The Meditation thread

[Chiral]

Hi guys... look I have always wanted to take time in my life to meditate more but with my hectic lifestyle and a small child to look after I barely find the time. That really isn't the hard part...my real issues are I've never really been taught the correct ways for a beginner and how to prepare ones mind for long sessions or even meditating on the fly.

The only times I am ever really able to meditate with any great success is when I use mescaline or a few of the other psychedelics like LSA and D. The best sessions are with mesc and I can run into 4hr sessions when properly dosed without any distractions. I'd like to learn how to meditate without psychedelics as well so that I can have those options...the problems I have with trying to meditate without is that I simply can't...my mind wanders almost straight away and I get up and go do something...it's hopeless I can't last more than 5 mins and sometimes when I have lasted longer I'm usually woken up by someone as I have fallen asleep...

Does anyone have any tips or methods they would like to share with someone who has a very wild wandering mind and can't focus without psychedelics...I would hope that its possible...is it...?

H.

[ThunderIdeal]

everyone has a rowdy mind, pretty much

there are different definitions of meditation, in one you aren't meditating until you trance.

i say forget about meditation 'sessions', forget about attaining any particular level of mindfulness. you can practise meditating now for five seconds, it all adds up. this is all i ever manage, and this is how you should start out. people are misled, i think, by statements like 'first, find somewhere comfortable without any distractions' etc. thats great if you're doing some heavy meditation but all you really need to do is practise reigning your mind in now and then.

focus your mind to a task other than internal monologue. visualising is one, but i'd go for something like focusing on breath, a mantra, chakra, no fancy techniques necessary whatsoever.

i tend to try for a sense of wholeness... just take in my whole being, make it peaceful, feel what there is to feel and try to feel natural... contrived stuff, tension disappears like paint under a sandblaster. mmmmmm.

[G*P]

Buddha is da man when it comes to meditation.

Tried many things, and prescribed many techniques for many different individuals.

Thousands of years of trial, error and development are contained within the buddhist doctrines. Most monasteries will warmly recieve you and teach for free. Bundanoon has plenty, including a shaolin monk not far from there.

If you got a busy head, I recommend a moving meditation. Tai chi, yoga, or chi gung. I also like chanting- which you will find at most buddhist monasteries, along with very cool communities of monks and laypeople to help you.

If you wanna get into those deep, and epic spaces.. anything concerning your breath is probably best. The most profound samadhi usually comes when the object of attention is simple, rather than complex and extraneous such as moving forms can be.

I reckon you should check out Mantak Chia and his system of Chi Gung. VERY practical system, ultimately leading to 'immortality' and INCREDIBLE states of consciousness. He actually runs 'darkness retreats' in thailand, where you'll have your pineal pumping for a week straight while you meditate underground in the dark.

Imagine a week long DMT trip, that was supplied by your own brain, where you were taught to project your spirit across the galaxy! Thats my kind of funk!

[ThunderIdeal]

baby steps

terrance mckenna said he couldn't meditate, IIRC. it's bullshit. shutting that voice up is hard, it wants to go on and on (and on). stop listening and it gets louder. anybody can gain a more peaceful mind when they realise that you DON'T NEED TO THINK, and they practice it. practice not thinking.

[kindness]

satyanada yoga beginners.

start with a 'yoga nidra' maybe.

I've got some yoga nidra tracks... they go for about 20 mins or so, are around 18mb however. Let me know if you are interested bro

mz

Edited April 8, 2009 by meanies

[Auxin]

To get the most benefits from longer meditation, or to be prepared for longer meditations, its important to have a daily practice of meditation even if they are not very long sessions. My default daily meditation lasts about ten minutes and it helps. Helps focus better in my day, helps dealing with stressful situations, and helps keep me prepared for longer meditations.

What my every-day meditation consists of is counting the breath in a way thats complex enough that I have to maintain consistent attention to it. When I breath in I think 1, then I breathe out 1, next in and out breaths are 2, I do that to ten then reverse and count back down to 1, then I do it again but up to 9 then back down, then up to 8 and back down, up to 7 and back down, etc. until all thats left is 1. That cycle typically takes me 5 minutes and I do two cycles every day. Dont try to control the breath, just count it.. its mindfulness, not lamaze A ten minute meditation may not sound like much against those guys who say they meditated for 197 minutes and attained the third jahna and floated off into whatever but the thing is our minds are made up of our thoughts and actions, a daily practice of anything will train our mind to gravitate toward that thing, even if just ten minutes a day by default.

