original untainted' tradition was being practiced? think carefully about your own claims! quote: Bottom line is that JA doesn't accept the chemotype concept even though there is plenty of (mostly unpublished) scientific evidence for it.putting words in my mouth?, i understand the concept clearly enough but dont accept the emphasis u place on it. as for 'unpublished scientific evidence', u will have to excuse me once again for the poverty of my 'academic' education but i never heard of such a thing, i knew that the rules for creating 'proof of evidence' within these 'academic' sciences was preaty lax but i never heard of anything like 'unpublished creadible scientific evidence' in any science, art or philosophy for that matter, if u intend to base your arguments on unsubstanciated dribble then u will have to prove yourself a better liar than this. quote: Are you now claiming that Duboisia hopwoodii was used in all areas it grows (or at least a lot more than just pituringa)? Are you saying that the knowledge of this was just lost and only the pituringa area people remember? If you are (and I really don't know if you are), then do you have any evidence for this or are you just making assumoptions?are u putting words into my mouth again Torsten?, relateing back to one particular article that we often shit-fight over (Pituri, An Australian Aboriginal drug, Pamela Watson" we get:- 'Accounts of the role of pituri in Aboriginal life are incomplete...' 'no social studies of pituri consumption were undertaken at a time when use was current...' 'Thus, information about pituri is fragmentary, and largely depends upon what Europeans found pertinent and chose to record in explorers’ journals, accounts of missionaries and early botanists, and pastoral memoirs...' i'm not trying to 'make up' any new theories at all that are 'based' on these old records and observations as i find that using some critical thinking techniques coupled with 'repeatable scientific communications' principles and some 'statistical science' it is imposible to conclude with any degree of certainty that it was the drug 'nicotine' which was originally being targeted in the now completely 'lost' original 'traditional' preparation/s, i actually find that entire 'fixation' of yours to be laudible and possibly irresponsible suggesting possible legal implications also. i dont want to contribute to this 'recorded knowledge' in any way, shape or form, what i am saying is that ALL the old records are tarnished in some way, useless, pointless and virtually valueless (wearing ethnobotanical hat) and should be discarded for they serve only to confuse, offer only partial truths which are dangerous and it will never be possible to confirm any of it now that this original 'tradition' is indeed LOST. therefore, seeing as we now have access to the plant again and a little experiencial knowledge to guide us, we can simply assimilate the herb anew using bio-assay techniques, as a 'new' process/preparation, not neccesarily based in any way on the tainted old 'supposed traditional' knowledge which is impossible to define, and specifically avoiding that which we already know to be dangerous. before u put more words in my mouth Torsten (wearing anthropological hat) the article refered to above is true and concise and appears to be accurate to the best of my knowledge (such is the neccesity of dealing with these 'academic' sciences where the rule/s of evidence change from one science to another with no clear indication being given when a supposed 'expert' like Torsten flitters from the one to the other). quote: LOL. I am warning people about smoking mouldy herbs. I do that on all forums and mailing lists because it is very dangerous. I am also warning people to be aware of what exactly they are consuming. In ethnobotany we consume some very dangerus herbs and preparations on the basis that people have been doing so safely for hundreds or thousands of years. We trust in this experiential knowledge. By taking a related species or an untrialled chemotype we are not building on the present knowledge, but we are entering virgin territory. There then is no traditional safety guarantee....'safely', oh, thats a total joke Torsten, you are saying this to someone who has had to eat moulds to survive in third-world refugee-camp shitholes, but of course neither that nor the reference concerning microbiology of food (and herb) that i have at my finger tips, nor the fact that since 1991 i had comprehensive monthly blood tests, could possibly outweigh the weight of ownership u have on this site, i would have thought that u might instead encourage these same people to take care when ingesting Bufotenine nasally rather than show praise and admiration as u have recently done if indeed your motive is trully 'safety'. quote: By consuming a material that was INTENTIONALLY discarded by traditional consumers we do one worse and actually ignore the warnings that traditional knowledge provides for us.there is only one thing more dangerous than a partial truth... what fucking traditional knowledge?????... quote: You are deceptively passing material onto people that the majority of researchers believe does not have any traditional use, yet you present to have this ethnobotanical safety approval. As I said before, I think it is great that you make this material available. I have a problem with the fact that you are misrepresenting it. I also have a problem with the mould thing, because you present this as 'traditional knowledge' and yet there is no evidence of this anywhere other than your own suppositions. 'deceptively'?, 'ethnobotanical safety approval'?, got your hand preganent yet mate?, i said we should start from scratch and re-build the knowledge, and i have assayed the stuff first hand over a decade, and i have provided a bio-assaying procedural link which appears to be far superior to anything that i have seen on 'your' 'ethnobotanic' site, yet u distribute herbs which are potentially far more dangerous than this for profit and say things like this about me?, perhaps i should be seeking 'legal' advice rather than 'ethnobotanic' reference material, dude. as for this 'ethnobotanical safety approval' statement of yours, this is the joke of all jokes, this is the statement which will see u in court one day, this statement shows clearly that u and henry and even adrian are 'stoners' rather than 'ethnobatanists' because if either one of u had ever researched the wealth of documented and published material available through the 'Mankind' and 'Oceania' journals then u would have seen and been aware of the problems associated with cancerous erruptions on the individuals who use this variety of pituri that is high in nicotine content, so is nicotine non-toxic?, non-carcinogenic perhaps?, especially in these highly refined varieties that u are distributing without any kind of warning? quote: Is that what you call the people who tried your material? I guess considering that your material does not have any traditional use, nor is your preparation method traditional, the people who are comsuming this are truely lab rats. The fact that you yourself have tested it is in no way an assurance that it doesn't cause any damage.... quite the contrary it appears.u want me to provide guinea pigs, lab rats, whatever, for your experiments?, what am i, some kind of fucking pimp?, dont u yourself credit them with the intelligence to make up their own minds? if they want to fuck with an untreated herb? of dubious origin?, of unusually high and refined nicotine content, then thats fine by me but only if u tell them first, but u want me to hand over my data for your purposes? without question? for purposes which are not clear, like when u asked for my photos of the plant in the desert perhaps? u give no bio-assay report? or recomendations of any sort whatsoever on how the herb can or should be consumed?, yeh!, but i'm the 'bad boy' because i refered to them as 'lab rats', well i'm sure they would survive my insults if that had been my intention but are u sure that they will survive what u have in mind for them, for myself, i would not ingest any quantity of that untreated herb of dubious origin even if my own mother stuck it in front of me without at least asking the obvious questions, questions the answers to which u failed to provide. and yes i particularly urge people, even u Torsten, to at least seek out the data on the carcinogenic aspects of your 'traditional pituri' that 'have been' published in journals like 'Mankind' and 'Oceania' and to view them first hand at your local state library, they show many graphically illustrated images of large cancerous growths behind these peoples ears where they had stored their pituri quid in the traditional native way. but of course Torsten, u have your banner of 'ethnobotanical safety approval' to hide behind, tell me dude, where is your banner of 'ethnobotanic responsibility' hiding?, surely not behind the 'poisons for profit' banner i hope, i'm just wondering what some formal body like the anti-cancer council, for example, might do with u if they aquire the said documentation and decide to make an example of u, be grateful that u only have me to deal with (for the moment). quote: Other than your own consumption of Duboisia hopwoodii from various areas you have not provided any evidence at all that contradicts current research.again, what and whose fucking current research, yours???, then publish the fucker at least! or make it available in some other way because really mate, on the strength of current knowledge, having to pay for that would only add insult to injury. quote: You have had plenty of opportunity to do so, but dismiss anyone's research other than your own. The people of the pituringa area are proud of their tradition and they know their stuff used to be traded many hundred of kilomters into areas that have plenty of their own Duboisia hopwoodii. Your arrogance of dismissing their culture by overriding it with your own singular experience is laughable.