What's Wrong With Antisemitism & Islamophobia?

[baphomet]

Hi there

Just wanted to get your thoughts on the matter, is Antisemitism & Islamophobia wrong? If so why??

[nabraxas]

errr.... yes.

because you can't make generalisations about 2 groups containing millions ov different people.

do i win a prize?

[~shameless~]

I'm seconding that opinion

I think its quite deconstructive,

You won't get too far in life, in most places bieng antisemetic or islamaphobic,

can i have second?

[baphomet]

So it is wrong to generalise and label people as inferior to you based on their race or beliefs is this correct? And any such ideology should therefore be condemned am I right??

EDIT: You won't get too far in life, in most places bieng antisemetic or islamaphobic,

Really? So you won't get too far in israel for example if you are islamophobic? And you won't get to far in a muslim country if your antisemetic I take it?.. Please, do go on... Tell me more.

Edited June 23, 2008 by baphomet

[nabraxas]

So it is wrong to generalise and label people as inferior to you based on their race or beliefs is this correct? And any such ideology should therefore be condemned am I right??

you mean like imperialism?

now what about my prize?

[Auxin]

Should we also discriminate based on the end of a boiled egg people crack open first?

[PD.]

Why only pick on the Jews and Muslims baphomet? just hate everyone equally man, makes things alot less complicated.

[TheFriendlyPlanter]

It's the dickheads you should be afraid of, there are dickheads in any race/religion/BBQ.

How must the muslim world see us now thanks to the second greatest dickhead of all time -George W. Dickhead.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Interdimensional monkeyman

[Auxin]

Given that the pentagon now openly admits that in this war it has aerially dispersed 1,089,600 kilos of nuclear waste across Iraq alone I doubt the average person in the muslim world has a warm fuzzy spot in their hearts for either of our countries, and I dont just mean muslims- if I were a christian in the muslim world I'd be equally unbearably pissed at the west.

I say both of our countries because australia gives physical and logistical support for the dispersal of uranium tailings across Iraq and the use of aerially dispersed antipersonnel mines and white phosphorous bombs, not to mention hosting our military and intelligence bases on aussie soil and sending aussie troops over to the middle east.

Every country that supports our war of terror will eventually realize that refusing to do so and being subject to US sanctions would have been far less harmful to them in the long term.

Welcome aboard the league of hated imperialist terror states

We Really need a new generation of hippies, man.

[Torsten]

I agree that discrimination against any group on the basis of generalisation is a bad thing. HOWEVER, what if the group's core belief is equivalent to what you would find unacceptable in an individual. Similarly to how Interdimensional said that there are dicks in every group, what if the whole group is by definition full of dicks.

For example, let's take a white supremacist group that has beating gays and blacks in their manifesto as an essential part of belonging to the group. Doesn't that justify having an opinion about the whole group? Isn't it up to the individual member of that group to distance themselves from it if they do not want to be associated with what the group stands for?

I think for as long as individuals or subgroups do not disassociate themselves from other subgroups or core groups with despicable values then it is their own fault for being tarred with the same brush. Obviously this has huge implications for muslims in terms of killing innocent people in suicide bombings. Similarly, I think every single jew has a huge problem here because of the core of their belief that they are superior beings with a birthright to a tract of land based on their religion. Christianity has the same issue of superiority and a long history of cruelty and destruction.

I personally can't overlook these issues when thinking about these religious groups and I dislike them for it. As such, I can't dissociate the issues from an individual I meet until they dissociate themselves from the issue.

eg, I can't have respect for a christian who can't respect gays or peace. I can't be fair to a jew who sees himself as a superior chosen one. And I can't have compassion for a muslim who doesn't denounce atrocities. The good thing is that many members of these religions we encounter IN AUSTRALIA will readily distance themselves from these things. But not all. And certainly not the majority in the world.

[~shameless~]

we live in aus i'm guessing u do too

you are wrong assuming isreali people are all islamaphobic and likewise islamic people antisemetic,

The jewsh people i live around, i live in balaclava (helmets every where hehe) are not at all islamaphobic AT ALL

Whatever society, club, sect you belong too anti anything (regarding race, sex, age, disability) is not a way of going forward,

Remainding open is how ever

'I might add i dont think israel or iran are really going forward to peace because of this u see

Edited June 24, 2008 by GREEN HOUSE AKA spice1

[Ace]

In direct answer to the topic heading, the problem with any kind of phobia or hatred is that it prevents one from experiencing a full and happy life. That, my friend, is what is wrong with the two.

I totally agree with Auxin on the need for a hippie revival. Peas, Lub and Happyness. What more could the world need?

P.S. That picture is adorable

[Auxin]

I dont think people should have to go around denouncing the worst atrocities done by members of their religion in order to justify themselves to others. If they are against it sure they should act according to their conscious, but why should they be expected to reaffirm that denunciation of the most fanatical 0.01% for every person they meet? Can there be no basic belief in even the smallest quanta of human decency?