I get a laugh out of those guys that are like 'first, find somewhere comfortable without any distractions', thats great and all when its available but dont limit yourself to that! The ultimate goal of meditation is for its mindfulness and peacefulness to be applicable to your daily life and how many of us have daily lives that never have noise, discomfort, or distraction! After practicing the above technique daily for a bit over two months I successfully meditated through a hour long root canal procedure... and it was a good meditation!

Edit: Oh and if you want australian produced free public domain guided meditation recordings you can get those here, same site also has free dharma talks if your into buddhism.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Auxin

[Chiral]

Hey really great replies guys ..I particularly like the counting one Auxin...I could probably get into that one and teach my little one to count at the same time... but seriously I'll give that a go..I recently went under for a nasty cancer operation and actually meditated whist laying on the wheelie bed all prep'd ready for surgery..the nurses kept looking at me kinda weird as I was doing some shallow chanting..they thought I was wacko or something and then this really cool gay nurse comes over and takes one look and listen to me and says hey its all cool brother meditation is a nice way to prepare your self for surgery..he broke my trance though as I smiled at him and he winked and said sorry carry on.

I really can't imagine an empty mind...I have come close when writing psytrance music I used to get so involved in say the pitch and sweep of the filter that absolutely nothing else was in my mind except that note...that's as close as I have come to an empty mind.

Hey

Meanies if you have a disc of those sounds I love it man I'll PM you and offer you something for trade if you like.

H.

cheers guys keep the info coming I really the idea of learning more about this...I might not need meds in the future if I can get good and purify my mind and teach it how to focus.

[ThunderIdeal]

"I really can't imagine an empty mind...I have come close when writing psytrance music I used to get so involved in say the pitch and sweep of the filter that absolutely nothing else was in my mind except that note...that's as close as I have come to an empty mind."

people will argue about what meditation is, but what you describe is seriously one of the best ways to live your life IMHO - total absorption in the present task, not the future, past, or whether you left the stove on. you can deal with otherwise challenging circumstances if you live like this, for instance while you're at shitty work if you actually absorb yourself in what you're doing, it is rewarding instead of frustrating. what you describe is a kind of living meditation, and we are alive after all. plus, how could you possibly nail the finer details of your composition with blundering verbal thoughts?

edit: as i believe auxin was saying, if meditation is always cross-legged behind closed door, what the hell is your mind going to do the rest of the time? it's ordinary BS? the more integrated it is with your actual life, probably the more impact it will have on your self. i'm not sure if it's a good idea for operating machinery though, there is some risk that you won't be as aware of your surroundings as you should be.

Edited April 8, 2009 by ThunderIdeal

[Auxin]

Meditation as in purposeful mindfulness practice can be incorporated into any task including operating heavy machinery, so long as your being mindful of the right thing. Like mindfulness of driving would be cultivating pure mindfulness of the act of driving- no radio, no cell phone, no planning dinner. Mindfulness of eating is actually a common meditation practice in buddhism! Select a bite being mindful of preferences, raise the fork being mindful of the sensations of raising it, put the food in your mouth and put down the fork, no selecting the next bite or planning for desert while you chew, just chew and swallow being mindful of the sensations, pick up fork, repeat as needed. Once you get used to that practice the food will taste better.

...speaking of driving another trick I once heard was stop light meditation. When your driving and you get stopped at a stop light stop the car and use it as a reminder to stop your mind too. Suspend all worrying about your day, etc, just stop and take a look at the present moment. Those little ten or twenty second instances of calm can actually lighten your overall daily load of stress.

I know its possible to achieve a completely empty mind

But very few traditions actually encourage people to achieve states like that because they arent useful, maby turnips are enlightened but even if so it doesnt help anyone Most useful is cultivating states conductive to mindfulness/single-pointed-awareness, serenity, and insight. The other consideration is to do so in ways that are beneficial, mindfulness while mugging someone is possible but not so ultimately constructive.

[coin]

where did this concept come from, of meditation meaning that you turn off the mind? that there is no thought? how has this pervaded our culture??

i hear it allllll the time...."i tried meditation, but i just can't turn off my mind," "i can't stop the thoughts" ... people even "get it" when they say "i couldn't silence my mind - it didn't feel natural" .... of course!! it isn't natural, and that's not meditation!!!!

