the history of circumcision

[ThunderIdeal]

this seems pretty fair, addresses both sides of the argument and altered my perception a little.

Secular Reasons For Circumcision:

1.Lower chance of urinary tract infection (UTI) in first year of life.

Evidence for:

Studies show that circumcised boys have a 1 in 1000 chance of UTI, vs. 1 in 100 chance for uncircumcised boys.

Evidence against:

UTIs are rare in boys and are easily treated.

2.Penile cancer prevention

Evidence for:

Cancer of the penis is three times more common among uncircumcised men than circumcised men, among whom the disease is virtually nonexistent.

Evidence against:

Penile cancer affects only one in 100,000 older men and is related to sexual behavior.

3.Lower risk of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs)

Evidence for:

Some studies have shown that the risk of STDs, vaginal disorders in partners, and HIV are lower for circumcised men.

Evidence against:

Risk is only slightly lower, and sexual behavior is a much better predictor of sexually transmitted disease frequency and type.

4.Cleanliness

Evidence for:

Uncircumcised males risk infection of the foreskin.

Evidence against:

Simple education about good hygiene virtually eliminates this risk.

5.Prevention of a more complicated circumcision later in life

Evidence for:

There are sometimes medical reasons for circumcision, such as phimosis (a condition in which foreskin retraction is impossible); post-infancy circumcisions are painful and carry a higher risk of complications.

Evidence against:

Phimosis and other penile conditions requiring circumcision are not very common and not generally considered a valid reason for routine circumcision.

6.A son should "look like" his father(the reason my parents had me circumcised)

Evidence for:

Some people worry that there may be confusion or even psychological problems if the father's penis is circumcised and the son's is not.

Evidence against:

Boys won't necessarily "look like" their fathers in all ways anyway -- hair color, eye color, body shape all may differ -- as may the penis.

7.Worry about being "strange"

Evidence for:

In the past, some adult men have requested circumcisions because they have heard from sexual partners that their penises were "strange," they were teased as children or they felt embarrassed in locker room situations.

Evidence against:

The statistics have changed so dramatically that, whatever your decision, your baby is unlikely to be considered "strange%u201D in this regard. (In any case, children should be taught to respect individual differences.)

Secular Reasons Against Circumcision

1.No medical reason for the circumcision

Evidence for:

Why remove a part of an infant's body that functions perfectly well? Circumcision interferes with the way nature intended the body to be.

Evidence against:

For full-term healthy infants, few risks are entailed in removing the foreskin, while there are some possible medical benefits.

2.Fear of complications

Evidence for:

As with any surgery, risks are involved, including excessive bleeding, infections or injury to the penis. There are also cosmetic concerns, as the foreskin can be cut too long or too short or can heal improperly.

Evidence against:

Complications are very rare. This is among the safest of surgical procedures; cosmetic complaints are rare. The complication rate is thought to be one in 200 to one in 500.

3.Pain of the procedure and the memory of the pain after the procedure

Evidence for:

Studies show infants experience substantial pain from the procedure, as shown by increased heart rate and blood pressure; the "memory" of the pain lasts, as infants circumcised without analgesia have increased sensitivity to vaccinations at four months.

Evidence against:

The AAP now recommends that some form of pain relief be used for all circumcisions. Complications from these pain medications are rare.

4.Possible risk of conditions that develop because a foreskin is not present

Evidence for:

When the foreskin is removed, the glans can become irritated, causing the opening of the penis to become too small. Ultimately, this leads to urination difficulties and requires surgery. Other possible conditions are tight, painful erections or adhesions and skin tags.

Evidence against:

Penile problems developing on a circumcised penis are uncommon.

5.Worry about decreased sexual sensitivity

Evidence for:

Some people feel the glans toughens up without its protective cover, and the penis is desensitized.

Evidence against:

No study has shown that circumcised men experience less sexual pleasure.

6.Lack of consent for a potentially life-changing operation

Evidence for:

Why not wait until the boy has the chance to choose for himself? Subjecting an infant to an unnecessary surgery that will change his body is unfair.