[ this didn't need to be here and any of the remaining racist shit is only left as a showpiece for this bloke's ugly racism- DL ] ne by other people and then claimed it as their own, in this particular case it will be interesting to see if they go 'power happy' and try to claim this knowledge as being their 'sole' right under copyright law, or weather they themselves would want to face the responsibilities which now go with clear carcenogenic consequences. i am painfully aware of the various shit fights these people with whom u claim such admirable empathy have already caused in various courts of australian law when challenging the use of dots in paintings for example, even when they dont resemble their own form of art, and the use of the circles within circles, claiming sole right to the use of this symbol 'universally' despite the known use of the symbol in ireland for over a thousand years, what the fuck are we to do?, deface all irish monuments for their sake?, [ this didn't need to be here - DL ] u on the other hand 'do' claim to be useing and distributing a preparation made in accordance with some native 'tradition' sanctioned under the banner of 'ethnobotanical safety approval' but offer no proof of evidence as does this Henry character u speak of so highly, so how is it that u can get away with stealing 'their' tradition for the sake of your business profits, hmmmm? please explain. i understand perfectly well your argument over semantics, however the stuff i sent out as a sample for analysis is no less a preparation made from the 'pituri bush' than yours. and yours can never be demonstrated to be any more 'traditional' than mine unless u 'bend' the word 'traditional' to include 'only recent tradition'. quote: Death isn't the only possible consequence of being foolish with toxic plantsu didnt offer this advice to that chap recently snorting Bufotenine, did u? i take it that according to u the snorting of Bufotenine is 'safe'? and non-toxic? quote: There are dozens of people who have done field work on this in the last few years and many have found exciting and new things. Your observatiosn are simply not supported by any of them and hence I prefer to go with those people who have done the most extensive and thorough study rather than an individual who is reinventing the wheel.'exciting and new things'?, but then again u will never say who or what these are, what they disagree with about what i've said or anything else that could be considered or analyzed rationally, i would love to see u use this argument in a court of law, are u sure they arn't just 'brown noseing' or pressing the T button?, can u even name one who isnt affraid to come out of the shadow and face me and stand accountable as i have done for their opinion, gee Torsten, i am so impressed with the quality of your experts as well as your expertise. quote: How do you know? Just because you haven't keeled over doesn't mean it is no toxic.you are right here, it could indeed be 'toxic', i have read that most capsicums are toxic too, and one thing that happens when i eat capsicums is that i get a bad case of indegestion, and this is usually from small quantities too, i can't possibly imagine how bad i would feel if i consumed a kg of capsicums over a period of approx. 2 months, i know for a fact that i would be a very sick puppy so i would never do that, as for the herb?, been there, done that, so once again, whats your point? (everything is poison, nothing is poison, old cliche). as previously mentioned, comprehensive blood tests done monthly on myself since 91 showed no sigificant pustule or blood toxicity variations. further more i have had a look at a current reference which cites 'the' two 'moulds' which are known to have produced toxic by-products on herbs on a historical basis, these are Aspergillus flavus known to grow on cotton seed products and peanut meal, and which is the most common mould found on red and black pepper (identified by blue fluorescence under uv) and Aspergillus ochraceus (identified by greenish fluorescence under uv) and is quoted in U.S. patent no 1,313,209 covering the induction of desirable changes during the fermentation of coffee, it would be academic as to which would be more toxic when compared to say, something like that yopo mix or this concentrated forms of nicotine for that matter, unless of course u claim u know better than Ayres/Mundt/Sandine - Microbiology of Foods 1980 p249->, although both moulds are said to produce toxic by-products these toxins appear to be active on foul, swime and trout rather than humans, and the moulds bear little resemlance to 'my mould' (which i have a long history of eating raw and fresh as well as stale and old), which until i know better will remain nameless, at the very least mate i can refer back to my sources, so now u tell me what fucking toxin u are talking about and how this relates to the preparation i made and we will all see if u are spouting shit or not, ok dude?. quote: Self serving?? You are selling/trading drupes and herbal material. I am not.so now i'm selling herb? yeah i wish!, the trade was consistently focused on a rare commodity, that being fresh/viable drupe for propogation purposes, the herbal sample was offered for experimentation/analysis as a bonus for completed trades as i did get fucked around, some folks arnt quite up to keeping their word as i am, and i sent out drupe as quickly as i could to keep it as fresh as i could in all good faith, however some folks it appears maintain the right to change their offer after they recieve what they want, i tend to put individuals of this type onto my black list, never to be acknowledged again, but why would someone feel guilty about something like that anyway? when accused by someone who has based at least one entire business on distributing, among other things, herbal products?. quote: You are marketing a product with no documented traditional use. I am not. You are selling mouldy herbs. I am not. All I am interested in is that the scarce amount of traditional knowledge that is recorded so far isn't diluted and confused by someone trying to make enough money to cover his next holiday in the desert.i have mentioned what i think of your fucking precious traditional knowledge havent i?, now if i say it again then u will no doubt accuse me of spouting, but if you are going down this road then let me ask you about something that i've been wondering about, as i have seen reference to 'Henrys stuff' mentioned elsewhere on your site, so was this stuff traditionally prepared? according to what documentation/tradition? oh please do tell, i wont cast a slur on Henry, i promise, not until he crosses my path and reveals his motive anyway, hehe, but your motives are clear enough, so tell me, have u ever advertised EB on the basis that Henry (and his preparation) would be there? did you ever allow, encourage or facilitate the distribution of this substance through one of your 'business ventures'?, and did you ever distribute your own 'traditional' herb at said venue/s, oh do tell, do u feel guilty about something perhaps? it is really stupid to go down this road u know Torsten, and i would urge u to be certain of your facts before making accusations along these lines as i think that u stand more to lose than i do, especially when useing such words as selling and marketing and implying that i am in some way profiteering?, with garbage like that coming my way it comes as no surprise that a wrong impression has been created that i am selling this stuff, and the consequent enquiries that i am still getting now are more your doing than mine. quote: I've already elaborated in other threads about what I think these 'drying' processes may effect.where? quote: And no, I think they are definitely more complex than just drying. But for that you would need to understand a little chemistry and my last attempt at explaining it didn't seem to sink in with you.refresh me, which particular 'disagreement' was that? u wouldn't be making interpretations on my behalf again would u Torsten? quote: Just like ignoring my cultivation notes meant the certain demise of your own plants (while mine and adrian's is flourishing), ignoring the research done by others is always going to waste time. That does not mean research should not be challenged (quite the contrary) but ignoring all of it is simply wasting your own and other people's time.u didnt make them public till after mine died and even then it was preaty sketchy stuff, (no pics.), and i thought i made it perfectly clear to u back then (publicly) that this might not have happened if u had shared rather than hidden your observations. quote: I am not denying that you may find an excellent way of making a consumable form of Duboisia hopwoodii from various areas, but then that is YOUR preparation and not a traditional method. For many people that makes a big difference - especially in regards to safety.so who died and made u pituri god?, u have no sole right to determine what pituri is, was or ever shall be, as far as i am concerned, pituri is 'any' herbal preparation based on D. hopwoodii otherwise known by its 'common name' as the 'pituri bush', it can be fresh herb (as u stated) it can be mixed with native tobacco (as others have stated), it can be emu poison, or it can be dried, poached, char-grilled or farted on for all i care, it is still valid to call it pituri, it is still a preparation made from the plant with 'that' 'common name', and not subject by law to the exclusive use of yourself or any aboriginal community that i am aware of under the guise of some traditionally prepared herb subject to this pathetic new concept of 'ethnobotanical safety approval' that u happened to make up to suit your purposes. [ 04. January 2005, 07:06: Message edited by: Darklight ]

