Looking for a good open-minded doctor

[Coschi]

Hey,

A foaf has a question (written in first person for convenience):

Just some background: i've been experimenting with psychs for some time now, lots of dmt, shrooms, extacy, and muchos lsd usually dosed fairly high. have tried 2ce, 2cb, dxm, plus a few others. A typical night would be a couple of blotters accompanied with md, and at the end we'd smoke a LOT of dope. Basically, i'm very well intune with my psychedelics and don't really hold back.

About two months ago i tried dxm for the first time. I was pretty drunk and also snorted a little md. The night was basically blank (no memory at all) except for a few random scenes. The next night i took 2ce and smoked a few joints. One joint too many (which was never previously an issue) and i had a panic attack, the first ever. I thought i was literally going to die and ended up in the hospital, a pretty fucked experience if i may say so.

After that i was tentative about smoking dope, but still took others. Had no problem dosing extemely high on acid one night and thought i was all cool. Then on another occasion i smoked a joint which triggered another panic attack. Since then i haven't smoked dope at all (about two months) and i haven't had any panic attacks. But recently, i took a 400mic dose of lsd with no tollerance (about a month since taking anything) and at the 8 hour mark had a mild panic attack. I took a sedative and fell asleep. taking oral dmt about two weeks ago, half way through i had a very mild panic attack, didn't take anything and it went away eventually.

Basically, they're getting far more frequent now, to the point of most days i feel that they're there but just really in the background. If i think too much about it i can feel a bigger one building up.

I went to see a doctor today and she didn't know shit, basically took the attitude that she has a degree so she knows best, and they're all 'drugs' allbeit not as 'hard' as heroin. She believes this is the beginning of some kind of psychosis etc.. etc..

Personally i think she doesn't know shit about what's going on and i'd like to talk to someone who has some real experience with psychedelic drug induced bullshit like this, preferably someone who think inline with people like the good SAB community.

Can anyone recommend a doctor i could go see?

[XipeTotec]

spock?

[Amulte]

long term drug use can rewire your brain and theres too much ignorance in the medical community due to lack of study. That in conjunction with uncertainty of the precise action on the brain, makes seeing a GP a pain in the ass. a psychologist and/or psychiatrist are be more knowledgable about psychedelics than your average GP.

from your description im inclined to think that you have worn/burnt out some receptor sites, specifically the 5-HT2a & 5-HT2c sites, possibly others. the 5-HT2 family of sites are believed to be responsible for the hallucnigenic effects/visuals experienced. excessive use of the site wears it out, it also slowly deteriorates with age. the 5-HT2 family of receptor sites are also partially responsible for anxiety, in conjunction with other factors and sites in the brain such as the dopamine, gaba and epinephrine/norepinephrin sites.

basically you may have over agonised the 5-HT2 receptor sites in excess for too long.

i dont know any docs down that way, but you might want to consider talking with a psych of some degree. the psychiatrist will be knowledgable about the brain and psychedelics than a psychologist i imagine.

sorry i cant help much, good luck.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Amulte

[Torsten]

if anxiety is the only problem then maybe try a little GABA before your trips. The other thing I'd recommend is to not combine drugs and to only single dose [as high as you want, but only once]. Anxiety can sometimes be easy to manage, but frequently it will require major lifestyle changes. The sooner you start making the changes the less likely you will get stuck in an anxiety rut.

and to answer your question - no, I have never come across any doc who understands the different causes of anxiety and how they related to recreational drugs [except one in brisi, but he is not publically available as far as I know].

[XipeTotec]

ofcourse... u could always stop taking drugs

[Torsten]

in response to amulte's post: if a target receptor is burnt out then problems usually arise during the peak or even before. The fact that his problems start after the peak indicates that it is an accumulation of catecholamines that the body for some reason doesn't deal with anymore. Could be a compromised GABA system, could be low serotonin levels, etc.

Less drugs will definitely be the first approach to this. And if there is a choice between hallucinogens and PEA's then go for the former. The latter will only cause more damage while the fomer may actuall help to fix the problem. Sadly the intuitive way to deal with this is usually to go for the PEA's as they mask the problem better. The hallucinogens will exacerbate the symptoms and hence most users will shy away from them. But basically, if you can't handle hallucinogens without anxiety then you should DEFINITELY not be taking any PEAs.

[mark80]

I'd say go and see a psychitrist. A psychologist wouldn't know shit (albeit even less than a gp).

You're porbably doing some irreversible damage to your neurons, so see someone asap. Tell the psychitrist that you want your information private or you won't talk to him (and he won't get his 200$). I've talked to a few of the nuerochemists at uni and there pretty good, epsically a psychitrist who spoke of hallucingens.