Keep in mind most people adopt either the religion of their family or of the majority of their society to avoid social tensions. Most of the remainder choose their religion because they think it has something valuable to offer them. Its only a rare few that adopt a religion based on the most hate centered interpretation of that religion.

While I dont agree with it most white supremacists dont even become white supremacists for the hate in it, they just feel a disempowerment and want to have some way they can elevate their purpose in the world and they mistakingly choose a bad way to deal with those feelings.

Just as totalitarian governments only exist in propaganda written by their adversaries so too do totalitarian religions of hate only exist in the minds of religious bigots.

I've never once met a muslim, a jew, a christian, or any other faith or race and immediately expected them to denounce atrocities done by a handful of men half a world away and I am very glad my mind doesnt work in such a way as that expectation would ever manifest in ordinary social interactions.

As for torstens example of a white supremacist hate group, upon meeting a white supremacist I do in fact disagree with their beliefs but to escalate that to hate would be an insult to my own character and would only perpetuate hate and ill will making me no more intellectually or philosophically developed than those who hate blacks just to empower themselves. So no, it is not right to discriminate against white supremacists in the normal sense of the word discrimination.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Auxin

[apothecary]

All those who assisted in ensuring this didn't turn into a shitfight win the prize. Be at my door before 5pm to collect.

So it is wrong to generalise and label people as inferior to you based on their race or beliefs is this correct? And any such ideology should therefore be condemned am I right??

You are so very not right. I think that people always follow their humanity rather than their ideals whether they like to admit it or not. Even the most radical ideologists. To that end, I am quite happy to condem people, and groups of people for their actions or apathy. I'm not gonna condemn Iraqi Sunni bakers for the work of Al Qaeda in Iraq (I condemn Al Qaeda and the US). I'm not gonna condemn Polish Jews for the actions of conscripted Israelis in Haifa.

Any such condemnation would be foolish and just as ideologically radical/narrow-minded as those you condemn.

Really? So you won't get too far in israel for example if you are islamophobic? And you won't get to far in a muslim country if your antisemetic I take it?.. Please, do go on... Tell me more.

Heh. Despite your patronising tone here, I find the naivity of this comment so amusing as to be rediculous.

Islamophobia in Israel is a political/influence tool of the few to manipulate many, just as anti-Semitism in Islamic countries. Do you honestly think those few are going to give up or even just dilute their grip on this power for the first rabid moron to come along? Most certainly not. At best you might be offered a suicide vest to prove your fidelity by Hamas or some such similar action.

[MindExpansion]

THe problem with some religious/cultural groups is that it, like Torsten said, is at their core to do things the general community finds morally unacceptable. This isn't just a Muslim thing, while their religion might dictate more violent action than say, Buddhism, look at Christianity's beliefs, they may be changing in some subgroups now but there are still the hardliners who will condemn you to hell for not believing. All religion's think they are superior to the others, even if they don't say it, they only hold their belifs because they think they are in the right (even if those beliefs were originally forcedly imprinted into their impressionable young minds by their parents with the help of a religious school), and they all thus feel in some way superior, colonisation was a good example of this, the christian's moved into africa and told the locals to give up their beliefs and take up the word of the catholic god. Its ridiculous for them to think they have the right to do this but they 'know' that their path is the only right one, just as the muslims, the jews, the buddhists, the [insert religion here] 'know' that their way is the only way, and it is this confidence that only one religion is right and it is always the religion to which you belong, that causes so much shit in the world. The jews believing that god gave them that land has caused endless shit, I mean sure they needed a place to go and call home but the fact that 'god' gave it to them gives them the right to just go in and take it, I mean thats ridiculous, when, where and how did this god give them this message, some schizophrenic jew one day thought he heard god say it, well I apologise if thats offensive but it is just one possibility.

Anyway back on topic, discrimination is wrong for the most part, and this is always tricky to say because of course what gives you the right to discriminate against one group and not the other...well nothing but your own personal beliefs, and do they give you the right? Yes, but keep it to yourself because not everyone will share the same view, to say you couldnt discriminate would be discriminating against those who do so you can't make that statement without being somewhat hypocritical.

So while you may discriminate against those muslim hardliners who feel that blowing themselves up and killing as many people as possible will get them 72 virgins and a place in paradise, they do it because they feel it is right. Would it happen if religion wasn't taken so seriously, probably not, that is why you don't see your average atheist down the street strapped with dynamite or holding an RPG.

You can't however discriminate against Muslims in general just because those hardliners do exist, even if there MAY BE (and i dont know if there are for a fact, i might think they are but this may just be discriminating) more hard line pro-action muslims than are to be found in other religions or cultural groups, because the majority dont feel that killing thousands of innocents is right.