[ThunderIdeal]

CBF making my mind up on that, it's been many years since i had any real talent for meditating to the point of trance, but i wonder coin if your mind is so calm that you don't realise what it's like for most people. stupid, pointless-ass fucking thoughts just yammering away in your head, a bit of quick analysis and you realise you'd be happier and healthier if your mind would just STFU for a while (with the ridiculous verbal thoughts). would i also be right in thinking you've been trained to observe your thoughts but not react (or something along those lines)?

why isn't it meditation? if i had to define SUCCESSFUL meditation i reckon it's something like one-pointed focus of the mind. thoughts may roll across your mind when you're successful here, but they're not the base kind of verbal thoughts or at the very least, there is a little gap between each thought rather than just non stop shit.

i'd like to know more of your thoughts on this ;)

[Chiral]

where did this concept come from, of meditation meaning that you turn off the mind? that there is no thought? how has this pervaded our culture??

i hear it allllll the time...."i tried meditation, but i just can't turn off my mind," "i can't stop the thoughts" ... people even "get it" when they say "i couldn't silence my mind - it didn't feel natural" .... of course!! it isn't natural, and that's not meditation!!!!

Coin you have my interest with that post ...care to elaborate....

I have always heard its about clearing you're mind too...but after reading some of the posts here I see meditation can be in many forms..."mindfulness" is one that is new to me and of great interest.

H.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Hunab Ku

[ThunderIdeal]

semantics? it's really about focus i thought, but the lower stratum of bullshit does get "cleared" hence 'clear/empty your mind (of lower stratum bullshit). maybe it isn't natural but it enabled me to reach the threshold of astral travel a few times.

[tomte]

Hanub Ku I would love to help you out if I can. I'm no expert but i'm starting to get more serious with meditation practice... and like you found it difficult to keep my mind fixed on something for more than a few seconds. I had to get serious about it because the last 2 years I was having panic/anxiety attacks, i didn't seek help nor did I take any medication (I refuse to, I never have and never will) so i needed a way to get things back on track naturally.

My favourite guide is from the tibetan 'Mahamudra' meditation method. You can check it out here: Html version or Pdf version. Please refer to the 'Resting Mind' section first which includes 8 meditation practices... choose what suits you best.

To begin with its about conditioning strong levels of concentration, so you are not sitting meditating for no reason!! Its so important to develop and helps not just in spiritual practice but in daily life as well. If it works for you it would be great to teach your son too as he should find it useful for school. Its easier to learn things if your mind is not distracted. This practice is often referred to as Samatha, calm abiding or tranquility based meditation. Once this has been mastered you have the mental sharpness to move onto insight/vipassana practice.

I'm using the 'Attending to Visual Appearances' excercise at the moment. Its a bit like what Auxin (hi!) mentioned about the traffic lights... you just keep returning your mind gently to focus on an external object. I find that a point of Light is the best to use because it counters any dullness you may feel when meditating.

What i find works is to spend anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour in the dark before you go to sleep every night. Use any small, dim light you may have, a candle, mobile phone, pen torch or whatever you find. As its the only thing lit up in your room concentrating on it solely is not too hard. One pointed, fixed concentration...... that's what its about.

Another good guide is 'The Perfection of Concentration' by Geshe Rabten. I like the bit where in the later stages of concentration walls can fall around you without causing any distraction.

I've made a small light connected to a voltage controller that someone may find interesting or usefull. Its nice because you can control the amount of light, if you are a bit tired a bright light will keep you going, while at the dimmest setting it keeps the room nice and dark so you cannot see or notice anything else. I've included a photo of it as an attachment so you can have a laugh, but I hope you get the idea

[t st tantra]

i was doing a raj yoga course in a fairly busy suburb,when a car used its horn there was no reaction/startle just the sensory experience......it impressed me greatly!

t s t .

[coin]

to get the full spectrum of benefit (heightened melatonin levels) from concentrating on a point of light as mentioned - the colour is important. i believe the light source should have a specific blue wavelength. this practice of steadying the gaze/concentration is known as 'tratak' in yoga. you can buy or easily make a candle holder with an adjustable height, because it is recommended to have the flame in a specific position (i.e. if you put your arm straight out in front of you doing a "thumbs up" - that is where the flame should be)

tratak can be taken inwardly as well (eyes closed)

i would caution against using them if there is any experience of visions or hallucinations that have caused problems (i can't say "mental illness" cos i'll get in trouble )

Edited April 11, 2009 by coin

[coin]

Coin you have my interest with that post ...care to elaborate....

