Hedonism or Spiritualism

[mutant]

I also think she might be a female, but definately not a troll

Mooksha, what about a constructive trichotomy, like:

I tend to analyse the main things that form an ideal relationship with the other sex are actually three, reduced to three phrases:

*sexual compatiblity

*communication

*affection, endearment

in this way you can easier further analyze f.e. an individuals approach to a relationship

well, maybe this is one man's viewpoint, as for some ladies the ideal sex is of a brain type, not some separate element, same for some guys I am sure

Edited August 1, 2009 by mutant

[drugo]

methinks you are a troll. it is easy to quote great thinkers, but can you take ownership of an idea?

*edit* I also think you might be female, and that you could be a great assett to this sausage fest!

It may be easy to quote great thinkers however it is not easy to appreciate, embody, or feel, complex concepts and perspectives - especially ideas which the giants of philosophy spent their lives constructing. I'm thinking that's what you mean by ownership no? Or are you pretending that somehow you produce ideas which are only yours, independent from any social or intellectual influence? If so, you sound like an confused and arrogant ego head juggling shallow concepts as tools for various egoistic manifestations, such as "I'm right your wrong, I'm smart your dumb, I'm original your a troll". We are social animals, dependent on each other for a variety of things in life, including, identity, material survival, inspiration, intersubjective love, and so on. We are a single organism, split up into a multitude of self-conscious perspectives. Can't you appreciate the value of exploring other peoples perspectives, ie. the worlds published philosophical perspectives? For that matter, why are you on this 'Spirituality and Philosophy' forum? If not to absorb other peoples ideas?

I quoted Derrida, giving reference to a major concept which i thought was relevant for this discussion, so if people are interested they can continue their inquiry with him. Derrida's ideas are far far from simple. I do not have the time, nor the talent, to give complete justice to his ideas concerning deconstructionism. Therefore, I choose to send those interested in what I've got (or own) from reading his books, towards his philosophies, which I do by 'quoting' Derrida.

I think, or 'I temporarily own the idea', that by cutting out the plethora of knowledge produced by other people, those who spent their whole life studying, teaching and conceptually inquiring into the world (example, philosophers such as Derrida) - that this type of ignorant arrogance dissolves, or overlooks, an important part of being human.

Tell me rogdog, what does it mean to take ownership of an idea? Also, what does it mean to listen to another person speak? Or read what another person wrote?

[drugo]

I also think she might be a female, but definately not a troll

Mooksha, what about a constructive trichotomy, like:

I tend to analyse the main things that form an ideal relationship with the other sex are actually three, reduced to three phrases:

*sexual compatiblity

*communication

*affection, endearment

in this way you can easier further analyze f.e. an individuals approach to a relationship

well, maybe this is one man's viewpoint, as for some ladies the ideal sex is of a brain type, not some separate element, same for some guys I am sure

Yeah that''s awesome Mutant. I guess I see the world, ultimately, as a unichotomy. Then from this monism, or interrelated nature of everything, we tend to divide parts up into smaller, or particular, connections, meanings, and so forth. The latter seems to be a powerful tool for understanding specific elements of a whole system, ie. the universe. Just like a song is made up of various verses, the universe is made up of various particularities. But, It's all the same song. This is where entheogens have snatched my attention as i feel that, used with a bit of education and respect, they elude to a deeper resonance of the universal song.

Edited August 4, 2009 by mooksha

[mutant]

Hey, that's interesting! I guess I am doing the opposite, temporarily but resolutely dividing some concepts , needs etc according to places of origin, groups of similar linkings, and various other creterions, and also often link concepts I feel are useful into groups of particular common elements. The proceedure is a transitional one and as I said, temporary, not one meant to provide the conclusions. Besides, labeling , grouping & dividing are pointless outside a more general unifying macroscopic lense, a point of view that includes almost 'everything'.