it is a bit unfair of u Torsten to bring up words like 'kudna', when u know damn well that your o/s clients at least will not be familiar with native aboriginal tradition or the mechanisms of its developement and evolution, these people are unlikely to be able to grasp the finer points of the 'secrets' behind say 'secret womens business' for example, nor the fact that these people lost their tradition when they first learnt to lie, a good parable at this point might well be the garden of eden myth, another explanation might be that they didn't lose their tradition and we didn't steal it from them, they mearly forgot it when they could no longer remember the difference between the their old truths and their new convenient lies, poetic justice dont you think?, but then again even trained proffessionals like u claim to be have been falling for that one for a long time now, the south australian Hindmarsh Island bridge debarcle mearly brought out into the open what clowns like u refuse to acknowledge. also dude, there appears to be a few pages missing from your character assassination handbook, but u are in luck, as i can give u some personal tuition with that if u like , firstly let me say that i have no intention of encouraging people who traded for drupe with me to trial your brew on your behalf, if they wish to reveal themselves to u of their own accord then that is their own personal business and good luck to them although it would not surprise me if u had frightened many of them away from ever considering this herb again, it seems clear that u are full of doubt about it yourself, it is obvious that u dont feel comfortable enough with it to have written and distributed a report on your own product so what makes u think that i'm going to encourage these trusting souls into your care? find your own lab rats!, now comes the real test for all this selfserving pituringa area bullshit that you've been spouting eh? cheers hebrew, tell me dude, weren't u afraid that u were going to die or something?, maybe u had better check that your testicles didnt drop off in the process, he-he, according to Torstens mister know-it-all manual both u and i as well as many of my friends and family should all be dead by now, but especially me, he-he. shows the value of building on someone elses poor quality observations then calling it science, but by all means Torsten, u go right ahead and keep building on it. as for smoking the stuff?, i know its so easy to do but try not to waste much more in smoke, i know i shouldnt talk as i smoked at least a kg of the stuff earlier this year, i would not be suggesting it if i had not trialed it myself first, but chewing it will give the most interesting results. please avoid using calcium hydroxide, i have had much first hand experience with it around solomon islands and PNG, use baking soda instead, less corrosive on the teeth. you would have to be blind or retarded not to have noticed the mould Torsten, as the plant and the mould apear to be inseperable, your ignorance in this regard not only speaks for itself but also highlights and underscores the quality of your supposed 'knowledge', and again it is not toxic and no, i'm not dead, just dead tired of listening to this ill-informed scare-mongering self-serving dribble, it has been noted in the past that u are a control freak, i would go further than that without hesitation, i have found the flavour of the mould to be as expected fungus-i and the bitterness of the herb to be reduced markedly when compared to the untreated fresh dry herb. u know of two ways to cure the herb Torsten?, i wonder if you would feel certain that either one will produce a consumable product, i have a fair idea that u would not be fear mongering anywhere near as much with your own products, even the untested ones, i wonder if it has occured to u that the only thing u actually know is perhaps two ways of drying the herb? i mean, here i am with a decade of experience with this stuff and i'm still having trouble drying it, work it out einstein, what do u actually think u know that u didnt actually get at least second hand from someone elses books or observations?.

