Thinking of giving Antidepressants another go....

[Darklight]

I'm taking Moclobemide ( Aurorix ) 150mg ( yes it's a baseline dose ) after an extremely traumatic event early last year. And the stuff is fucken gold. I'm glad I did it. I tried coming off it too suddenly and without support a couple of months ago and it was scary as shit- very suddenly too, I think the eight days afterwards were geat but the ninth I went spiralling into madness worse than before I was on them. Fortunately they have a fast ramp up and a day later I was fine. I don't seem to be getting much in the way of side effects from the Moclobemide, and what there is is no way as bad as the state I was in when I went on them. They're liveable

Ten years ago I was dead against anni-d's, but in the intervening years I've seen a few people who seriously needed help get real, lifesaving assistance from them and then quit no worries. And I've seen a few people be fucked up by the wrong ones. And I've seen ppl for whom they did nothing, nada, made no difference.

Overall the positives outweigh the negatives, and good treatment hasn't resulted in zombification for any of the people I know

In all successful cases ( including mine ) the only commonality I've found was the level of support from friends, family, and medical staff willing to listen to you and make changes as needed. Am lucky enough to have the best GP on the planet ( thank you socialised medicine! ) who understands and monitors carefully. Unfortunately I haven't found any decent specialists with whom I'm sympatico enough to be of any further use, which worries me a bit for ppl out there worse off than me. Mind you it took me four years to find a decent mechanic, so maybe I'm being too hasty

Eating well and exercise are the cornerstone for successful treatment too IMO. But as one psych said to me not long ago ( and it was the only sensible thing he said ) if you're at the point where you aren't physically capable of eating right and exercising or they aren't any good- then chemical intervention is probably the next step

In addition to the moclobemide, diet and exercise I'm doing serious supplementation, and taking ( pre-scheduling obtained ) low dose water soluble kava extract for the bad days- as a substitute for benzos ( all with GP approval ). I wouldn't remove or change any of these things carelessly, but for me the moclobemide will be the first to go, on the basis of the physiological changes wrought by its sudden stoppage

Yep I'm nervous as hell about coming off pharms- prolly in the next 12 months- but my GP is aware of this and he has a withdrawl plan ready, so Im not planning anything rash this time. I believe this stuff can impact on your body making changes that make sudden cessation extremely dangerous and possibly fatal in some cases, so dropping off your meds isn't something you'd do as lightly as, say, quitting cigs. But if you've tried everything else and the meds get you through the really bad nights and lets you make positive changes in the interim, then they're an option worthy of consideration

I do believe in some instances that anni-d's are given out too lightly, with a lack of due care and sometimes incomplete knowledge. That doesn't make them useless, that makes them dangerous, like cars.

Dreamz mate, good on you for trying for a solution and hunting a worthwhile goal. The fact that you're looking for something means you're more likely to find it than if you sit back and wait for life to hand you an answer. I hope yours comes quick and easy, and in the meantime we're here

[B. Loco]

I went on 'em once. It 'cured' my pressing issue of the blues, after a few months. But it stripped away to feel anything more than indifference to everything. There was no sadness, but also there was no joy. Life as a drone.

So I stopped taking them. The way the SSRI's overtook my 'soul' was not the manner in which I choose to live.

Powdered sceletium up the nose is something worth considering. It's a very good mood equaliser, for some people, when used 'as needed', as opposed to 'daily dose'

Back to pharm SSRI's: Stopping the dose without weaning off program was very fucking scary. I almost beat up a goddamn pizza-hut employee becuase he wanted to charge me a meager 50cents extra. There were other such very bad-form and out of character elements when I threw the antidepressants out the window. What the hell was that shit doing to my brain ?

[Xenodimensional]

Powdered sceletium up the nose is something worth considering. It's a very good mood equaliser, for some people, when used 'as needed', as opposed to 'daily dose'

+1 - Sceletium is well worth exploring for improving and stabilising moods - it is very effective!!!!

[MindExpansion]

Sceletium is a mild maoi am i wrong?

Didnt look it up just think i remember that being the case.

If the scripted maoi's arent working, i doubt the (generally) weaker natural ones are likely to work, extracted harm maybe but otherwise...