I have always heard its about clearing you're mind too...but after reading some of the posts here I see meditation can be in many forms..."mindfulness" is one that is new to me and of great interest.

H.

the mind is a powerful tool that is designed to be always cogitating, making chatter, making ideas, grouping & categorising, making assessments, solving puzzles...("The mind is a terrible master but a wonderful servant") so if you are sitting around trying to meditate, possibly getting frustrated, thinking that "I'm not doing it right" or "it doesn't work for me" because your mind is never empty & it seems impossible...you're probably right!

it can simply be about training the mind to again & again return to the point of focus/awareness you've chosen. if you're concentrating on the breath for example, and every three seconds you get distracted, or you get distracted for 5 minutes, getting lost in thought, then you suddenly remember "oh yeah...the breath". then you gently lead the mind back.....again & again ...with patience & good humour -- then you're doing it. there's a balance of relaxation and vigilance that is required to stay mindful that comes with practice. i'm not saying it's never frustrating for even the most experienced meditator.

once one can leave behind, a little, the idea of good & bad meditation sessions, things really get going. a lot of the time you actually make better progress from the difficult sittings (if you sit) some days the mind will be so noisy and demanding, other days strong concentration, space and peace, other pleasant emotions/sensations will come. but when it comes down to it, it's that you're sitting there training your mind that's important. it's all about the intention/effort, the actual practice, and not so much about the outcome. ("worry not for the fruit of the action")

when people first start to meditate they may feel like their mind is noisier than before...but most teachers will say that it's simply an indication that you're already starting to become more aware of how erratic the mind can be (like the naughty monkey analogy).

definitely more clarity will start to come overall because you start to realise more often and more quickly when the mind is falling into unnecessary chains of thought...if these are negative thoughts about circumstances past or future, others or yourself, you can recognise "hmm that's not so helpful for my goals" and sometimes this recognition is enough for the concept to stop spinning in the mind (you can stay and watch it and it falls away eventually anyway), otherwise you can briefly refocus your attention (ie on the breath for a few seconds). this is definitely acknowledging the thoughts rather than trying to eradicate them or suppress them.

this last point vaguely illustrates how mindfulness practice and cognitive behavioral therapy work so well together.

Edited April 11, 2009 by coin

[Chiral]

Geez this thread is wicked and am learning so much..basically simple techniques that will suit me..I drove to the mountains yesterday and practiced the counting numbers backwards and forwards as the girls in the car chatted and laughed..I used it to see if they would distract me and was pleased to be able to get through a few rounds of this...I had to answer questions and agree with some of the talk so it was broken a few times..they where not told what I was doing i simply was testing myself and trying to build up a non distracting status. I love the light and candle idea as in the past visual distractions simply lead my mind on a merry go around of more brain noise and chatter.

What do you guys do with body positions when meditating in a setting at home..I'm curious is laying completely flat looking up to the ceiling okay or should one sit..is there a position the hands should be in..I mean picking fingernails and the usual habitual "doing something with your hands" needs to be stopped I'm assuming. In the past laying completely flat in a very dull lit room has had me going for very long periods of calmness, albeit mesc induced.

H.

[ThunderIdeal]

personally, i have lumbar pain so i've always been laying when i try for a long session. i seem to have trouble resting my arms at my sides and staying on my back (same if i'm trying to get to sleep, i want to be on my side, or on my back with my hands clasped under my head) but hands at sides is definitely what you should aim for. there is no rule for posture, even though most older schools of thought go for the sitting/lotus position. it IS better for real, powerful trance-inducing sessions because you can't fall asleep nearly so easily like that.

rahli posted these videos of ken wilber with electrodes on his head and a screen displaying his brain waves, and when he seems to quite carelessly lay back in a casual fashion, one hand at his head and the other by his side, so you see this isn't the most crucial part although to induce trance, i believe you do need to put your body to sleep first. if you head down this road hunab, you may want to start a session by sending your awareness all around your body and push the tension out, usually starting at the feet and working your way up to the face. this comes pretty naturally for the most part, although some tension is so ingrained it manages to hide from your probing.

well said coin.