there is a strong relationship between that mould and that plant, i look at it the same as that blue mould with certain cheeses.

quote: LOL, that exactly the way I felt a week after my trip But I remeber you saying that you do not accept anyone's knowledge until you have tried it your own way. Pity that it was at the expense of the plant though ke?... you're trippin dude, i never commented on your desert trip, i dont remember seeing that much of a write-up on your trip or any images either, as for the expense of that plant, well, someone had to do it, and the fact that i have shared this information may mean that someone else may not need to kill another plant unnecessarily to find out the same information all over again, so i guess it is a pity that u were unable to make images available back then otherwise i may have been saved from doing what i did , also, i have yet to locate any sensory organ on the plant, let alone a brain, so im not sure that it suffered any more than that lettuce that i had for dinner yum-yum-yum. seriously dude, your looking at the biology of the plant and how it has adapted to its environment, and perhaps even some speculation as to its evolutionary origin?... i on the other hand am not a botanist and couldn't care less about a bunch of inane stamp-collector-type theories, i view the plants association with water from a survivalist point of view, my speculations can be put into practice, i can go out there the next time and by then will have constructed the necessary tests that i need to determine the usefullness of the storage vessels, and yes i may need to kill more plants to do this, please excuse me, my theories of the plant are concerned with the plant representing the difference between life and death out there, that is roughly where i want to take this, as for not accepting anything that i can't prove or demonstrate, well, i hope i never have to make an apology for that, thats the difference between knowledge and belief, science and religion, repeatability and regurgitation. theories are a bit like sMelbournes weather, if you dont like it just wait five minutes. quote: And I hope I am right, cos imagine doing a subscission without an anaesthetic dont assume that it is a drug that helps them mitigate the pain of subscission, i am certainly no expert on secret aboriginal practices and i dont pretend to speak for aboriginal people or in their defence either but my suspicion is that subscission was a ritual lesson in the management and tolerance of pain which proved an individuals claim to manhood, i would be so diaspointed if i was to find that this rite of passage turned out to be something that u cheated your way through with the use of drugs, also, try to be mindfull that these people chucked spears at one anothers legs to settle arguments so i would expect that they had a different threashold and understanding of pain to u and i and a different way to deal with pain in general. quote: May I suggest that you don't? I presume you got a root section with some suckers on it. ... cheers, i was gonna leave it go for a while anyway, although i can balance my desires against superstitions, i have yet to account for the many examples of intuition which have saved my bacon on so many occasions. i guess it can wait till i get back out there with my butchers knife, hehe.

it is the silly season, and it's always so difficult to find a bit of clear headed quality time during this part of the year, so many parties, so many distractions, so many idiots on the road, for now all i can say is that the plant has taught me a few new lessons, most significant being to do with its association with water, it will take some time to make full comparisons, most of it is still drying after fermentation although i have had a little taste, for those of u who are ignorant, dont smoke it unless u want to give up smoking tobacco, it will not get u stoned anyway, as for chewing it, i am beggining to see how some individual might have decided that it would make an anaesthetic as there is a vague, 'almost there' numbing of the tongue, however if your chewing it and watching the cricket (oi, oi, oi), you wont even know it's there until u rush out for another cold can during the commercial break, i still find it disorienting, i have yet to try it on a long trek, s-o-o-o-o-o-o-n, there has been no anxiety and the pulse rate has remained low and steady. i had hoped by now that i would have honoured my intention to provide a sample of the fermented herb to those who completed their trades with me, however, the plant is its own teacher, and the teacher is not working to my timetable but rather his own, somehow you just have to grin and accept this, but i hope to have some more stuff written up for all concerned soon and those lucky people mentioned above should be grinning merrily by the end of the year?, i hope, s-o-o-o-o-o-o-n anyway. as for the prisoner, well, it was tiny and doesnt warrant consumption anyway as it was not 'fermented', but i will dig it up and have a look at its joints, interestingly, i had a dream about it the night after i acknowledged its passing, i saw it in the dream and it seemed to be speaking to me and telling me that it was not really dead, go figure, not being superstitious i am able to look past the dream into my own subconscious desires and accept them as such but non-the-less will be carefull when i dig it up, and hopefully will have the time to record any significant information photographically at least.