Evidence against:

Later in life, circumcisions are more painful and more dangerous. Parents have to make many life-changing decisions on behalf of their infants; that%u2019s the nature of parenthood.

7.Financial reasons

Evidence for:

In some areas, insurance companies or Medicare will not cover the cost of the circumcision (viewing it as an elective procedure).

Evidence against:

Many circumcision costs are still covered within the U.S. (but not in Canada); you must check with your insurance provider to verify. The surgery is generally not expensive.

[Thelema]

If you go for the clip,

you must go for the clit.

She likes to suck on something shaggy,

she like that extra baggy.

[baphomet]

actually thunder heres the health benefits and the reasons any male child me and my partner have will be circumcised

Decrease in physical problems involving a tight foreskin .

• Lower incidence of inflammation of the head of the penis .

• Reduced urinary tract infections.

• Fewer problems with erections, especially at puberty.

• Decrease in certain sexually transmitted infections (STIs) such as HIV, HPV, chlamydia, syphilis in men and their partner(s).

• Almost complete elimination of invasive penile cancer.

• Decrease in urological problems generally.

http://www.circinfo.net/health-benefits-and-reviews.html

And why the fuck would i teach my kid to do something that they have no need to my boys will be circumcised me and my partner are both in full agreement about that why have all these health risk when you can simply just remove it

ah and the big clencher as you mention uncircumcised penises are more sensitive so who will generally last longer and provide their partners with greater satisfaction personallly I love the fact I can easily last 30 minutes to an hour without even trying and have been able to give nearly every partner I've had multiple orgasms who knows maybe i'm just fucking good at what i do but i've always thought the whole circumsised thing was definitely a contributing factor

and hunab no I didn't say these women will not sleep with guys who are uncircumcised just that they prefer circumcised

in saying this i also believe there is no no reason for female circumcsion/mutilation as there are no health benefits and it can also reduce the womens ability to attain climax a guy can still have a massively strong orgasm when circumcised however a women is deprived of such joyful experiences and i cannot agree with that

so rebut those benefits with factual information and we may have something to discuss otherwise i fully stand by my opinion and feel its more then justified lets face it you uncircumcised guys are just jealous LMAO

EDIT : Insert reference link

Here's your rebuttal: http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html

All though on the contrary, I'm not sure we're left with much to talk about unless you can rebut that.. The same applies to the bullshit fearmongering claims about the almost non existant, easily treated cancer of the penis, etc, even if these lies were true (WHICH THEY CLEARLY ARE NOT!!!) it's like promoting a double Mastectomy at birth to prevent future risk of breast cancer. It's bad science generally promoted by those with an agenda.

ah and the big clencher as you mention uncircumcised penises are more sensitive

Wrong! And totally illogical.. Many of the touch-sensitive nerves in circumsised males have been severed (such as those found in the ridged band and the frenulum).

last longer and provide their partners with greater satisfaction

How would your false claim of increased sensitivity mean you would last longer? Wouldn't the opposite be true? More illogical bullshit!!

Victims of male genital mutilation (circumsision) are actually less likely to satisfy their partner as sex is generally less enjoyable for females who are having sex with mutilated males. Unmutilated males cause less uncomfortable/unnatural friction in the vagina due to the natural lubricating effect of the foreskin.

Edited June 22, 2009 by baphomet

[incognito]

im not cut, but i know alot of females who prefer cut!!!

think its the stench issue.

[Neoshaman]

ah and the big clencher as you mention uncircumcised penises are more sensitive

Wrong! And totally illogical.. Many of the touch-sensitive nerves in circumsised males have been severed (such as those found in the ridged band and the frenulum).

learn to read you fucking dipshit baph you just backed up my point now crawl back under your fucking rock you trolling tool I'm sick of your shit even in the other post were i backed you up n tried to help put a logical argument forward you still let it deterorate to the same pathetic trolling shit you always do

How would your false claim of increased sensitivity mean you would last longer? Wouldn't the opposite be true? More illogical bullshit!!