You tend to be more universal, I tend to be more indivualistic. Nice opposites

[rogdog]

It may be easy to quote great thinkers however it is not easy to appreciate, embody, or feel, complex concepts and perspectives - especially ideas which the giants of philosophy spent their lives constructing. I'm thinking that's what you mean by ownership no? Or are you pretending that somehow you produce ideas which are only yours, independent from any social or intellectual influence? If so, you sound like an confused and arrogant ego head juggling shallow concepts as tools for various egoistic manifestations, such as "I'm right your wrong, I'm smart your dumb, I'm original your a troll". We are social animals, dependent on each other for a variety of things in life, including, identity, material survival, inspiration, intersubjective love, and so on. We are a single organism, split up into a multitude of self-conscious perspectives. Can't you appreciate the value of exploring other peoples perspectives, ie. the worlds published philosophical perspectives? For that matter, why are you on this 'Spirituality and Philosophy' forum? If not to absorb other peoples ideas?

I quoted Derrida, giving reference to a major concept which i thought was relevant for this discussion, so if people are interested they can continue their inquiry with him. Derrida's ideas are far far from simple. I do not have the time, nor the talent, to give complete justice to his ideas concerning deconstructionism. Therefore, I choose to send those interested in what I've got (or own) from reading his books, towards his philosophies, which I do by 'quoting' Derrida.

I think, or 'I temporarily own the idea', that by cutting out the plethora of knowledge produced by other people, those who spent their whole life studying, teaching and conceptually inquiring into the world (example, philosophers such as Derrida) - that this type of ignorant arrogance dissolves, or overlooks, an important part of being human.

Tell me rogdog, what does it mean to take ownership of an idea? Also, what does it mean to listen to another person speak? Or read what another person wrote?

What I am saying is, that you bring up an interesting discussion, but you wear the Ray Martin wig, and just moderate, without adding any personal insight. I was happy to sit in the sidelines and watch the discussion, but you brought up a quote of mine, relating to the hedonistic side. That seemed like an uncalled for passive/aggressive stance, which is why I asked for what you really beleive.

The path of the psychonaut is much more varied than just God or Fun. There are infinite options. I was probably a bit harsh to call you a troll, but the concept of just two options seemed divisive to me, like forcing people into pidgeon holes.

What you have done for me, mooksha, is encourage me to spend more time thinking about the spiritual aspect of tryptamineland, and that surely will be to my benefit. In turn, I hope to pass on some insight to the community.

[Gunter]

Hedonists tend to be so short sighted, since they pursue pleasure as their primary motivation then they care little for things like sustainability.

America is the quintessential hedonistic nation, raping the resources of the earth and various nations as a means to support it's lavish and abusive pleasure oriented lifestyle.

[coin]

Hedonists tend to be so short sighted, since they pursue pleasure as their primary motivation then they care little for things like sustainability.

it never really pans out though...a much as a hedonist chases pleasure is as much as s/he despises & tries to circumvent pain..it's the chase itself that sets this up. the spiritual path embodies accepting whatever comes but it doesn't mean you enjoy the ecstasy any less..there's just not so much wasting of time seeking it and fretting when it's gone

?

[drugo]

the spiritual path embodies accepting whatever comes but it doesn't mean you enjoy the ecstasy any less

For sure. I guess I see hedonism as the pursuit of pleasure not essentially oriented towards the spiritual. Whereas, spiritualism is the overarching essence which is the foundation for our complete being in the world, including the experience of any sort of pleasure.

Rather than seeing hedonism and spiritualism as dualistic opposites maybe a different approach could work. What do you all think of 'seeing' hedonism as one part of spirituality rather than its opposite.

Every human has a spirit / psyche / soul.. and from this 'centre' life is appreciated. One part of life which is appreciated is the experience of bodily and egoistic pleasures. Maybe, when we spend a large portion of time, energy, life.. in a more bodily, egoistic pleasure realm it can be labeled as 'hedonism'. However, as I suggested, hedonism as a label for one aspect of our spirituality rather than spiritualism's opposite.

This would be an approach which 'sees' the universe as monistic rather than dualistic.

What do y'all think?

[ThunderIdeal]

i dunno. if i was 100% serious about spirituality i'm sure i'd be completely ascetic. it's because i'm not completely devoted that i allow myself a hedonistic side. it really depends on how you look at it all though, i tend to think that in a basic sense entanglement with material is non spiritual.