thanks guys - hey Ed, for the one that u think is G.clandestina, the pod are not yet ripe so are still green, however, they are flat, and although difficult to see have that typical feature of the Desmodiums in that they are covered in tiny copper coloured hairs as are the stems and racemes also. too many other things turned up to mention, however there was a lovely american dogwood and delight of all delights a large white flowered Brugmansia tree, also something i think rev was recently looking for Physostigma venenosum, although i am not sure and would require confirmation on this one below. other things still in the mystery bag but slowly being checked out follow below, from left to right 1. another mystery creeper, 2. not a creeper but interesting non-the-less suspected of being an import, 3. of particular interest as it has an aroma indistinguishable from that of Damiana (Turnera diffusa) as i don't even have an credible image of Damiana yet it is difficult for me to say.

here is some plant porn of the creepy crawly variety, from left to rigt, 1. the common garden viriety pea (i think) in amongst a 6 foot tall tangle of bracken fern and blackberry making it totally impassable, 2. a morning glory among some blackberry, 3. (serious plant porn) something that could be a Dicranopteris below something else which is a complete mystery, 4. a native passionfruit? by all means chime in if you think u know. (i hate to kick-u-along rev but i'm still really looking forward to seeing that stuff on Desmodiums) i've been working up in the dandenong ranges for a few weeks, i havent had time to stop to smell the roses but i have made a mental note of some interesting stuff along the way, all sorts of creepy crawleys, today i had the opportunity to go up there with a camera, i did about 40 k on foot in 35 degree heat so it wasnt very pleasant but i did get a few candidates and also there were some that i know are still there but could not get to, one in particular, was a large red flowered legume with long saddle bags, pity i couldnt get to it today, had to turn back. the descriptions i have on the Desmodium species is very basic, my book says there are about 5 Desmodiums in about 88 climbing species in 29 climbing genera of the family fabaceae, all it says is flowers borne in errect clusters followed by thin pods, later it gets a bit more specific when it describes D.brachypodum, best descriptions i've seen so far were those based on images rev posted on another thread which showed the pod - > http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/cgi-bin...ic;f=2;t=001758 i have a couple of candidates and will explain why as i go along but the second one is still very iffy. below: what might be Desmodium but then again could be Glycine or Hardenbergia also, or maybe Kennedia, positive characteristics include: leaves are trifoliate and cospicuously veined, mauve pea-shaped flowers have a white standard and are borne on rigid racemes, stems covered in hairs, too early to tell about the pods as they are not ripe. below: this one could be anything, it has a leaf form of a Desmodium but could very easily be a Kennedia too, there was no flower or pod (too early), its just a possibility? other stuff that i ran across were a couple of what could have been Chorizema spp., some Clematis and stuff that i have no concept of where to begin with id-ing the next few months presents the best chance of turning up a native Desmodium, although i think i will also have to try some heathlands and wetlands too.

what kind of treatment was it Darcy? i havent had any movement yet and i have tried a number of fermentations, freezings, smokewater etc. what shits me is that u often get a quote saying, yes the seed germinates quickly but does not survive. yet no one ever tells ya how long it took, or what treatment was effective, i'm willing to go with patience and a watchfull eye for the moment. the prisoner that i brought home with me has died boo-hoo

Codonocarpus cotinifolius - although the book says that it was also within my range (SW-NSW) i didn't get to see any of it on my recent trip into the arid zone but then again i was searching only one particular type of micro environment and as far as i could see there might have been up to half a dozen different micro environments all within 5 clicks of one another as the crow flies. i did see D.hopwoodii of course and i have been trying to germinate some of that, for the record i planted some Codonocarpus cotinifolius seed (yours rev) into two of my pituri trays on Dec 02 2004, this being in that red desert sand medium, no movement yet, never mind the smoke water dude, i saw no sign watsoever that there had been fire out my way for at least a couple of decades, u have to be patient with desert plants, and some recent succesful germinations of desert lime have re-inforced this to me, these plants seem to be very 'season' dependant, i have put in a number of types of desert seeds for germination and will not be surpried if i go for up to a year before they move, i now realize that through my rashness i may have turffed out at least one perfectly good trayfull of desert lime seed, boo-hoo my loss. Codonocarpus cotinifolius seed sorry to hear that your gnome hasn't had the chance to do a road test on the bell fruit tree yet, the pituri 'herb' has now fermented and has been set out to dry, my gnome wants to do some quick tests on it to see how well it makes the insects buzz when used as an insecicide, our cherry trees are full of bugs and i used to soak my cigarette butts in water then spay the trees with it, it worked well but i dont smoke tobacco anymore and have no access to clean butts anymore either so i think we will have to use the pituri instead, who knows, trading pituri as an insecicide might be to best way to distribute it.

for the sake of a dollar it would be good just to cut some of their duboisia seed up and see how it fares with viability, hey phosphene, have u ordered from them before?, i spotted a few things that i would like. are they reliable?