I said circumcised are less sensitive once again i stand by my point read the statement before you open your mouth and make yourself look like a bigger tool then everyone here thinks you are

[ThunderIdeal]

guys guys let's not go off half-cocked heh there i did it

in all seriousness, i may need to apologise for some of what i've said, without reading through it again i'm not sure but i recall being in a bit of a self-righteous fury.

[gromit]

Is there a higher rate of circumcision in Brisbane?

sorry

[baphomet]

ah and the big clencher as you mention uncircumcised penises are more sensitive

Wrong! And totally illogical.. Many of the touch-sensitive nerves in circumsised males have been severed (such as those found in the ridged band and the frenulum).

learn to read you fucking dipshit baph you just backed up my point now crawl back under your fucking rock you trolling tool I'm sick of your shit even in the other post were i backed you up n tried to help put a logical argument forward you still let it deterorate to the same pathetic trolling shit you always do

How would your false claim of increased sensitivity mean you would last longer? Wouldn't the opposite be true? More illogical bullshit!!

I said circumcised are less sensitive once again i stand by my point read the statement before you open your mouth and make yourself look like a bigger tool then everyone here thinks you are

Your the one trolling here, not me!! Any mod could see that clear as day.

I misread some of your previous ramblings but not all of it, which gave you an excuse to distract people.

I wonder if your tactic worked? I wonder how many people missed the fact that I successfully rebutted your previous post?? I know what your up to you are unable to respond in a reasonable fashion so you're trying to degenerate the thread to save face and even stooped so low as to blame me, fkn lame .

Edited June 23, 2009 by baphomet

[Neoshaman]

Your the one trolling here, not me!! Any mod could see that clear as day.

I misread some of your previous ramblings but not all of it, which gave you an excuse to distract people.

I wonder if your tactic worked? I wonder how many people missed the fact that I successfully rebutted your previous post?? I know what your up to you are unable to respond in a reasonable fashion so you're trying to degenerate the thread to save face and even stooped so low as to blame me, fkn lame .

no actually i'm sick of your shit same as most on this board you didn't rebut shit your a small minded tool that I really don't have the time or paitence to argue you with so as I said crawl back under your rock or bridge or whatever slimy fucking hole you came from everytime you get involved in a thread it just goes to crap you just waste peoples time and try to stir shit , I guess this helps you deal with your insuperiority complex but personally I wish you would find another fucking forum to deal with your mental problems on maybe try the Yahoo News Forums if they still exist they are full of arrogant little trolls like yourself I'm sure you could have fun there without annoying the fuck out of every other user

the only lame thing here is the myriad of useless crap you post to try and fulfill some pathetic little void in yourself its not just this thread its every thread you post in Why the fuck don't you post something of relevance to ethnobotany oh thats right you basically only post opinated crap I really don't have the time to deal with your shit Baph so this will be my last post arguing with you go choke on your fucking ego you lame arse pathetic little troll

[baphomet]

Lol, owned again

[Neoshaman]

Lol, owned again

you make my laugh

EDIT: Removed excessive bitchslaps

Edited June 25, 2009 by neoshaman

[psychoshaman]

it is there for a reason, so it should stay, otherwise we would be designed with out it, glad my mummy and daddy thought of that...

[amrad]

There was a study just done in Canada which did show a definite increase in cancer of the penis for uncut men. But I think this is a very rare cancer anyway so a big increase could be one in ten million men, as apossed to one in eight million that are cut. You know how they can play with the statistics.

It used to be done here pretty much as a matter of course unless the parents objected. But thats gone the other way round like most of the other western democracys. My two little grandsons are naturals, and no problems of anykind. Gives them a bit more to play with, not having a foreskin it always amazes me how they can stretch those things like rubber bands.

[Garbage]

They have been jewed in the you ess of ay.

[Teotzlcoatl]

How strange.... very interesting tho!

[Pelinster]

Penn & Teller have an episode on Circumcision, I recommend watching it.

My parents were early adopters of the abandonment of Circumcision. I used to hate them for it when I was a kid. I was the only person I knew my age who wasn't Circumcised and it was just another item on the list of things that made me feel like I was an outcast. That deep feeling of being completely alone, even in the presence of many - I would wish this on no-one.