[t st tantra]

recreation=re-creation......idealy?

t s t .

[drugo]

recreation=re-creation......idealy?

t s t .

But what is being re-created when we get wasted and roll around in our own vomitis egos?

[FancyPants]

^^^ Sex on acid? Seems both incredibly spiritual AND hedonistic IMO.

Better watch out for the re-creation occuring from split condom.

[t st tantra]

But what is being re-created when we get wasted and roll around in our own vomitis egos?

that is obviously not ideal! but i would hope the re-creation comes afterwards!

some of us dont recreate like you.......

t s t .

[rogdog]

that is obviously not ideal! but i would hope the re-creation comes afterwards!

some of us dont recreate like you.......

t s t .

Now look what you've done......TST is about to drop a knowledge bomb...watch out mofo's

Edited August 5, 2009 by rogdog

[rogdog]

the terms hedonism and spiritualism carry so much cultural baggage that its difficult to work with the terms without specifying for the argument. I understand that spiritual experiences can be, and are more than likely, pleasurable in one form or another. However, what i mean by hedonism, for the sake of this thread, is taking entheogens in social, highly unpredicable places and circumstances, such as parties, doofs, cities, museums etc. Spiritual on the other hand would be alone, or with a couple of people with the ultimate intent or direction of the experience pointing inwards or into another individual for healing, divination, direct learning etc.

The two terms definitely overlap, however with the explanations i've offered which define the terms there seems to be at least two very different approaches to popular entheogen use in the contemporary West. Using laymens terms we might say a hedonist uses drugs and a spiritualist uses entheogens.

I was a young hedonist drunk when psychedelics came into my life, however i think it was the spiritual or educational aspect of these incredible substances that appealed to me from the very beginning and have maintained my interest in them thereafter. Alcohol use is practically non existent now compared to my youth

Holy Shit & WOW....WTF . Welcome to the corroboree narc.

I tend to skim your posts mooksha, because to sound like an academic wannabe, but this is outragious..wtf...you think going to the museum a lil high is out of the ordinary?

The Corroboree could benefit from more female imput, but slow your roll sister, you are acting like ........doesn't matter, i'll leave it for the mods

[FancyPants]

^^^ Trying to bring someone down for saying something intelligent and eloquent says more about you than them. I found absolutely no arrogant or condescending tone whatsoever in Mooksha's posts, and I'll certainly admit there's been a few words in this thread that I have no idea wtf they mean. Sometimes big words are the only ones that suffice; especially when discussing BIG ideas.

[mutant]

I dig the conversation, screw rog.

I think I could skip the term hedonism [a fucking greek word] completely as it's completely hypocritical [another fucking greek word] to refuse that almost everything we do is because we constantly seek some kind of pleasure in any form, really. Because that's the sheer truth: whatever we choose to do, whatever we choose to see it as, whatever approach etc, the deep down goal is to please ourselves, our egos, our bodies, in some way ....

So we can say everyone is a hedonist, even those who deny it, but some are more successful at it, while others might have weird and maybe fucked up ways to take pleasure on life, like abstaining from pleasure _{. But it always has to do with satifying or trying to satisfy the ego or some ego manifestation in some way.}

_{And we all seem to have some spiritual side, but the range and quality immensly varies. And clearly, as rogdogs 'objections' here reveal, spiritual side comes in many flavours}

_{But what is being re-created when we get wasted and roll around in our own vomitis egos?}

_{This is on alchohol right? Well, next day when you are cursing about the negative side-effects of a night full of alcohol on an relatively empty stomach, there is certainly some re-creation taking place.}

Edited August 5, 2009 by mutant

[rogdog]

^^^ Trying to bring someone down for saying something intelligent and eloquent says more about you than them. I found absolutely no arrogant or condescending tone whatsoever in Mooksha's posts, and I'll certainly admit there's been a few words in this thread that I have no idea wtf they mean. Sometimes big words are the only ones that suffice; especially when discussing BIG ideas.

I hear you, but I was brought into the discussion by mooksha, as an example of what not to do, or at least as someone travelling the low path. Mooksha's tactic has come to bite her on the ass, and this trainwreck is a monument to asswipes comeing here thinking they are smart.