Peace

[B. Loco]

+1 - Sceletium is well worth exploring for improving and stabilising moods - it is very effective!!!!

Actually, I will happily offer one gram of powdered sceletium - for snorting -, plus another few grams of dried sceletium - for smoking- material to lsdreamz (for free I mean) if he/she is interested. FYI it has been prepared correctly. PM me if you want to give this a go before traveling down the path of drug-company pills.

'Snorting' seems to be the most effective method for the sceletium buzz. 'Insufflation' sounds far less 'druggy' though, I should have used that word.

[eexpee]

Sceletium is a mild maoi am i wrong?

Didnt look it up just think i remember that being the case.

If the scripted maoi's arent working, i doubt the (generally) weaker natural ones are likely to work, extracted harm maybe but otherwise...

Peace

I want to find this out too. A quick google didn't show anything...

[B. Loco]

Re: The active compound - An SSRI, allegedly. Not to be taken with MAOI's. O other SSRI's. I dunno, I'm not a chemist.

Good to raise questions though. If anyone reading this is presently on antidepressants, the lack of study behind Sceletium implores me to insist you don't try it. Heresay suggests that this might not be a good idea.

Same too with alcohol. Don't take sceletium with alcohol, it can lead to bad headaches. Ok, it leads me to having bad headaches.

Interesting syngergy with pot, though. But if anyone is trying to get out of a bad headspace, they should really be putting the bong / spliffs down to starts with. Those without issues, but with access to sceletium, might want to try it in your next few mixes.

[eexpee]

Yes, MAIO's are not the be taken with SSRI's, but the question was not that, but if kanna is a mild MAIO?

I planted some seeds today

[SunChaser]

But if anyone is trying to get out of a bad headspace, they should really be putting the bong / spliffs down to starts with.

Otherwise it might turn you into a violent rapist or even turn you into a bat!!!

There is not one credible study on the face of the earth that can proove all that crap the government carries on with. Alright do you have any idea how much the pharmacutical companies would be losing out if you could just grow your own medicine for free in the back yard that is just as effective.

Cannabis is the second most popular drug in the world and in recent years it's rate of use has gone though the roof, but yet the rate of pyschosis has either remand the same or declined, so it is impossible (scientifically) for cannabis to have anything to do with causing mental illness in people. It may not help some people and if abused could temparerly make problems worse, but like I've said already, like wise with ALL drugs.

The US are finally catching on so in about 30 years we might start to catch on to. It's the greatest medical herb known to man!

The Evidence

[MindExpansion]

Jabez, its way to early in the morning for me to elaborate, but what you just said i think is a load of crap.

Peace

[SunChaser]

Jabez, its way to early in the morning for me to elaborate, but what you just said i think is a load of crap.

Peace

I gave you a link which scientifically prooves my point, where's your link brother, or do you just know. I might remind you that jan copeland from the NCPIC (it's her job to make cannabis look as bad as possible) has clearly stated that there is no such thing as cannabis induced pyschosis and like I said I gave you the link of a study that went for over 10 years and included 2.6% of the UK population.

Your just going to have to deal with it, unless your like a Christian who ignores reality when you don't agree with it.

Once again cannabis is the most medically valuable plant known to man kind, I mean it has anti-cancer properties, for fuck sake!!!!

BTW, if I'm so full of shit and cannabis is some dangerous drug that gives you psychosis, then why have 13 US states legalized it for medical use and many more states are about to join them?

Edited August 8, 2009 by jabez

[hutch]

I found the one way for me to get of the antidepressant merry go round! I got my wife onto them... I'm not kidding. I got off and she got on and we couldn't be happier. There is a huge change in her for the better but they just seemed to mess me up more.

I'm starting to think that there is something to iodine drops . I will raise this in another thread though.

Good luck with it though, it's rough stuff.....

Hutch

[mutant]

jabez, if you've asperger syndrome, than you are a different case reg: emotions and mood to start with huh??

So, don't make so bold comments, because you only look silly and know-it-all-wannabe-type, which propably isn't the case .

Nice comment Darklight! If you love your therapist, then he must be bood and you must be progressing alright, nice to read some reports about decent doctors inb those forums, even though I know they might be rare in some places...