Yet does saying that you can't discriminate against all muslims or catholics just based on the minority hard line activists, mean that to discriminate against a group of (using the ongoing example) white supremicists who do engage in violence and hate is wrong. I mean, the only people in the world who would tolerate this sort of behaviour are the members of that group (along with some members of some religions or cultures when it comes to homosexuals) So can I not discriminate them because I think their core beliefs are disgusting? Of course I can, because they ALL involve themselves in that group by choice, and they all hold the beliefs that blacks and gays should be treated like shit. If they didn't hold those beliefs they wouldn't be part of the group, so its not like religion where there are variations in beliefs (This will only apply if we are talking about a small group of white supremicists, rather than a large organisation where, like with religion, there may be variations in belief). In these cases where there are no variations in beliefs in a group and you can happily group them all into the same basket then discrimination against that group is probably fine, but which group you discriminate against will depend on your personal beliefs. Discriminating against groups within which there are variations of beliefs is wrong, because you are incorrectly categorising them as all holding the same beliefs which you feel are bad beliefs, when they may not all hold those beliefs.

Hope that all made sense, its easy to ramble when you right off the cuff.

Peace and i didn't mean to offend anyone if i did,

Mind

[TheFriendlyPlanter]

I think you'd find White Supremacists are usually a bit loose in the screws and are a bit more 'fuckhead' than 'dickhead'.

I'm yet to meet a Muslim I don't respect, I find they are peaceful, have strong morals and are disgusted/ashamed at suicide bombers etc.

I really think the media demonises them and their beliefs, and we all know who runs the media in this country, Satan himself.

I think it's everybody's personal responsibility in this world to actively work hard for peace. You just can't afford to be lazy and take peaceful relations for granted, because when dickheads strike you need to avoid falling into the trap of fearing each other.

That's how Bush got public support for the war, fear mongering (via the media). Remember that whole WMD thing???

Without that public support Bush couldn't have invaded Iraq.

So what do hippies look like these days anyway? here's what...

[apothecary]

Wow now are starting to diverge from topic

Public support for the Iraq war was largely manufactured. There were 10k+ attending protesters in Chicago and other cities and were reported by the media as 1000's or not reported at all.

[Auxin]

They didnt just under-report numbers. When we were gearing up to deploy military ships to go and invade iraq one buddhist temple I routinely listen to dhamma talks at got together and meditated on the rail road tracks that were being used to haul munitions to military vessels and they actually got the trains to stop! The leader said 'the Buddha taught us the importance of meditation, Gandhi taught us the importance of where you meditate' They were all arrested. No news paper reported it.

Who knows how many other such instances happened. The state owned media, ie all american media with serious investigative capacity, refuse to investigate such things.

...but now I'm going off topic

[chilli]

Public support for the Iraq war was largely manufactured.

Yes, it was like a big trap, and most people fell right into it... and now what can we do?

[WoodDragon]

Baphomet.

You could turn your question on its head and ask 'is entheogenophobia wrong?'; 'is anti-shamanism wrong?'

I can dig Torsten's take, and I think he has a few points, although Auxin and Mindexpansion have good cases too.

Me - I reckon anyone's perfectly valid right to swing their fist stops where my nose starts, and that's how I assess any situation, whether it is political, religious, environmental, or whatever. It can become a bit zen sometimes, but the basic philosophy works well for me. With a bit of consideration it gives me answers to both sides of most any dichotomous dispute.

My 2 cents.

[WoodDragon]

Oh, and I was in Hyde park in Sydney for the pre-invasion protest, and I reckon that there were upward of two hundred thousand people - easily. And I say that as a guy who counts animals for a living.

I travelled to Sydney by train, and then by bus because there were so many out-of-towners going to the protest, and by the time I arrived in central Sydney the streets were packed to the rafters. We were early, so I was right in front of the diases in the Park, but later there were people for blocks and blocks away who couldn't possible come within a country mile of the Park. The march to Circular Quay was almost farcical because people were still lining up to start when the front of the parade had walked the couple of km there, and then back again.

It was an amazing display of Australian common-sense, and an indescribable show of the stuff that the average bloke in the street is really made of. And our not-lamented erstwhile prime-monster John Howard had the temerity to call those hundred of thousands of peace-loving people 'rabble'.

When he said that I did, uncharacteristically, actually have a violent thought or two...

My satisfaction now is that history is already judging him harshly, and time will not age his reputation gracefully at all. Unfortunately for us, the rest of Australia is tarred with his colonial inclinations.

[baphomet]

you mean like imperialism?

now what about my prize?

Ism this and ism that.. I was referring more to JUDAISM! Torsten knew what I was getting at and took the words right out of my mouth so I will just quote him:

"I think every single jew has a huge problem here because of the core of their belief that they are superior beings with a birthright to a tract of land based on their religion."

