Hedonism or Spiritualism

[drugo]

The title is loaded, i understand that it is not a case of either or, or in other words, it's not black and white, there seems to be a massive intertwining scale of grey between these two extremes. However, what i'm interested in discussing is where you prefer to sit on a scale of absolute hedonism to absolute spirituality in relation to entheogens, inc. Aya, LSD, alcohol, Nitros oxide etc..

I understand that these categories may never be experienced in their absoluteness, but that's not the point.

Below is a general understanding of the two categories, for argument sake.

Hedonism:

Think of a hedonist as someones who's main desire is to pursue pleasures, or more specific, bodily pleasures such as food and sex. Dionysus is a popular Greek archetype of this, and some modern archetypes are all the rockstars such as Jim Morrison, John Bonham, Janis Joplin, and pretty much all the wonderful ego heads who love partying socially with drugs and having a good time in this way. Hedonism is much more complicated than this but this is the idea i want to use for the discussion.

Spiritualism:

It's pretty straight forward, think of the majority of indigenous practices surrounding the globe which entheogens, hallucinogens, or psycho-tropic sacraments have been used ritualistically for healing and divination. In the contemporary West, examples of the spiritual use of entheogens can be recognised as Leary's LSD meditations, new forms of Aya cirlces, and of course individual rituals for self exploration, healing, divination, etc.

I hope the two categories are distinct, and as stated earlier, i understand that its not either or, i personally swim in both oceans, but for this thread I'm interested in whether you lean towards hedonism or spiritualism, and why?

Edited July 15, 2009 by mooksha

[Chiral]

I hate to complicate things but I'd have to say I sit right in the middle, I can't ever expect to take a psychedelic and not feel good. I think they are both intertwined quite heavily, the user may start off on a spiritual vibe and then be faced with a great feeling during the experience, possibly some deep intimate sex and a total diagnostic workshop may follow, thus returning to the spiritual side of things at the end and the next few days there after. I will admit to being obsessed by these substances since I was a child and have pursued them aggressively all my life, but not always for the spiritual vibe that's for sure. I think there maybe some migration for most people from being hedonistic when younger to developing a more spiritual side as they come to learn, grow, appreciate and respect the plants and their powers. I think anyone in a modern western society who says they are on a fully spiritual kick is not being one hundred percent honest, I'd go even further and say that traditional natives and the men who use things such as Aya or Virola and other tryptamine containing snuffs etc are definitely on a full time spiritual trip. We how ever here in the cities like the feeling first and then talk the talk later. I'm way old compared to most here but I still admit to liking the feeling of acid but now have a much different feeling towards mushrooms, I have now only the most utmost respect for the fungus and will not be using it in future to feel good but for serious spiritual quests only.

H.

[gromit]

You don't think sex is spiritual? You're not doing it right.

I started out as 100% hedonistic, but that first tab of cid smashed me over the head with spirituality.

I guess now I lean on the spiritual side...I have put my body through some excruciating things, that can hardly be called hedonistic, in the name of spiritual growth.

But my moments of pure hedonism are some of my favourites.

[Chiral]

You don't think sex is spiritual? You're not doing it right.

Oooohhhh gromit baby...perhaps we can meet up and you can show me a few pointers...break out the datura tea and raw opium and lets get down with it..

[gromit]

Oooohhhh gromit baby...perhaps we can meet up and you can show me a few pointers...break out the datura tea and raw opium and lets get down with it..

lets do it telepathically! :D

[Yawning Man]

You can't have one without the other. I WANT my experiences with entheogens to be mainly spiritual but that's not always the way it goes. You can't expect to start tripping and all of a sudden be like "Yeah i can feel god amoungst us". I think sprituality is also a headspace. You need to be in the right frame of mind to start thinking about such things.

So for me, this means chilling back and listening to some good tunes or whatever, which would be hedonism. And it's when i'm relaxed and don't have any immediate pressures that may prove a problem during, that i can relax and concentrate on my spirituality. But you know, i've had trips where i've been all hypo and been like "Woo this is radical woo". It's just the way the trip goes, set and setting sometimes determine that its going to be a fully hedonistic experience. Anyway, why do i prefer sprituality over hedonism. Sprituality lasts longer

I'd go even further and say that traditional natives and the men who use things such as Aya or Virola and other tryptamine containing snuffs etc are definitely on a full time spiritual trip.