rare - limited SWAP offer!! !!FOR ADVANCED CULTIVATORS ONLY!! 10 fresh drupes containing the most viable Duboisia hopwoodii (pituri) seed you are likely to see, harvested Nov 12, 2004. caveat emptor -> ***please note Duboisia hopwoodii (pituri) is not as yet known in cultivation, germinates with difficulty, and has not survived long on those rare occasions when it has germinated, it is strongly suspected of being a parasitic plant (by me) and it is unlikely that the seed or plant will survive long so please take this warning to heart and only apply if you are confident that you can achieve some kind of success with them or at least try to learn something from them.*** the kind of things i wouldn't mind being offered in return:- (unless otherwise stated would prefer small rooted cutting) Banisteriopsis spp. Ephedra spp. Vanilla-pod orchid Hoodia gordonii (seed) Mitragyana speciosa (if still legal?? well i can dream cant i??) Psychotria viridis Persoonia (W.A. spiral leaf form) or some quality lotus herb pm me ---> cheers :D

yeahhh he said pm him... *******ok folks - all gone *******anyone i havn't pm'ed yet will here from me soon. Darcy - are you asking about my pic or torstens, as far as my pics go the really immature drupes are light green, then they go to that creamy yellow, then to that light brown, then to a light grey/purple and finally to a purple/black when fully ripe i've just uploaded an addendum to the trek i did, mainly dealing with what little i know about the plant, check it out, i'd be happy for any comments/interpretations. http://ethnobotany-australia.net/forum/vie...opic.php?t=2703

you're a sly dog Torsten , you kept that secret well, are they produced by that guy Adrien from SEP? it would be nice to see what u got and how much u paid hehe. alright guys, many thanks for the interest, only a couple of trades left now, but as i have been inundated with Mitragyana , b.cappi and p.viridis i'm scrubbing them off the list, i would prefer just about anything else, so make me an offer.

>pituri area??? >'My plants are doing well now that I have evaluated my data....' i didn't know that u already had some plants, did u grow them from seed or transplant them? i have a prisoner also but it is a recent transplant so i've still got my fingers crossed. in any case, no-one knows this yet cause i'm forever trying to get organised and forgetting to write it down but, all completed transactions will also recieve a botanical sample of the cured herb when it becomes available (in about a months time). also, was wondering if these would be ok to send to the states, anyone know?

Hi i_f, i collect orchids, although only the easy to grow ones (no hothouse), i know you posted a question about a type that u are looking for, a picture might have gotten more response. (u still lookin for brug pollen?)

yer? Darklight i'm not exactly sure that it is refractometers that u want to learn about, i have some friends in the wine making industry who use refractometers to determine what the sugar content of their grapes is in order to best determine harvest time. if u want to determine chemical constituents then you might want to think about spectroscopes instead. the images above is of a reasonably cheap/simple 'visible light' type spectroscope that i own, you can get a similar instrument these days for between 6 -> 60 bux, check out -> http://sargentwelch.com/default.asp .this is old technology as there has been much development in this area of science over the last century or so, nowadays it is not unusual to come across nmr (nuclear magnetic resonance) types as well as infra-red and ultra-violet types and many of them dont even use optical prisms any more but mirrors and diffraction gratings instead, also there are many types now that are little more than a p.c. component add-on plus some software, but essentially you can still work with the simple optical devices if u understand how they work and what u can and cant do with them. the link below is more applicable to astronomy and how astronomers determine the composition of distant stars by analysing the light-spectra which they emanate, it shows how these instruments work with light entering through a slit and being separated into a spectrum by a prism, it also shows a banded spectrum representing chemicals and/or chemical bonds which made up the source of the original light. the same thing happens when u burn a botanical sample in front of a visible light type spectroscope, the light which enters the instrument carries with it information of what chemicals and/or chemical bond decompositions generated that original light and this is interpreted as various bands at various positions along that spectrum. -> http://astrofili.org/members/osservareilci...lo/spetring.htm essentially these instruments are little more than comparators, that is, all you do is compare your result to a previously confirmed or known result for a known chemical under a particular format, now if you didnt have access to some government website which gave out such law-enforcement type information online free of charge then you might start by observing the decomposition of a known sample of the pure or refined chemical such as dmt for example in a flame and note the location and distribution of its bands in the spectrum produced, next u would burn your various plant samples that u wanted to investigate and try to identify the same signature bands in them also, thereby comparing to the known spectra. this of course is an over simplification, as, if you were to burn an actual plant sample you would produce so many bands from the hundreds of chemicals in the sample that u may actually make interpretation too difficult to make, so to simpify things a bit you would use various solvents to extract your potential plant substances first thereby seperating the sample into a narrower range of chemicals containing fewer bands. eg. find and use a known solvent for dmt first then burn this solute to generate your 'refined' spectra, fewer bands will make it easier to discern if the solute sample contains recognisable dmt bands. where the actual alkaloid being sought is not known for certain, u might still have clues to help guide u, for example i know from historical readings and experiments that the alkaloid/s that i am interested to explore contained in the duboisia hopwoodii plant are soluble in water and thats a great start, by a process of elimination using other solvents and separations techniques i might be able to seperate the actives out further still, then if i were able to plot out the bands generated from a decomposition of this refined solute and try to isolate and separate out bands present that are attributable to known chemicals then i might be able to refine my data further still, finally, through the study of other similar bands representing various known chemicals and/or chemical bonds to those remaining i might be able to work out a chemical structure to an unknown molecule. much of this is speculation though, so dont take it too seriously. another reasonable link to spectroscopy in general and the history of its developement is -> http://www.gwu.edu/gelman/guides/sciences/...a.html#section1 I dont want to get too involved with this thread as i find it toooo easy to get lost in this speculative sort of shit, engineering chemistry is as far as i got anyway, but yes, i would like to be able to get to a stage where i could use a small prism in a box coupled to a digital camera and hooked up to a laptop, a small self written software program would measure the difference in colour saturation of the spectrum generated when a plant sample solution is decomposed by a laser or flame, then via a few algorythms and correlation coefficients a possible list of chemical components might be generated by the software from a pre-existing database built up largely from data which has been pilthered from existing chemical databases. alternately, there was up till recently a university website which gave free spectral interpretations, who knows there may be one again someday. check out -> http://www.fdmspectra.com/index.html they have a free-bee trial download of about two thousand chemical signatures and a look at the type of software you get to drive on their software based spectroscopes, right now the price of such databases comes in at approx 2000 bux per 10,000 spectra however this does not guarantee that any or all of your 'desired' spectra will be included in that database package. i have seen dbas containing as many as 34000 spectra for sale, again having access to these may still be useless if you only happen to be interested in some small but obscure family of isomers. as for UV?, i dont want to be accused of being arrogant again but... i've never laughed so hard (hehehe) :D . seriously folks, i was almost at the point of shitting myself, i was having nightmares, i kept imagining that i would wake up to some noise during the night only to discover a hoard of gnomes gathered about a uv-lamp in the living-room smashing my collection of uranium glass and trying to smoke it (then they'd all run around in the back yard glowing in the dark), i have been using uv-light to help i.d. fakes and forgeries in the antique trade for several decades and believe that i have some experience with its use. the theory is that everything has a uv signature, but that signature fades with time, some restorers refer to this as 'uv-patina' and use it to spot changes or repairs in objects as well as fakes and reproductions, an area of recent modification to an object or a new object will glow brightly under uv light, an actual old object (made of exactly the same elements) will be very dull by comparison, so if a liquid/chemical is sprayed on to an old object surface, the very fact that it has been subjected to a change or chemical reaction on its surface may make it stand out irrespective of what chemicals it is composed of, and for this reason alone there can be no correlation between the brightness of a substance under uv-light and the possibility that the substance contains psycho-activite constituents which would also glow under uv, alternately, there are MANY substances (like uranium glass) which glow like crazy under uv light and clearly have no relation to psycho-active chemicals whatsoever, so ultimately it serves no purpose to know that dmt might glow under uv light if you can not differentiate the glow of dmt under uv to the glow of EVERY other chemical under uv. (bury uv now as it is useless and dangerous )