[coin]

only issue with lying is that we pretty much only do it to sleep...so this response is habitual. but if you want to, try it and see if it's the case...

a lot of people find they fall into a half sleep without realising it...although the mind is calm, it does become somewhat dulled. this is perfect for bringing on the relaxation response (not that meditation isn't sometimes relaxing but that's not essentially the aim of it), which is something else you might like to look into.

most teachers emphasise an erect spine (beginners can go overboard with this when they hear "straight back" and try to flatten the spine's natural curves ) it should be anything comfortable and if sitting, it should just be a position that expresses dignity (to you), is i suppose one way you could put it, if that makes sense.

usually if someone has issues with sitting cross-legged, just sit in a chair that's firm (not a sofa you sag into). there are good meditation stools and cushions..these are easy to make, if you like DIY stuff. thing is, in a lot of countries they squat/sit on the floor all the time...to cook/eat, crafts, toilet, etc. if you're not used to it, you may have troubles finding *any* comfortable position. at some stage you just try to put up with it a bit. starting with short sessions, as you have been.

it can be said that the main purpose of hatha yoga (physical/exercise yoga) is to condition the body to be able to sit firmly in a meditation posture for a few hours or longer. all the other health benefits come along the path.

it would be good to just have the hands resting in the lap in whatever position you like. some people use certain hand positions (mudras) that are ascribed particular energetic purposes, but I wouldn't worry about that. it's a very subtle thing.

ThunderIdeal - if you're resting your arms at you sides, they shouldn't be right by your torso, they should be spread out and allowed to roll naturally with the palms up, and fingers comfortably apart. Same with the legs...they can be even be up to a few feet apart depending in how long the person's legs are, and the feet naturally roll out. This is basically "shavasana" yoga posture (Maybe that's what you're already doing? you could google for an image). This is the most neutral, unstressed position the body can assume. If you have lumbar pain still, you can put a massage bolster, pillow or roll up a few towels together and place it under your knees...this helps tilt the pelvis properly for some people. also you could try clasping your hands and laying them lightly on your lower abdomen for a while, which is very helpful to tune in to the breath, feeling the rise and fall.

good to hear you're getting excited about it Hunab...child-like curiousity is an excellent thing to bring to the practice - it's very opening.

Edited April 11, 2009 by coin

[coin]

hey, i just looked at your profile Hunab (you have me thinking about things) -- "And I think my mind has a brain of its own"..! haha! beautiful

[Sparkster]

Trying to even quieten down the mental noise becomes the cause of sporadic thoughts and all the typical tangents.

I tend to sit with my back against a wall, and I try and visualise any thoughts as pieces of paper, and whenever there is a thought, I imagine it going into a rubbish bin. And it will happen again and again and you may think "oh i just thought about my thought, theres another thought.. into the bin you go..." but eventually there are less pieces of paper going into the rubbish.

Anyway... Who cares if there are endless thoughts, it's to get into the habit of having a mind that doesn't resemble a chaotic pinball machine. Sitting quietly may feel like forever when your trying, but after 5 minutes you do get a little bored of thinking.

If you're just beginning, I probably wouldn't recommend more than 15 minutes at a time.

I think taking drugs to meditate is the complete opposite of what people are normally trying to acheive, you have to make your mind less busy, drugs are simply getting someone or something else to do the job for you!

Good luck!!

Edited April 11, 2009 by Sparkster

[ThunderIdeal]

"Sitting quietly may feel like forever when your trying, but after 5 minutes you do get a little bored of thinking."

heh my whole life i've enjoyed my own company for very long periods, to imagine or to think and now i'm older to mess around with my consciousness in various ways.

meditating on drugs produces interesting results, but i certainly wouldn't think them a pre-requisite for a session or necessarily beneficial to the session. meditating while heavily stoned, if you for instance try to conjure and hold an image, you will find it impossible to maintain that image in the same way. also, sometimes unusual hallucinations (or shall we say sensory input) come to you when you meditate, but becoming entangled in those effects will stop you from going further into the meditative state, likewise as you go further into the meditative state those sensory inputs increase. being on recreational drugs is like pre-burdening yourself with distracting effects. it produces interesting results but not the best meditation.

[coin]

yeah, like some particular meditation practices, with some substances you can get seduced by phenomena...but every now and then you can get a glimpse of something that can be quite motivating....you get that from regular sober practice also

[Chiral]

How do aromas fit into things..I mean is it of value either way to have a particular smell that can ease your minds noise or is a smell free room no different...the reason I ask is I'm trying to nut out the external distractions and introduce or dispose of them as necessary...this is all irrelevant when meditating on the fly when out and about.... but when pre emptive sessions are going to be done I would think that considerations of these external distractions would be of benefit.

H.