I'm sure they still enjoy a nice cup of aya even when it's not aya drinking time lol

cheers

[drugo]

I'd go even further and say that traditional natives and the men who use things such as Aya or Virola and other tryptamine containing snuffs etc are definitely on a full time spiritual trip.

I'm sure they still enjoy a nice cup of aya even when it's not aya drinking time lol

cheers

I agree,

Hunab your views of indigenous culture are very romantic a lot of the time, a perspective which often separates fundamental similarities. There is no way that Amazonian locals working with aya don't at times sway towards the pleasurable side rather than the spiritual.

[drugo]

the terms hedonism and spiritualism carry so much cultural baggage that its difficult to work with the terms without specifying for the argument. I understand that spiritual experiences can be, and are more than likely, pleasurable in one form or another. However, what i mean by hedonism, for the sake of this thread, is taking entheogens in social, highly unpredicable places and circumstances, such as parties, doofs, cities, museums etc. Spiritual on the other hand would be alone, or with a couple of people with the ultimate intent or direction of the experience pointing inwards or into another individual for healing, divination, direct learning etc.

The two terms definitely overlap, however with the explanations i've offered which define the terms there seems to be at least two very different approaches to popular entheogen use in the contemporary West. Using laymens terms we might say a hedonist uses drugs and a spiritualist uses entheogens.

I was a young hedonist drunk when psychedelics came into my life, however i think it was the spiritual or educational aspect of these incredible substances that appealed to me from the very beginning and have maintained my interest in them thereafter. Alcohol use is practically non existent now compared to my youth

Edited July 16, 2009 by mooksha

[ThunderIdeal]

potentially a good scale to measure this on would be the (hopefully i get this right) kafa, pita and vata of ayurveda. there are like the three modes of being: ignorant, passionate and virtuous, but in fact liberation requires that one outrgrows all three modes.

aaaaaaanyways... i am a mix, but with a definite inclination towards using psychadelics for spiritual growth and minimising the use of drugs socially or for sheer kicks. stimulants can even be directed towards spiritual endeavours, but this seems to require more care and holding back.

[woof woof woof]

all roads lead to the same destination.

spritualism and hedonism are just phases in each individuals development.

Edited July 16, 2009 by woof woof woof

[reptyle]

Spiritualism appears as the knowledge that is useful as a tool for defining reality...if it IS your world there is nothing you do that is not spiritual...whether its sitting in a cirlce or on top of a mountain or drinking a glass of water.

If you use hedonism as a tool for aligning experiences and memories with joy, pleasure and surrender to "the force"...then future experiences will begin to resemble in sensation, whether they be in a formal situation or a totally loose atmosphere.

Draw a line between point A and point B and play it like a guitar string.

Entertainment and education are most effective when used in conjunction. Similar to the increasing quality of a party or ceremony when its "undercontrol".

After the foundations have been layed with "spiritualism" and the Spirit is integrated, the levels of hedonism increase to the point where you are dancing in heaven with the devas fanning you with peacock feathers... and its still there when you wake up!

Rolling in oceans of the purest pleasure,

freedom from discgrace and the memory of a divine history,

alighting from the world on a journey to the pleroma,

Insight of the holy watchers the gift of a devoted being,

a display unmatched in the triple world,

the formless becomes a joy without limit.

Bless.

[drugo]

Spiritualism appears as the knowledge that is useful as a tool for defining reality...if it IS your world there is nothing you do that is not spiritual...whether its sitting in a cirlce or on top of a mountain or drinking a glass of water.

After the foundations have been layed with "spiritualism" and the Spirit is integrated, the levels of hedonism increase to the point where you are dancing in heaven with the devas fanning you with peacock feathers... and its still there when you wake up!

Individuals have a spirit, soul, ego, whatever you want to call it, therefore everything is ultimately spiritual. I fully agree with you and appreciate the way you've expressed it. My question for this thread is trying to determine why the people on this forum use entheogens. There are quite a few people out there who smoke DMT, consume mushrooms and acid basically for the perceptual pleasures, or 'getting off', i remember reading a post about someone who interacted with DMT beings for the first time, they went on to say

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...p;hl=dmt+beings

user: Rogdog

"jeez reptyle, sounds like youve been drinking the stuff!