Happy travelling mooksha, I hope the plant gods are impressed with your psuedo-academic waffle talk, coz it didn't hold much weight around here!

[drugo]

I hear you, but I was brought into the discussion by mooksha, as an example of what not to do, or at least as someone travelling the low path. Mooksha's tactic has come to bite her on the ass, and this trainwreck is a monument to asswipes comeing here thinking they are smart.

Happy travelling mooksha, I hope the plant gods are impressed with your psuedo-academic waffle talk, coz it didn't hold much weight around here!

Rogdog. I'm not goina' enter into your childish arrogant games. My intention wasn't to offend you when quoting your post about a DMT journey. Re-reading it, I'm thinking what 'rocked your boat' was then I used the term "getting off", which obviously expressive some of me feelings towards the 'hedonistic' indulgence of entheogens. But, this wasn't the only feelings I gave on the issue of hedonism. I feel that my overall message speaking through the thread isn't one which arrogantly criticises the more exclusively pleasurable approach to these things. The world is made up of different beliefs and values, these fundamentals are the currents for all the ideas swimming through this forum. It is only natural for people to, at some point, have different beliefs and values to you. I think the benefit from this forum is sharing each others perspectives which I think is done better when you drop the arrogant tone and simply offer your views. For example, why do you see yourself as leaning more towards the fulfillment of pleasure via DMT, rather then exploring it in a more spiritual way, the way which has dominated indigenous use? I'm genuinely interested in your feelings man, no ego games I'm sorry I didn't pose this question earlier, I'm busy at the moment and have been a bit selective with responses.

I'm just trying to discuss and bring some ideas together for why this community uses entheogens. Your description exemplified the idea of hedonism I originally described, ie. "Think of a hedonist as someones who's main desire is to pursue pleasures, or more specific, bodily pleasures such as food and sex. Dionysus is a popular Greek archetype of this, and some modern archetypes are rockstars such as Jim Morrison, John Bonham, Janis Joplin, and pretty much all the wonderful ego heads who love partying socially with drugs and having a good time in this way. Hedonism is much more complicated than this but this is the idea i want to use for the discussion."

Your post: "jeez reptyle, sounds like youve been drinking the stuff! I was looking for a hyperspace experience, and I got it in spades. I know some people try to bring back a spiritual meaning, but I am a bit more shallow than that, just looking for a buzz, and I like it".

If you look at my description of hedonism I used words like 'wonderful ego heads who like having a good time in this way'. This is not sarcasm, sorry if it came across that way, I have many a wonderful ego head friends and have been inspired by many a wonderful ego heads throughout my life.

My comment didn't seem to annoy you so much at first. But, it seems like it laid brewing in your guts to point of purging through a shallow attack on me.

"I hear you, but I was brought into the discussion by mooksha, as an example of what not to do, or at least as someone travelling the low path. Mooksha's tactic has come to bite her on the ass, and this trainwreck is a monument to asswipes comeing here thinking they are smart.

Happy travelling mooksha, I hope the plant gods are impressed with your psuedo-academic waffle talk, coz it didn't hold much weight around here!"

I'm not after your merit rogdog. I'm hear to listen to peoples ideas and share my own.

[drugo]

that is obviously not ideal! but i would hope the re-creation comes afterwards!

some of us dont recreate like you.......

t s t .

I was just kidding man. I like how William James discusses alcohol as providing the 'yes' funtion, it expands and unites. Getting drunk has played all sorts of positive roles throughout the course of my life, inc. getting close to friends and family. On another thought, I think the first probably 10+ times I had sex with a different person it was drunk post-party late night messiness Alcohol undoubtedly offered a helpful state of mind for two hormone overdosing teenagers.

Towards a more spiritual note, I like how James states 'drunken consciousness is one bit of the mystic consciousness' (1902:388). I've heard of various indigenous shamans including alcohol in different rituals.

