Heimia Smoked.

[spiders]

After making a very crude extract smoke through my pipe, I was pleasantly surprised by my experiences.

After four inhalations I found myself slightly confused, distanced from the pain in my pulled hamstring, and unable to locate the source of sounds. I didnt have auditory halluncinations, but Id disagree with the contention of the information in Erowid, in that the main effects were auditory.

Well worth a try.

[t st tantra]

i agree auditory effects can be totally lacking,but my interest in this aspect of the heimia exp is quite strong as i found it a central feature in my strongest exp.my description is that all sounds seemed equi distant and became like a wall of sound around me.i then fetalized at the centre and had a full on entheogenic exp,guided through an intense visualisation of my life and problems.10 years and about 20 tries later that depth of exp once more revealed itself,offering the explanation that it was to do with psychosis.from somewhere it was stated that heimia was a treatment for drug induced psychosis,it seems this treatment may only work if you need it,or induce it with a psychomimetic.this might explain the increased effects when combined with trich.dose did not seem that relevant as the second breakthrough dose was less than a normal recreational dose!i was just in a pretty hyped internal state at the time,with constant 'talking to myself'.

t s t .

[spiders]

Interesting comments. Ive also noticed that wall of sound and the distancing - and i could not locate the source of sounds. My tv sounded like it was making noise from behind me, while i sat directly in front of it.

[woof woof woof]

will have to choke the chicken with Heima again..

after having smoked self made it a few times, almost no noticable effects.

[ 22. March 2003, 10:18: Message edited by: brian ]

[Torsten]

Finally someone doing some new work on this.

ammoniacal acetone extracts seem to be the best, indicating that an alkaloid freebase is involved.

[spiders]

I was surprised about the strength of effect - i only had about four pipe fulls.

Im surprised people sell bags of dried Dagga when Heimia is a nicer smoke and has much more interesting effects.

[waterdragon]

'ammoniacal acetone'. could you expand on that process a little please - as it relates to heimia.

[bloodbob]

sounds like ammonia dissovled in acetone

[Torsten]

if a freebase alkaloid is soluble in acetone, then it is important to make sure the alkaloid is actually in freebase form when extracting. the simplest one step process is to put some ammonia in the acetone. To do this you could bubble some ammonia gas into the acetone, but it is unlikely anyone has access to ammonia gas unless they hwork in a chem lab and thus woldn't be asking this question .

So the way around that is to put a few mls of 28% aqueous ammonia solution into the acetone. This strength is also not commonly available except in cleaning supplies or chem supplies.

So if none of this is an option I am sure you could also use 5% ammonia solution which you can buy at woolies/safeway. Just whatever you do, don't buy 'cloudy ammonia'. The 'clouds' are detergents you don't really want in your final smoke.

The actual ammount of ammonia is minimal. if (after stirring the herb into it, the pH paper indicates above pH11 then you're doing fine. if you don't have any pH paper then just have a smell of the herbslush about an hour after mixing - if it smells at all of ammonia then it is still basic.

[t st tantra]

another reference i once saw was to native use of smoked heimia with shrooms,forget where.

t s t .

[wyyrm]

I've got a tray with a fair number of very young Heimia 'sproutlings' coming up in my kitchen windowsill. I'm looking forward to raising these young'uns to harvest size so I too can add my two cents about Heimia's effects. BTW, here's a question that's been eating at me for a while: how is Sinicuichi pronounced? I can't seem to find a pronunciation key for it anywhere...

[Caldeye]

According to classical Nahuatl pronunciation it should be something like sin-ick-witch-ee (?)

Nahuatl pronunciation - web page

but, I suppose, an Engilsh-speaking person would pronounce it some other way:)

[squiresk]

"will have to choke the chicken with Heima again"

err. why?

k.

[bloodbob]

I was trying to forget he said that squiresk now you jogged my memory frankly it was too much information.

[Auxin]

"Id disagree with the contention of the information in Erowid, in that the main effects were auditory."

Has anybody really compared the effects of H. salicifolia and H. myrtifolia? The alkaloid profiles have some interesting differences.

H. salicifolia has VERY little nesodine compared to the concentration of the other alkaloids in there, but in H. myrtifolia nesodine is one of the major alkaloids with a whoping 312 times the concentration as is in H. salicifolia! H. myrtifolia also has much more heimidine and lythridine, but much less lythrine. Vertine (cryogenine) and lyfoline concentrations are basically the same in both.

Perhaps the differences in effects are because some people are using H. myrtifolia rather than H. salicifolia. So if H. myrtifolia has auditory effects it may be because of the increased ammounts of nesodine, heimidine, or lythridine where as if its H. salicifolia that has the auditory effects perhaps its because more lythrine is in there.

Another possible factor is the influence of light. Throughout the day the alkaloid concentrations change because the alkaloid concentration goes down in the dark and up in the light, but the concentration of all the alkaloids are not necasarally made/destroyed at the same rates- so if the ratio of the different alkaloids changes throughout the day Heimia harvested at 9:00 AM could have slightly different effects than Heimia harvested at noon.