[apothecary]

I went to see a doctor today and she didn't know shit, basically took the attitude that she has a degree so she knows best, and they're all 'drugs' allbeit not as 'hard' as heroin. She believes this is the beginning of some kind of psychosis etc.. etc..

I would say your doctor is spot on? All the substances you mentioned are drugs and you are fooling yourself if you think you can take them with impunity at such large quantities and not suffer some mental consequences!

Make no mistake, if you continue the path you are on you will indeed end up with some kind of psychosis.

To me it seems you want us to recommend a doctor who will say "nah everything is fine, keep taking whatever you like", but the fact of the matter is that all the doctors you go to see will simply say stop taking recreational drugs (because that is the actual source of the problem!), and maybe then prescribe something for anxiety.

I think you need to adopt a different, and more mature attitude to your drug taking, especially in regards to accepting the consequences of your actions!

Lastly, I really don't recommend ingesting any more sedatives to counteract your problem as in the long term they will most likely exacerbate the problem further.

[Coschi]

firstly,

To me it seems you want us to recommend a doctor who will say "nah everything is fine, keep taking whatever you like"

that would be the obvious assumption, but that's not what i want. All i want is someone i can actually speak to try and figure out what i may have done. I think that if i can understand it, then i can do something about it. I don't want meds, i don't want quick fixes or bandaids, i want to work backwards and figure this out, but I don't think i'm well equipped enough to do it on my own. Yes yes drugs, but you can't tell me that you don't respect the difference between yin drugs like heroin and ice, and yang drugs like mushrooms, dmt, lsd, and mescaline. There is a fundamental difference and those classes of drugs shouldn't ever be mentioned in the same sentence imo. I don't want/need to get into a discussion about this, just saying my bit. Fyi you don't know a thing about my approach to 'drug' taking

ofcourse... u could always stop taking drugs

yes, of course, and then live the rest of my life in avoidance of some self-induced anxiety.

No thanks, like i said i want to figure this out, and i'll do it the hardest way possible if i must

Torsten and Amulte,

If some of these receptors are worn/burnt out, would that be seen as a higher tollerance to psychedelics, and possibly less visual action when these are taken? To be honest, since the last few months i've been extremely sensitive to almost anything i take. Low dose dmt and lsd give significant visuals, and it seems i can trip on beer (even this morning i noticed significant strobing and morphing (breathing)) - i'm not kidding

anxiety is the only issue, so what amount of gaba how long before do you suggest i try?

fyi the sedative taken was a xanax, and i avoid taking anything like this unless as a last resort (three hours of feeling your heart almost jump out of your chest and thinking your going to die is enough). Recently i had a pretty mild one and didn't take anything.

PEA, this would indeed include extacy wouldn't it

What about hypnotherapy or seeing some kind of shaman?

Edited November 2, 2007 by Coschi

[XipeTotec]

ofcourse... u could always stop taking drugs

yes, of course, and then live the rest of my life in avoidance of some self-induced anxiety.

No thanks, like i said i want to figure this out, and i'll do it the hardest way possible if i must

well, that is an odd position to take... we all avoid things that dont work for us... if flying kites, made my eyes bleed, I just wouldnt do it.... also... wouldnt it more likely be drug induced anxiety.

Edited November 2, 2007 by XipeTotec

[rahli]

if flying kites, made my eyes bleed, I just wouldnt do it.

What if it was a great big f**cka and everyone at the beach looked at it and though "Geez I wish that was my kite", might be worth having blood piss out of your eyes then?

Edited November 2, 2007 by rahli

[AndyAmine.]

I would agree with both points that apoth and Torsten made, you could very well be heading for some kind of psychosis and can only suggest that you reduce your consumption of these substances and really appreciate it when you do take them.

One of the things that couldn't hurt and could potentially make a big difference is trying a course of gaba and or tryptophan, I would hazard a guess that the sooner a person gets started with these after casuing the damage the better they will work.

For the times you do take these substances, I think it would also be a good idea to start pre/post-loading with multi-vit's, magnesium etc plus the appropriate amino's if you don't already.

Plus, a quick question, have you noticed any changes in the way these substances effect you?

Less/more visuals, less/more euphoria, harder come-downs?

[XipeTotec]

What if it was a great big f**cka and everyone at the beach looked at it and though "Geez I wish that was my kite", might be worth having blood piss out of your eyes then?

only if it was a stunt kite

[Coschi]

For the times you do take these substances, I think it would also be a good idea to start pre/post-loading with multi-vit's, magnesium etc plus the appropriate amino's if you don't already.

Plus, a quick question, have you noticed any changes in the way these substances effect you?