the way i remember it, it was our own government of Oz who forced, preasured, blackmailed and otherwise influenced the Indonesian government (and others) to enforce these draconian laws in the first place, our government itself adopted these measures as a response to mounting internal political preasures and a public outcry from those families in Oz who had LOST children to s.e.asia in the 60's and 70's, or to lengthy prison sentences upon their return home, i remember that i lost a number of good friends to cheap drugs in s.e.asia before the deterants were put into place and enforced, it was just too easy back then. as i recall, it was a daily ritual back then to watch the news and see how many young people got busted each day at the airport trying to smuggle drugs in on their way home from the magical land of Bali, exactly the same way that u watch the body count occur in the middle east today, in Bali itself you bought a bag of penang heads and smoked it the first night at the local beach party, next day you bought another bag as well as a boulder of brown sugar for a couple of extra bux, then before u knew it you were writing letters to friends and relatives back home in Oz asking them to send money so that u can buy a plane ticket home because your original ticket had lapsed (cashed-in/sold), only thing is, when the money arrived, it rarely got spent on a plane ticket, and your friends and relatives never heard from you again or if they did then it was only for more money with some new lame-arsed excuse (can't remember how many 'forced repatriations' or kidnappings i was asked to help fund in the name of 'friendship'). as for the girl and her 4.2 keys? i wish her luck as i suspect that weather or not she is guilty, she will never the less serve usefully as the latest in a long series of 'deterents by example'.

quote: Probably just Bias from both angles - i dont know the word? to see your locality as the centre of the world? .....geocentric? the book doesn't even name the other supposed 4 let alone provide images, that image of D. brachypodum certainly doesn't help that much either when you consider just how many mauve coloured pea flower types there are out there, (all those mystery creepers i had been photographing all winter long are all of a sudden turning out pea flowers of various colours too), the showy yellow flowers on the other one should make it a bit easier to spot (in the right season) but i suspect that it will be ages before i get to head up in that direction again anyway. the book is quite general first published in 1977 it give quite broad descriptions of various types and families of climbers with some more detailed stuff like what i already sent you, but you seem to have some good resources already, i will do a text scan of the index and send it off to you, there may be one or two more images that may be usefull to you or that you may have been seeking and at least you will know what the book covers, i apologise for any errors in advance as the text was a small font size and the OCR package is an old one. - check your mail i know for myself that there is no substitute for haveing a decent image library as a resource when mounting a search for a particular plant and i wish we could put various regional/seasonal databases up on the net, might make things a bit easier.

thats interesting rev, my book states that the 5 species occur mainly in the eastern states. you will have noticed by now that Rhyssopterys timorensis is shown to occur in north qld. anyway hairyplant, there is more to this world than just RFs and i'm surprised at myself for never having dropped in, and i'm surprised at you for not even mentioning it, but we do have our own little patch of RF here in victoria, far east gipsland, there's something that needs to be checked out thouroughly. however my big plans for the near future are a soon to be desert trip and i'm still collecting data, so if you have any, please let me know. (stoney desert)