I do believe in some instances that anni-d's are given out too lightly, with a lack of due care and sometimes incomplete knowledge. That doesn't make them useless, that makes them dangerous, like cars.

right. even if they are sometimes prescribed too easily,some would say...

Edited August 8, 2009 by mutant

[MindExpansion]

Presecribed too easily and with no consideration for the individual dose wise and stuff.

[SunChaser]

What untrue bold comment have I made?

[gerbil]

I personally think it's a bit too easy to blame cannabis for a bad headspace. For starters it is a hugely variable plant and one type can do one thing and another..well another. But if it does put you in a bad headspace whether it be pharmacologically direct or from the lifestyle some types can bring about i.e. being unproductive etc. then of course it's intelligent to cease use or severely moderate it. Productivity or lack thereof i think can be a huge influence on the happiness of a person and their mental stability. At times i think for me, hypothetically cannabis has created issues, but on a whole it has been one of the best medicines I have ever come into contact with, the user needs to take responsibility and apply it thoughtfully to bring about a positive outcome; to be honest hypothetically i am far more depressed without it than with it, that's not to say it needs to be used all the time though.

Moderation is definitely a good point, and if it doesn't work for some people that's cool, but it does work for some people aswell, I do believe it is all about finding the right type for oneself and specifically for the specific application it is put forth for, and then using it responsibly.

Speaking from a sober perspective, there are ridiculously bad headspaces to be in and for me personally it is the state of the world and society that does it to me, I can't attribute that to cannabis or any other substance specifically because of the sober state. I also can't attribute it to a substance use because I have felt that way long before I came into contact with substance use, i.e. childhood situations.

Granted things work pharmacologically different from each other, but I find it a bit weird to put one substance aside that can produce a positive outcome for another that can produce a positive outcome; I suppose we are all not the same and potentially that's were difficulties lie.

I personally would choose not go on pharmaceutical antidepressants, have tried them briefly before and decided to take myself off them in the very early days of use, not because of bad side effects (granted i probably didn't take them long enough for them to kick in) but because I accepted within myself that I could sort the issues out in other ways. Yes depression is still present in my life and I think probably always will be to varying extents, to me it's about finding out what is wrong and addressing those issues, which can be done on either side of the fence, a lot of the time the issues will never go away, i.e. if the structure of society gets you down etc, but it's about finding a middle ground. If people can use them as a tool to sort themselves out that's cool and it seems lot of people find them beneficial, but I also think it can be done other ways. If a herbal antidepressant / working out tool, works for people cool, if the pharmaceutical antidepressant / working out tool works for others cool, if nothing but a sober state works then cool.

As much as it's hard to admit, I think i do see value in pharmaceutical applications, but i prefer not to support them when i can, as I think they are responsible for a lot of the worlds troubles and find them a lot of the time hypocritical, greedy and supporting suppression of information. I think single molecules can be very useful but as well i think a herbal complex can be just as much too.

It's been said, but some of the key bits to work through depression issues can be, diet, exercise both physical and mental, finding something you enjoy doing / living for, having long term goals based on what you like doing / living for and appropriate application of whatever medicine you find is right for you.

and my response didn't really respond to the original question,

Aropax, about a few weeks to a month, can't remember much of a change, but was told similarly to what you stated, takes about a month to start working.

Whatever you choose after being being well informed on all sides, i'm sure you will be supported by many around you. All the best.

Edited August 9, 2009 by gerbil

[mutant]

Re: jabez

What untrue bold comment have I made?

that antidepressants are shit and no good. it's the use that renders the any substance into 'shit'.

some people are markedly helped through their hard times and/or are almost healed off their obsessions and negative thought loops which is the base of their depression , in combo with true psychotherapy , a method - I am only talking for some cases here, not all, of course...

[Alchemica]

I'll just add my experience: they are by no means benign drugs, especially if they are deliberately pushed over the maximum prescribing dose by a shrink. You can end up a new "you"... a "you" that you never thought could ever exist. Just as is the case with any mind altering substance.

Still, back at the time I was desperately wanting out of the world... now I want to stay (strange feeling in retrospect). Besides some lingering neurological defects and delusional ideologies from past accidents and mischief that occured on SSRIs, things are sort of OK... and that's without the meds. Just be careful, that is all.