[ThunderIdeal]

I think I could skip the term hedonism [a fucking greek word] completely as it's completely hypocritical [another fucking greek word] to refuse that almost everything we do is because we constantly seek some kind of pleasure in any form, really. Because that's the sheer truth: whatever we choose to do, whatever we choose to see it as, whatever approach etc, the deep down goal is to please ourselves, our egos, our bodies, in some way ....

So we can say everyone is a hedonist, even those who deny it, but some are more successful at it, while others might have weird and maybe fucked up ways to take pleasure on life, like abstaining from pleasure _{. But it always has to do with satifying or trying to satisfy the ego or some ego manifestation in some way.}

_{i'm familiar with this idea and it's a good one but i refuse it. there is a higher order of desire than that which ego begs; the ego self does not represent the highest order of self. i am no authority on these things, or any thing, so it's hard to know or state when one ends and the other begins.. but if you look at the extremes mooksha described, it at least seems obvious which is which. base hedonism might manifest in quite a grandiose way, spiritual growth doesn't only occur to the ascetic.}

_{the drama is extremely complex.}

_{what i'm trying to say is i think we are subjected to a proscenium of sorts, and it's quite reasonable to have the opinion that this veil doesn't exist, but in my experience it does. i seek what is hidden and so the spectrum of ego turns out to be only a fraction of the spectrum of reality.}

[botanika]

As long as you are happy. Spiritualism and hedonism - cripes I've got both in abundance. It's a bit like having hair. We all have it, just gets cut and coloured differently.

[rogdog]

Mooksha, I am sure your question was based on curiosty and geniune interest, but a brief ammount of lurking around here would show you that most if not all beleive in plants as teachers. Because of the 'don't imcrimiate yourself' philosophy, lot's of knowledge is between the lines.

What I wrote in the thread you quoted, is a part of my philosophy, but the post belonged in that thread, where I could add corrections as necessary. I am quite upset that you used it in your thread without giving me a heads up, that you were using my post in a different context.

I appologise for getting super aggressive about my position in this matter, and I hope we come have peace some day, but I feel that bringing my post from another thread into this one, is uncalled for. If you took the time to PM me, and ask/say this is what you planned, I am sure this arguemant would not have occured.

I think everybody wants to have a taste of nirvana, but to most people, it is out of our reach. Some people can reach that state by meditation, and the rest of us need help from the plants, or some other chemical means.

Because I find learning fun, when I go on these journeys, I say it's fun, but the trip always has a spiritual aspect to the journey as well. That is mainly when the dose feels too strong, and i say 'oh god make it stop!'. I have come to realise, that I am God, as we all are. We all have control over our destiny, and what could be more godlike than that?

Once again, peace mooksha, and best wishes for your journey

[drugo]

I hope we come have peace some day

Ok, ok, settle down rogdog, I'm just a curious goose.

So is it peace that you want? Well...

I'm sorry too.

Please bring the peace back

[drugo]

What I wrote in the thread you quoted, is a part of my philosophy, but the post belonged in that thread, where I could add corrections as necessary. I am quite upset that you used it in your thread without giving me a heads up, that you were using my post in a different context.

I appologise for getting super aggressive about my position in this matter, and I hope we come have peace some day, but I feel that bringing my post from another thread into this one, is uncalled for. If you took the time to PM me, and ask/say this is what you planned, I am sure this arguemant would not have occured.

...

Once again, peace mooksha, and best wishes for your journey

Hey rog. I'm deeply sorry for cherry picking one of your ideas and trying to glue it to another tree, so to speak. I defiantly should have PM'd you first. I did make broad assumptions about why you use entheogens, assumptions based on one post you wrote from a different thread.

Online forums are really new, and kinda' impersonal, for me at the moment. I honestly find it a bit weird but I'm trying to get use to it. Given the illicit nature of certain plants in our country, the entheogenic community is not easy to get to know with the more common forms of socialising that I'm familiar with, that's why I've been hanging here so much.

I hope you take my apology seriously. I thought you would laugh and appreciate the sequence of photos above. But you didn't. I'm coming to learn that it is hard to judge peoples sentiments online when all I have are occasional words on a screen. And I'm coming to realise that I should be more sensitive whilst discussing things here.

My deepest apologies.

Alex.

Edited August 15, 2009 by mooksha