Now though, I can't thank my parents enough! It really freaks me out that people will do this to their own children! It breaks my heart for all of those poor babies. And the reality is that now these kids will be the outcasts. We live in a time where I would have been normal, and that's the way it should be - I am sorry, because it is normal. It's kind of like God. Should we have to prove that it is meant to be there? or should the people who want to remove it have to prove without a single doubt that it's absolute necessary to remove? Because it _is_ there, it's not as if it is circumcised at birth and we are justifying the addition of a foreskin. If there is any doubt - the argument should fall on the side of - do nothing. Leave it alone..

In the Penn and Teller episode, they show a baby being circumcised. I think it is important that anyone who is considering doing this to their babies watch it first.

On another note - I think it is also important to support those who have been circumcised. It is out of their personal control and it can't be undone. So it is a sensitive issue and potentially very hurtful. Luckily we are all adults here and can treat each other with mutual respect.

I remember my Uncle making a comment to my mother which I overheard about how when I grow up 'I will smell' - that traumatised me and I was left waiting for this mysterious condition to occur. I figured out eventually that it was bullshit - just something to make circumcised people feel better! But the damage had already been done. I think it is important we refrain from getting emotionally involved in an issue like this. Our comments can be extremely hurtful. This is an area that is sensitive to men (anything to do with the penis) and thus, emotionally charged strikes have the ability to do far more damage than usual. Especially in children!

To all the children who have been circumcised - it's OK. You arn't going to suffer either, luckily circumcision in men isn't anywhere near as damaging as it can be in women. The subjectiveness of your experience means you will never have to know if you have lost anything.. But please.. Please.. Don't do this to _your_ children.. I beg you..

Edited June 25, 2009 by Pelinster

[ThunderIdeal]

thank you so much for that post pelinster.

the penis cancer seems legit, very rare for circumcised men to get it, but pretty rare in general. not a valid reason from where i'm standing. here's one way to look at it, if something goes wrong with a circumcision then you're fucked for your entire life, if you get penis cancer at the age of X well at least you had a normal life for X years.

[Garbage]

You are lucky your mother ignored an uncle who didn't wash his knob.

[FancyPants]

Great post, Pelinster.

I've on occassion noticed that some circumcised men seem to get offended at the suggestion of child abuse because they can't bear to equate their loving mother/parents labelled abusive. It shouldn't really be taken that way as they were different times and many mothers thought they were doing the right thing. We know better nowadays and the hygiene issue is even more moot, so there's no excuse now - except the medical one.

[ThunderIdeal]

there is just no excuse.

[baphomet]

you didn't rebut shit your a small minded tool

Yes I did! I posted a link (post 28) that contradicts much if not all of the information that you posted earlier (in post 22). Your a cowardly little maggot who's too scared to debate this with me cause your scared that your gonna get owned and look like an idiot again just like you did in the crowley thread.

I think your angry that you have been deprived of a foreskin, I feel sorry for you and would be willing to let you play with mine every now and again as long as you don't bite it.

you fucking dipshit baph

Watch your mouth you tryhard shaman wannabee indian motherfucker. (unless your prepared to be spoken to in the same manner)

Edited June 29, 2009 by baphomet

[Neoshaman]

Yes I did! I posted a link (post 28) that contradicts much if not all of the information that you posted earlier (in post 22). Your a cowardly little maggot who's too scared to debate this with me cause your scared that your gonna get owned and look like an idiot again just like you did in the crowley thread.

I think your angry that you have been deprived of a foreskin, I feel sorry for you and would be willing to let you play with mine every now and again as long as you don't bite it.

I think your angry cause no one would go near yours stop trying to offfer yourself sexually to forum members ( i've seen it on a few threads now )no one wants it in the real world no one wants it here either

Watch your mouth you tryhard shaman wannabee indian motherfucker. (unless your prepared to be spoken to in the same manner) ohh did I upset and/or offend you ROFLMAO ohh now I'm scared

EDIT : For refinement and so emoticon worked

Edited June 30, 2009 by neoshaman