I was looking for a hyperspace experience, and I got it in spades.

I know some people try to bring back a spiritual meaning, but I am a bit more shallow than that, just looking for a buzz, and I like it"

I should of expected that, seeing the discussion room is called 'spirituality and philosophy', there would be a tendency towards more spiritual experience. But as i've noticed from how some of my friends approach entheogens and once upon a time, myself included, there are definitely some major different ways which those around me approach these things.

I thought i made it clear that hedonism and spiritualism are not exhaustive or exclusive categories. I laid out specific meanings of the terms in order to try and flesh out why we in this community use entheogens. So rather than a series or critiques about how similar the two categories are, it would be great if you all accepted the difference i've stated [for interests sake] and answer which you lean towards - or do more often - and why?

Cheers,

[ThunderIdeal]

why? i use entheogens for spiritual purposes because the visions they offer can't be obtained any other way, not for me at my current level of devotion, anyway.

i think there must be atheist-type people out there who use entheogens not purely for hedonistic reasons, as their atheism seems to imply, but to gain insight into reality just like us. to see and do things differently, or whatever... anybody?

[mutant]

i think there must be atheist-type people out there who use entheogens not purely for hedonistic reasons, as their atheism seems to imply, but to gain insight into reality just like us. to see and do things differently, or whatever... anybody?

which arguement implies atheism is hedonistic as opposed to theism??? So an atheist cannot communicate any spirituality is what you imply??? LOL, that "just like us" bit makes me feel a bit alien, heh. Yeah, thunder, atheists are persons like you, and it's pretty normal they too are interested in gaining insight on reality, themselves etc, just like you , maybe even more than theists, because theists are supposed to have answered their basic "why??" questions [even if they are not satisfied inside] - our difference is that our insight is more unbiased

everyone starts hedonistically... people who like psychedelics a lot are forced to shift approach, because you cannot keep it recreational in no way... So this is not a conscious choice anyhow... they learn the hard way....

Mooksha you didn't even create a scale. OK lets say

1 pure hedonistic - 3 middle - 5 pure spiritualistic

also, the a spiritual might seem boring to some, and might be the greatest experience [thus hedonistic, pleasure] for others...

where my monkey is sitting now, sketchy numbers:

alcohol: 1~3

classic psychedelics: 5

dissociatives : amanitas [depending on dose and approach] can cover all the scale range, say 1~4, maybe 1~5, salvia divinorum is more serious, 4~5, but can be used like 3

cannabis: 1~3

stimulants like speed: pure 1

So basically each drug determines the approach, and the need and motivation determine the drug.

Also, one might go for kicks and get insight, or go for insight and get kicks, I answered more in the vein of 'why deciding to ingest something', not only 'how it usually goes' ...

Edited July 30, 2009 by mutant

[rogdog]

I was quoted earlier as a hedonist, but I have always been open to the spiritual side.

I have recently had my ego beaten up by tryptamines, but I still believe the experience is 'all in your head', and will give a user no physical grief.

I am Agnostic to gods, chakras and various voodoo, but I will be very happy to be proved wrong

*EDIT* or not, I <3 tryptos for my own reasons, and nothing will change my antics in the near future

*edit* +1 hedonist

Edited July 30, 2009 by rogdog

[rogdog]

To describe my situ better, it goes something like this...

Have a six pack of beer, feel like getting high..

Dose a gram of shrooms, sweet.. now I wanna get real high

X-tal or changa, now your talking.. sometimes an ego bashing, sometimes kalydoscope eyes

[Gunter]

I am anhedonistic.

I view hedonism as one of the greatest social problems we face.

Why care about the future if all you want is to get high and feel good?

Why make the world a better place if you can just enjoy wasting away all strung out?

I don't know a single hedonist that shares the same values I do, including for human life.

[rogdog]

I am an extremist

fixed ;)

I have spent plenty of time with trees for life, and bushcare. I was probably sober for 90% of my time volunteering.

Just because I dont feel a spiritual connection to (most)people or the earth, does not mean I dont want to improve the soil.