"Whatever you choose after being well informed on all sides, i'm sure you will be supported by many around you. All the best."

Likewise!

I like this picture, anyway. Always good to use your own judgement about the meds and systems in place to check for "quack-ness" IMO and watch out, if you ever feel even a little bit different than you should, get someone to keep a close eye on you.

Re sceletium: Mesembrine: very potent serotonin-uptake inhibitor, inhibitor of PDE4 (Several PDE inhibitors have been examined for memory improvement, neuroprotection, depression and schizophrenia using preclinical animal models ) and some receptor activities found on nicotinic, dopamine and nor-adrenaline sites. Not sure about the mesembrinone/mesembrinol. So it's a bit of a mixed action drug.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Alchemica

[MindExpansion]

Re sceletium: Mesembrine: very potent serotonin-uptake inhibitor, inhibitor of PDE4 (Several PDE inhibitors have been examined for memory improvement, neuroprotection, depression and schizophrenia using preclinical animal models ) and some receptor activities found on nicotinic, dopamine and nor-adrenaline sites. Not sure about the mesembrinone/mesembrinol. So it's a bit of a mixed action drug.

Thanks for clearing that up for me alchemia.

I have just decided to start halving my citalopram dose and see how that works out.

The side effects are starting back in full swing now.

Peace

[t st tantra]

something i find interesting about sceletium is that the consumer often feels no effects but the increase in sociability and talkativeness is obvious to the observer.

is this a characteristic of an ideal drug or is it better to feel something?

delosperma bosseranum seems preferred by some people to sceletium.

t s t .

[eexpee]

something i find interesting about sceletium is that the consumer often feels no effects but the increase in sociability and talkativeness is obvious to the observer.

is this a characteristic of an ideal drug or is it better to feel something?

delosperma bosseranum seems preferred by some people to sceletium.

t s t .

It is an ideal drug to those wishing not to feel anything, but receive results. A lot of people taking drugs are in it for what they feel from it. So, it's all relative.

[mutant]

something i find interesting about sceletium is that the consumer often feels no effects but the increase in sociability and talkativeness is obvious to the observer. is this a characteristic of an ideal drug or is it better to feel something?

This is very true on low, even quite low doses of psychoactive amanitas , when the taker often 'doesn't feel anything' . An observer can easily see the difference, as you said.

delosperma bosseranum seems preferred by some people to sceletium.

Have heard of this difference . in what way?? in that delo is more sedative?

Edited August 10, 2009 by mutant

[SunChaser]

Re: jabez

that antidepressants are shit and no good. it's the use that renders the any substance into 'shit'.

some people are markedly helped through their hard times and/or are almost healed off their obsessions and negative thought loops which is the base of their depression , in combo with true psychotherapy , a method - I am only talking for some cases here, not all, of course...

Yeah I get your point and of course there's heaps of people these drugs do and can help, but I just question the term "antidepressant". To me just like any drug some help you sleep, others help with anxiety and others will just keep you sedated, which might put you in a better place, but does that give them the right to sell them as "antidepressants"?

[mutant]

To me just like any drug some help you sleep, others help with anxiety and others will just keep you sedated, which might put you in a better place, but does that give them the right to sell them as "antidepressants"?

well these ones might help with depression as well as a variety of other stuff! You don't accept depression exists? Antidepressants, when they work they induce a long term chemical sense of well being and euphoria. They work for some, it's not a myth, and it's rather a question of if and how they should be used rather that if they are good or bad.

[Thelema]

Euphoric, no. SSRI's are not euphoric. The best ssri antidepressants in my view are either zoloft or paroxetine. Although reboxetine [snri] gives a run for the money- it's definitely a substance that's handy to have recourse to, probably more handy and recreational than any of the SSRI's. Paroxetine increases my thoughts of paedophilia, greater than 0 anyhow, which is a confusing and troubling side effect for me.

If I were you I'd try to get a doctor who would prescribe selegiline: it's going to be approved here within the next couple of years as an AD transdermal patch, already approved in the US as "emsam".

It's metabolic byproducts are meth-amphetamine and amphetamine! Need I say more? - it's particularly good for smokers, too.