If judaism considers me to be an inferior "goy" why should I not be able to speak out against judaism? Why are they so far beyond criticism? Their sky fairy was himself a genocidal maniac who instructed them to commit genocide themselves even against babies and to kill innocent animals and even plants, I don't agree with this so why can't I speak out against it? Why should I be labeled an antisemite and persecuted for this? I wonder if my critics have read the OT or even heard of the talmud? Would you like to hear some quotes? do you want to know what Jewish scripture really has to say about you??

Why only pick on the Jews and Muslims baphomet? just hate everyone equally man, makes things alot less complicated.

I hate political correctness and those who try preaching it to me far too much for me to even bother hating anyone else!

"you are wrong assuming isreali people are all islamaphobic and likewise islamic people antisemetic,"

Please point out where I have said this or made this assumption, thanks. But now that you mention it, the fact is that you are wrong for a number of reasons, firstly you said (quote) "You won't get too far in life, in most places bieng antisemetic or islamaphobic"

That is complete horseshit! The leaders of Israel are extremely islamophobic (as are MOST of its citizens), Most if not all muslim countries are also populated mainly with antisemites and many are lead by the most extreme antisemites in the world, take Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for example, he thanks god for the opportunity to lead a "martyr nation" and sacrifice millions of people including himself for the destruction of israel, someone will soon tell me that I am exadurating and that it is not the majority of these people who are antisemitic so let me just tell them in advance that they have no fucking idea what they are talking about and I suggest they look into it a little further before commenting, I would be amazed if you could find one person in Iran who was not antisemitic other than its small jewish population, the situation would be similar in countries like Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, etc!

Secondly, there are israelis who are muslims so obviously not all israelis are going to be islamophobic but I suppose you were trying to imply that not all religious jews are islamophobic is this correct? If so please explain how this is possible.

Likewise your statement that all islamic people are not antisemitic is also naive and is incorrect!

"we live in aus i'm guessing u do too The jewsh people i live around, i live in balaclava (helmets every where hehe) are not at all islamaphobic AT ALL"

WTF is this bush week? Check my 'climate and location' dude, I'm not an idiot!

"I think its quite deconstructive"

What is it deconstructing? A deluded sense of reality, misplaced feelings of guilt, fear of free speech, etc? Is this really such a bad thing??

"I dont think people should have to go around denouncing the worst atrocities done by members of their religion in order to justify themselves to others"

"All it takes for Evil to prevail in this world is for enough good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

IMO not only should they denounce the atrocities committed in the name of their religion, they should denounce their religion as a whole in the case of judaism, islam, christianity, hinduism, etc!

"Just as totalitarian governments only exist in propaganda written by their adversaries so too do totalitarian religions of hate only exist in the minds of religious bigots."

What? I had to read that several times and I still can't believe you wrote it, care to point out the propaganda that I have fallen for and free the mind of this religious bigot?

"You are so very not right. I think that people always follow their humanity rather than their ideals whether they like to admit it or not. Even the most radical ideologists"

So let me get this right.. the most radical ideologists who are preaching mass murder are following their humanity?

"I'm not gonna condemn Iraqi Sunni bakers for the work of Al Qaeda in Iraq (I condemn Al Qaeda and the US). I'm not gonna condemn Polish Jews for the actions of conscripted Israelis in Haifa. Any such condemnation would be foolish and just as ideologically radical/narrow-minded as those you condemn."

So judaism isn't responsible for the atrocities committed in Haifa? And islam is not responsible for the work of al quaeda?? Is this correct?

"I find the naivity of this comment so amusing as to be rediculous."

Wait till the end of this thread and we'll see yet again who is naive!

And I suppose that islam is a religion of peace and its only a small minority of muslims who misinterpret it and use it to fuel violence is this correct???

"I'm yet to meet a Muslim I don't respect, I find they are peaceful, have strong morals and are disgusted/ashamed at suicide bombers etc."

[nabraxas]

If judaism considers me to be an inferior "goy"

Why are they so far beyond criticism?

there's where you make the big leap. The 'ism' isn't the people.

but i can see there's no point in debating this so i'll just ask, IF you are 100% right in your assertions then what is your final solution?

Edited June 24, 2008 by nabraxas

[baphomet]

Ha Ha Ha , to answer your veiled question, no I am not a Nazi nabraxas!

It is not the people I have a problem with so much as the 'ism' which Dr Richard Dawkins likened to a virus which often infects the minds of people before they are capable of critical thought, what is your solution to this nabraxas or don't you see the problem?

Just to clarify, I am not a white supremecist, homophobe or anything else for that matter, the smart people here will realize that I am actually against discrimination.

[nabraxas]

what is your solution to this nabraxas or don't you see the problem?

i asked you first....

Edited June 24, 2008 by nabraxas