Less/more visuals, less/more euphoria, harder come-downs?

what do you mean when you say aminos ?

i'll see about some multi-vitamins

i've noticed more visuals, more brightness and strobing with lsd

extacy is pretty much the same

dmt visuals seem to be getting duller (but i suspect this has to do with the leaf it's being smoked with)

i've noticed the last few times with extacy there has been a pretty harsh comedown, but that md seemed to be quite 'dirty' compared to others.

Oral dmt is extremely visual even at low doses (trailing to the extent of a 300mic blotter)

[Amulte]

as visual are still present im now inclined to think the 5-HT2 receptors would most likely be fine.

that in mind, are the anxiety attacks rather intense on the heart? do you/have you taken ssri's or maoi's?

after the new info im now inclined to think excessive serotonin eg serotonin syndrome leading into hypertensive crisis.... but that can easilly be ruled out.... but still potentially likely depending on certain conditions.

id deff go talk with a psychiatrist, as said by many above long term use/abuse of substances can lead into psychosis, and when initiated its a very short trip to the assylum unless you stop doing things that exacerbate the condition.

Deff give the gaba a try, but maybe avoid tryptophan/5htp in this case... high sensitivity to visual effects is a sign of effective serotonin levels, maybe too much infact...

[Fenris]

I would consider a lifestyle change. If you pulled a muscle you would rest the muscle and gradually get it back into working order over a period of time, you wouldn't enter a marathon the week later or that might be the end of your career in cross country running.

If I had a motorcycle accident and tore my liver I wouldn't get on the piss the week after and expect everything to be fine.

This isn't a race and there is no need to jump on the horse straight away, I think you need to consider longer time frames for the healing to occur.

If I had access to spice and maoi I would give up all drink and drugs for a month or two and focus my energies into healing I would go vego for a while and make myself a nice aya brew and go off into the bush somewhere with some insence and bongoes and a sitter, light a small fire and get comfortable for a long night.

If you still want to be able to do this stuff when you are 60+ you want to pace yourself.

[Coschi]

Thanks for the advice fenris, i've been thinking of something similar actually. I also do have faith in isolated high-dose lsd for internal maintenance / repairs but i need to know what i'm targeting before i go in there. I am well acquainted with my symptoms and cause-and-effect relationship but the whole anxiety response still eludes me.

Amulte, definitely the majority of the symptoms are in my heart and circulation. It usually starts with a feeling of warmth / coldness in the heart, then my mind realises what is about to happen and my heart starts palpitating and beating erratically. I don't know the exact link but this then leads to slight numbness and pins and needles, stiff joints and neck, and shortness of breath. The whole thing is fed by its own feedback too so once it starts it's difficult to 'will' it to stop. I originally suspected serotonin syndrome which is why i went to hospital (better safe than sorry), apparently dxm can inhibit MAO to some extent (no confirmation of this) and with the combination of mdma and 2ce i thought i was doomed for sure. I just had full blood test today and will have the results next week, is there anything i could look for to indicate serotonin levels or .. ? I have used MAOIs on perhaps four occasions to allow of oral dmt consumption, but other than that never (no SSRIs either). Do you suggest a daily GABA intake or just pre-psychedelics?

[Amulte]

im not that knowledgable of the gaba systems as of yet, T would deff be able to advise on ideal gaba treatment.

personally id abstain from all substances for at least 6-8 weeks, and see what is happening to my body and mind. clean up system of all substances, and see what happens and go from there. then look at ideal treatments IF any are needed after that point.

i think you may find if you give yourself some recovery, avoid stresses, healthy foods and vitamins/minerals, and in a few months the symptoms will diminish. if they are still present then that is the prefect time to find out exactly the cause and best treatment, also it will be easier to determine the cause.

this the best treatment for you is a clean life for a few months. let your brain re wire the synapses back to their natural state. and deff seek proffessional advice above the GP level too and maybe some extra help or support to help clean up your system.

[foolsbreath]

Take a break mate, don't think about trying a high dose lsd or pre dosing to fix the problem. I have had more than one friend who went hard for longer than anyone 4lse. evrything was cool till they lost it, and guess what. They NEVER came back

Yup fucked for life

Cant even have a reasonable converstaion with them, good friends GONE

Be careful, the warning signs may be there, not saying this will happen to you, but i've seen it happen

Take heed of what your body is telling you

[AndyAmine.]

For gaba dosage, like anything start low and work your way up.

While T' would be more knowledgeable about this, I would suggest a dosage of around 250mg's for a week, see how you feel and then go up another 100mg's every several days until you reach a comfortable level.

The way I have been modulating my dose is via my dreams and level of sedation in the morning. For example, I started off at 500mg's and found I was getting horrible nightmares (although this did dissipate a little after a few days) but as I dropped down 50mg's each few days the dreams got a little less intense until I reached 300mg's. Now my dreams are vivid but not panic inducing.

I asked those questions, as Amulte picked up, to see how your serotonin system is going, I agree, tryptophan could be a bad idea.