[G*P]

for me, both extremes bleed into balance.

in other words- i seek spirit in any shape, cos it feels so damn good!

Hedonistic spirituality:)

[drugo]

for me, both extremes bleed into balance.

in other words- i seek spirit in any shape, cos it feels so damn good!

Hedonistic spirituality:)

Agreed

I would ultimately class that as spiritualism (in regards to everyday understandings of the categories). I guess when i proposed the question, hedonism was laid out as something like pleasure without an essence of spiritual significance. That doesn;t mean that spiritualism needn't be without pleasure, it wouldn't be very appealing without some sort of pleasurable sensation.

It's difficult working with binaries for such grand concepts, especially when we have a tendency to think either or. I like the ol' proverb discussing the debate around dichotomising the world or not. It goes somehting like 'a donkey once looked up from a patch of yummy grass and commented "the ultimate dichotomy is - those who divide the world into dichotomies and those who don't"' -.

[mutant]

dichotomies are valuable to educate oneself and to accelerate processing and skimming through the vast load of shit sprayed upon our minds as 'info', 'data', 'truth'. Once some intellectual and spiritual maturity is established, then yes, dichotomies are a bar and distortive approach for reality. But it's a great way to learn and educate yourself.

The tricky thing about argueing, is that I need to question some of your ideas to know why you suppert them with so much heat, that doesn't necessarily that I doubt everything I question in the thread ;)

That's why I don't thing my input in these threads is so phased . But if you're annoyed, let me know...

Edited July 31, 2009 by mutant

[drugo]

dichotomies are valuable to educate oneself and to accelerate processing and skimming through the vast load of shit sprayed upon our minds as 'info', 'data', 'truth'. Once some intellectual and spiritual maturity is established, then yes, dichotomies are a bar and distortive approach for reality. But it's a great way to learn and educate yourself.

The tricky thing about argueing, is that I need to question some of your ideas to know why you suppert them with so much heat, that doesn't necessarily that I doubt everything I question in the thread ;)

That's why I don't thing my input in these threads is so phased . But if you're annoyed, let me know...

It would be hard to annoy me on here Mutant:) My main concern is people not understanding me given the highly reductive format of forum based discussion. I think dichotomies are great, they do offer a valuable method for analysing and understanding ourselves and our world. Having said that, some big philosophers and thinkers, after spending a good part of their life dividing the world up into ultimate opposites, have comfortably decided that this way of looking at things is a bit 'stale' in the way which it simplifies things. Jacques Derrida, the famous French postmodernist exclaimed in his famous argument called 'deconstructionism' that breaking things down to absolute opposites is fraught with inconsistencies and chaos. In other words, the sun and the moon are far more complex and profound to be reduced to opposites, as is the fe-male to male binary.

[rogdog]

So you have quoted some philosophers mooksha, but what do you think?

*edit* I tend to believe that we are all searching for something, what that thing is, is part of the great discussion.

Maybe it's a little like this... 3 people win a shared prize in the lotto;

1 lives a religious life, and believes god rewarded them for living a good life,

2 spends a lot of time meditating, and believes thier chakras were inline and the win was inevitable,

3 is a mathematicon[sp], and believes that if you play the same numbers in X ammount of games, you will win once, and they a fortunate to beat the odds and win early.

All three people got the same experience, but they all approached from different angles. Nobody can say one was right and the other was wrong.

I tend to see the experience a bit like that

Edited August 1, 2009 by rogdog

[drugo]

So you have quoted some philosophers mooksha, but what do you think?

My thoughts are fluid like a great river. I think many a thing rogdog. Did you mean, what do i think, in regards to dichotomies? I think binary thinking is powerful however not the only way of looking at things. By me introducing Derrida you should be able to assume that I appreciate his ideas.

I think different each moment of my life, some currents hold longer than others however i'm not silly enough to confirm a single thought absoultely. As I said, i think many a thing. What do you think rogdog? I like your idea that, in a sense, we are all on the same journey, just taking different paths.

[rogdog]

methinks you are a troll. it is easy to quote great thinkers, but can you take ownership of an idea?

*edit* I also think you might be female, and that you could be a great assett to this sausage fest!

Edited August 1, 2009 by rogdog