hairyplant - i wasn't displaying praise for them, just trying to keep an open mind, you would have to be silly anyway to try to conceal something like that in a place where you know that hords of people will go and look for it and similar things, but you made it sound like such a pristine place that i had to point out some of the history of the place and i know that facing up to this can sometimes be hard to do but there are several recovery sites out there that are amongst my favorite of all sites. there are many catch 22's for greens today, another impressive chap i met in my travels - ted 'the engineer', was working as ships engineer when i sailed around the solomon islands and PNG in that old clipper ship called 'the eye of the wind', he had only just come up from antarctica where their greenpeace ship had sunk and caused the greens a big embarassment for all the pollution it had caused and all the resources spent (i won't say wasted :D ) in their recovery, (that one got buried didn't it?, we had some interesting debates on that voyage, hehe) i'm not trying to deride the place but you will never understand it if you try to hide its history or if you ignore its displaced balance over time or the fact that it might well be something different today than it was when white man first came there, or that we may never understand what it was really like back then. as for the tourists? well i call them terrorists down here and yes i know what it can be like at first hand too, i had this dickhead trying to impress me one time with stories of how good a shot he was when they were floating glass bottles down the creek and shooting at them, good luck bathing in or even crossing that creek in future, he doesn't know how close he came to having a serious accident that day, hehehe. i am lead to understand that the chinese miners up there had a far superior mininig/dredging technique to the whites which displaced huge amounts of stone and sediment causing great upheaval but you are right, there were many places that i walked into where you would never have guessed that it had happened, i got up above the road too, mostly atop the cliffs away from the big lizards looking for a safe clifftop pool to have my daily wash, on one of our guided walks paul pointed to a group of small pines on a 40 foot long island surrounded by an ankle deep creek and said something like 'you see those pines there', 'well we had a group of botanists come through here some time ago and those pines grow nowhere else in the world except for that little pebbled island' then you wonder how they survived the dredges, another story which followed roundabout then was about a tribe of canabalistic aborigines up there who prefered eating the chinese gold miners because they were mainly vegetarians and tasted better, hehehehe. :D (i am curious to know exactly what vegetables these miners ate, most likely the orchids i would think). rev - yes i have been lead to believe that the Rhyssopterys timorensis vine is an actual relative of b.cappi although i might well be speaking with my foot in my mouth as i am not physically familiar with either of these plants, the other one is also a vine but obviously a different genera. there was a recent trouts note on this genera also however that report included only foreign species, none of the supposed local 5 known Desmodiums and only D. brachypodum is named and pictured in the book. the book also has a number of pictures of native Rubus, sarsaparilla, parsonsias, jasminums and ipomoeas - check your mail

hey guys i didnt mean to hijack the original thread but it appears to have happened. i dont have much time right now to carefully consider and respond (appointment) only logged on as there was another option i remembered for guided forest walks to help out psychoO and that was the old cape trib. youth hostel, if you visit there i'm sure that you will be able to talk to someone with some contacts in the area. for myself, i only did a couple of guided walks, then when they cut the ferry cable leaving me stuck in the jungle for a week, i decided to find my own way about. there is only so much jibberish you can take anyway from a guide who speaks with an american accent and only got the job cause she looked like a good root. rev. - can scan, and the book has other thingies that might interest you too, but do not want to violate copyright, send me a pm with a e-mail address or an alterate suggestion, must go now

Almost shit myself the first time i saw them, there i was stopped by the bloomfield river considering if i should risk fording it in a two wheel drive vehicle being mindfull that the river was running high and fast when i was distracted by movement in a nearby clearing and when my eyes focused i realized that i was looking at a family of 'ferrals', naked mother, naked baby hanging off her breast and naked father quietly walking through the jungle (naked) in the middle of nowhere?, i remember i felt envious, they had to know what they were doing, after all, they were 'naked', whereas i needed a leather jacket to keep the lawyer cane from ripping me to shreds and some friends/aquaintances who had no leather jackets did in fact literally get torn to shreds on some of the walks that we did together, here they were, 'naked'. inconcievable! Hey Hairyplant, I dont think they care if you agree or not, and i dont think you realize how many influxes of gold miners, timber getters, ethnobotanic harvesters etc. have plundered and raped that area over the last few centuries or how many foreign weeds have taken hold and displaced native plants, in some circles it is thought that even the bracken fern is a foreign invader, consider how many understory plants may have been irreversably exterminated and/or displaced if this is actually true. i once read an account of the botanical diverity of the melbourne basin region describing it as originally covered in native orchids, yet everywhere we look today we see nothing but bracken, how come? I look at the 'ascention island' phenomonon and cant help but feel that other, more ethnobotanically suitable plants might actually be useable to 're-enginneer' a more 'desireable' forest, or would you prefer the poisonous weeds that we have already naturalised?, i know i almost died from the stench of the lantana up there, i spent about a week climbing around on the cliff faces below the road and there was no species of plant that could survive beside lantana, its gotten so you dont even have a concept of what might have been there in pre-lantana days. fuck, i've just driven down the street and an amazing brugmansia that i had been admiring has disappeared, its gone, vanished, pooof, it was right there, next to the primary school and some bastard probobly came along and told the owner that it was a poisonous plant so they got rid of it, the pity is that the oleander bushes that were on either side are still there as are the hundred or so others in front gardens of houses all the way down the street, arn't they a very poisonous plant from italy?, of what fucking use are they?, why do they get to live? and has anyone ever even considered the health implications of living amongst so much of that poisonous shit?. (my 2 cents worth) a good book with pics of the ones i suggested is 'Australian Climbing Plants' - D.L.Jones & B.Gray, these are apparently b. caapi type plants

the old bloke who owned the old cape trib. shop (25 years ago, paul mason?) ran some interesting 'old world / new world' forest hikes, check in there next time (if it still exists). the thing that impressed me the most, other than his family's history in that area was the statement he once made as we were walking along, he said 'every tenth plant you walk past in here is still un-catalogued!', this was only a short time after the discovery of living specimens of idiosperm turning up about 50 metres off the old road, everyone had thought these plants had died out with the dinosaurs as well. since then, whenever i go out, i try to remember what he said, and soon realized that even i was able to find new species, the prob. was, did i have the patience to go through the process of claiming them?, or would i leave that to the stamp collectors?. It wouldnt surprise me if you were to find all sorts of strange things growing, the jungle itself was occupied by all manner of strange gnomes and poachers growing all sorts of strange things and you would have to take a very long walk indeed before you got away from human influence. does anyone know? is the 'church of the holy molecule' sign still up?, otherwise, what rev said, plus possibly Desmodium brachypodum Rhyssopterys timorensis