I have experienced similar symptoms to what you describe back in my days of heavy usage, I would only have to look at something for more than a few seconds before it would start morphing and warping along with constant trails and such... and as you also mention, only needing very small doses to achive good effect.

It wasn't long after this that I started getting pretty nutty and thinking I could do some pretty strange things, so be careful my friend, it is dangerous territory... I luckily had the chance to go overseas for a year and detox my system.

Anyway, whatever happens or whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck.

Edited November 2, 2007 by AndyAmine.

[Torsten]

without spending some time with you it is hard to say whether your increased visual activity is due to high serotonin or high glutamate. If it is high serotonin then likely from a drug combo. Stay on single drugs!! It is bad enough that we consume things we really have fuck all idea what they do, but to then combine them is just madness [especially when things start to go wrong].

Serotonin syndrome [at the level where you don't need to be hospitalised] only last a few hours, so I don't think your visual stuff on straight days would be related to it.

AS for LSD fixing things, well, nice idea. But it can also cause damage. Like I find shrooms very therapeutic for myself, but not in every stage of my life. Hallucinogens DO also release catecholamines and they can certainly trigger anxiety attacks and chronic states.

I hate the idea of you using GABA just so you can keep tripping. The problem with this is that it is likely that in 6 months time you are at 500mg GABA/day and suddenly your syptom come back. Now you're really fucked cos you've already used up your first line of defence and the next step is benzos.

However, there is no harm in trying it so you know it can help in emergencies. First I'd try it as a rememedy, ie take the GABA as the anxiety starts. If that doesn't work then predose. The dose for GABA varies widely. Ex stim users need about 10 times as much as non-stim users. The dose will lie somewhere between 50mg and 1g. The lower you can cope with the better for you and the more levels of defence you have.

Personally, when my body told me that drugs weren't good for me I stopped for a while. The thing to rememebr is that the worse things get the longer they take to heal [if ever]. I like certain drugs too much to put myself in the position to maybe never be able to take them again. I'd rather take a few years off [like I did for the last few years] so that I can still enjoy them later on. What's the point of going hard for another 3 months if it means you can never experiment again, or if all experiences turn nasty from then on.

[chilli]

Fyi you don't know a thing about my approach to 'drug' taking

Well, except for all the stuff you told us in the first post.

well, that is an odd position to take... we all avoid things that dont work for us... if flying kites, made my eyes bleed, I just wouldnt do it....

That is the funniest thing I have heard today, thank you.

Personally, when my body told me that drugs weren't good for me I stopped for a while. The thing to rememebr is that the worse things get the longer they take to heal [if ever]. I like certain drugs too much to put myself in the position to maybe never be able to take them again. I'd rather take a few years off [like I did for the last few years] so that I can still enjoy them later on. What's the point of going hard for another 3 months if it means you can never experiment again, or if all experiences turn nasty from then on.

I totally second that advice, I hope you take it into consideration Coschi.

Random questions:

What is md? What is a PEA? How do you burn out receptors in your brain? Can we ease up on the GP bagging?

IllegalBrain Strikes Again.

[Torsten]

What is md?

Probably methylenedioxy-something [ie MDMA, MDA, methylone]

What is a PEA?

Phenylethylamine. Everything in PIHKAL.

How do you burn out receptors in your brain?

Usually by having too much of a neurotransmitter around for too long you can either cause temporary damage which amkes the receptor recede [ie pull its head in for a few hours/days/weeks/months], or it can actually kill that receptor. One of the worst offenders appears to be glutamate [causing all sorts of age related illnesses] and one of the best known and most feared is doapmine [resultign in parkinsons].

Can we ease up on the GP bagging?

No, why? I have yet to find a competent one. I am a bit puzzled what they do for 6 years at Uni/intern. It wouldn't be so bad if they at least realsied when they are out of their depth and passed people onto specialists, but no, most think they can handle it.

[Coschi]

My deepest appreciation to you all

it's a fantastic thing to have such a good community at close call

Believe me, everything you've all said has been taken to heart and mind, and it seems i have some thinking to do

If the outcome is that i do back off for a while (i can't say it'll happen, but you should know for me (and most likely you too) self preservation is number one, ALWAYS. I am a stubborn person and likely won't make the break until i am aware that it is what is necessary.. but if that's where this is going then it'll be done)

on that note, any suggestions of what to do with me time?

fyi, extacy seems to have caused absolutely no negative response whatsoever, in fact it has complete cleared it (i know, this is NOT a solution )

Edited November 2, 2007 by Coschi

[incognito]

any suggestions of what to do with me time?

-grow plants

-get fit

-study something ur interested in

-meet some girls.

drugs are not the be all and end all man.

live ur life.

snap out of it.

the end.