Yet another factor could be the preperation methodology of the brew. Not everyone does it the same.

[t st tantra]

i experienced the auditory effects really only with fermented brews,but intense closed eye visuals have been experienced [rarely] with a water extract too,and at a lower than normal dosage.i beleive there is an interaction with personal chemistry which produces more intense effects[the psychosis issue].

t s t .

[Auxin]

"i experienced the auditory effects really only with fermented brews"

All data sofar indicates that there is definatly a change in the chemistry of Heimia under the conditions of the traditional Heimia brew process (whether the process is fermentation or photocatalized enzymatic activity is still in dispute- many of the Heimia alkaloid biosynthesis related enzymes are known to be light dependant and I have repeatedly heard that the traditional brew method only works right when the enzymes are still active). Sofar I have yet to find a single scientific comparative analysis between fresh Heimia and the traditional brew, more work needs to be done.

[Adrian]

Would it be possible to substitute with sodium hydroxide?

I know I've got some Heimia extract sitting around here someplace, I just don't want to smoke it though.

(hmmm...the murcurochrome method??

[t st tantra]

after 10 years growing and close examination of two other multi plant colonies i belong to the school which conciders all heimia the same species,variation in leaf shape being due to local conditions.no doubt alkaloidal variations would be due to local conditions too.

my exp are currently done with water ext disolved in the mouth,or hot water for tea.

t s t .

[Auxin]

"i... concider... all heimia the same species,variation in leaf shape being due to local conditions.no doubt alkaloidal variations would be due to local conditions too"

Comparative phytochemical studies proved that differences in the alkaloid profiles are not due to environment, but rather genetics. Even when grown in identical conditions and the plant matter from each is harvested at the same time the alkaloid profiles of H. salicifolia, H. myrtifolia, and H. montana are all quite a bit different from one another.

I can dig up the references if you want, one of them is:

Phytochemistry, Vol. 29, No. 5, pp. 1683-1686, 1990.

[t st tantra]

auxin,this sort or research is apleasant suprise,do you know the story behind it?is any available online?and have you come accross the studies on drug induced anxiety?i'd love to know about them!

tried to smoke root bark today,but gave it away as too unpleasant after two puffs,still a bit headachey now!

smoked about 5 fresh very mature leaves the otherday,picked in the morning,smoked in the evening,no real drying,smoked very well,not a full dose but stronger than expected,effects more complex,any active 'pigment type' compounds?

saw your site note 4 re light effects i was curious but assume its still under construction.

t s t .

[Auxin]

Light.

One of the Heimia studies I've read proved that light is a requirement. Not a surprise because the proposed biosynthetic pathway uses light dependent enzymes, in the study the plants kept in the light had a fairly continuous increase in all alkaloids while the plants kept in the dark had a fairly steady (very steady in the case of cryogenine) steep decrease in alkaloids.

That study was:

THE EFFECT OF LIGHT ON THE PRODUCTION

OF HEIMIA ALKALOIDS. Phytochemistry, Vol. 24, No. 10, pp. 2215-2218, 1985.

In my previous post I gave reference to the comparative study. Thats where I got three out of four of the sets of alkaloid concentrations for my Genus Heimia page (look at the footnotes on those tables, the ones saying [2] were from the same comparative study.)

And yes, the 'http://www.shaman-australis.com/~pic/Auxin...mia/Heimia.htmlAlkaloids of Genus Heimia' page is an ongoing project- I put it up REALLY prematurely to get the alkaloid structures on the net because for years I couldnt find them and I know others had the same problem. I dont know how long it'll take me to get the thing near compleation but it could take a while (and naturally every time I find a new study it'll be upgraded again).

[bloodbob]

Adrian yes you probably could.

Just something to note don't store acetone with a base for a long peroid of time ( i.e. sodium hydroxide or ammonia ) because it will react with itself poducing a new compound with a much higher boiling point which isn't gonna evaporate off.

[Auxin]

If you add sodium (or potassium or calcium or barium) hydroxide or strong acids to acetone expect it to start producing diacetone alcohol immediatly.

Diacetone alcohol boils at 167.9 C (and it smells good) and with prolonged exposure to bases or acids it will turn into mesityl oxide bp. 130 C (smells like honey).

Dont expect either to be good for you.

And thats not all, with bases acetone becomes pretty reactive, it'll react with aldehydes, ketones, phenols, etc. to produce products you did not expect.

Dont assume the products will be non-toxic.

[John_Barleycorn]

Torsten:

if a freebase alkaloid is soluble in acetone, then it is important to make sure the alkaloid is actually in freebase form when extracting. the simplest one step process is to put some ammonia in the acetone ... if (after stirring the herb into it, the pH paper indicates above pH11 then you're doing fine.

I meant to comment on this idea originally, but never got around to it. For ammonia to work in this fashion, it must be a stronger base than the target alkaloid(s). Now concentrated ammonia water has a pH of around 12, which obviously isn't too shabby. But on the the hand, if you had access to a range of concentrated alkaloids, you might be surprised by their pH, too. F'rinstance, methylamine is a stronger base than ammonia.