How to recognize a peruvianus

[trucha]

If anyone out there still wonders if I am crazy or not...

I was wondering what features can reliably recognize a peruvianus.

[teonanacatl]

hehe, all these type threads are going to the ID subsection. Make them good and Ill pin them <___base_url___>/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png

[Agamemnon]

Generally speaking look for a club or baseball bat shaped plant, with prominent spines in medium, bordering on dense array. These guys are majorly into defence of their bodies!

[trucha]

They also can be quite variable even on a single plant.

Presence of a v-shaped mark is one diagnostic but it is not an exclusive feature and occurs on many plants elsewhere than peruvianus. Including outside of the trichs.

Its lack means its not a peruvianus as seen by Rose but its presence does not mean it is a peruvianus.

Spines always show one or more often two centrals somewhere. Usually 2 are present at least somewhere on the plant. Often one is pointed up and the other downward but they seem capable of doing whatever they want. The Ancash thing can get darn bristly with spines on some areoles or not.

The spines tend to be graded in color, some brown with horn and honey colored rather than entirely brown though. Yellow bands are common too but all tend to fade. New centrals can show up anywhere on the plant seemingly at random.

At least that's how I've seen them occur.

Some otherwise apparently peruvianus plants in one area around Matucana show red and black spines. That population needs study. It is now in cultivation and shows more variability then in the wild so far as spine color. Minerals in the local soil? I don't know but one thing to keep in mind about the Matucana area is it is intensely mineralized and has beau coup copper in the soil including nice crystals of it in the area where the Matucana peruvianus we know and love comes from.

I'll get some pictures of all of these posted at some point.

They all have short flower tubes. Reliably more stubby than any pachanoi.

Matucana plants have lots of black hair on the axils and ovary but typically one can see flesh on both.

Some of those show brown but that (wnd some white) are more common on the new flower buds than the ovary and fruit.

Some sorts other than those do show brown overall but I lack data to know if this is geographically linked or probably just indicates an intermediate as their flower tubes are more elongated and in between pachanoi and peruvianus or else closer to pachanoi.

Overall the flowers are otherwise very similar to pachanoi

A spectrum exists between it and pachanoi. Its pretty arbitrary to try and say how those fit but its probably far more sound to call them pachanoids or peruvianoids or just "intermediates" than short spined peruvianus.

I'm just tossing this out there to get things started.

Comments other than mine are welcomed.

Good will depend on how many people get involved in playing this name game.

Knize recognizes around 60 peruvianus forms mostly due to it being a popular plant name for people to spend money on I would suggest. He claims four flowers is a dose but I know of no one who has that potent of plants in their collections.

Edited August 21, 2007 by trucha

[t st tantra]

someone said 3 pachanoi flowers was a dose.....a friend ate 3 to no effect.....a brew also seemed to have at most short acting effects....i'm sceptical now!

t s t .

[trucha]

Thanks for the report! This is the first I have heard of someone actually trying the flowers of peruvianus.

That assertion of flowers being effective was a Karel Knize claim (I think he said 4 flowers)

I assume the green ovary was included but he did not say.

I personally think that Knize is an unreliable data source whether for taxonomy or his claim of dosing on a few flowers or his claim that 14 ribbed pachanoi are the strongest.

If the flowers (again I would think it would be the green parts not the flowers themselves) are active it sure seems like it would take more than just a few.

I had friends tell me that they had perceptible effects from terscheckii flowers but they used an amount more similar to what they would have used in flesh weight.

Anomalous results in bioassays suggesting really high potency from something or reporting activity from anything new should always be evaluated taking care to screen out anyone who is not what Jim Ketchum called a "negative placebo responder". In other words removing the input from those people who seem to be able to get off on anything.

Its really nice to hear something real rather than speculation. The world needs more skepticism.

Edited September 3, 2007 by trucha

[M S Smith]

My favorite T. peruvianus.

~Michael~

[Teotzlcoatl]

Here's my "Serra Blue" T. peruvianus from S.S.

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd59/teotz/pics110.jpg&key=7d436c0526a1f0a6f82a7eee613b3a94b25ff48bfab451c4675a811724a541fa

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd59/teotz/pics119.jpg&key=76e34a2f4d7070f6e84c19e90cb37b491ca9154142f84bdb6cd07bb93af59109

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd59/teotz/pics109.jpg&key=7d9857ee8ae1ed34c51d515faa934adaeb534d99974bb7347587ed8d6b2abf11

Edited October 30, 2007 by Teotz'

[gromit]

My favorite T. peruvianus.

woah man that's beautiful!

[Teotzlcoatl]

Ya Mr.Smith always has nice cacti

I like mine too, but I've had tons of problems...

First I had to take off the tip...

Then the pup got the same sort of aliment...

I'm rather pissed...

I hope I can save it...

I'd love to see pics of other people's T.peruvianus if anyone has any.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Teotz'

[Gunter]

If anyone out there still wonders if I am crazy or not...

I was wondering what features can reliably recognize a peruvianus.

Hmm, maybe such a feature would be a peruvian newspaper being held up next to a longer spined San Pedro ally?

Part of me wants to go to B&R, part of me thinks Ostolaza. So then there is variation in the epithet such as upright and prostrate, greener verses more grey blue etc. But then how much variation do we allow for an epithet? If a great deal why use multiple epithets for the group at all?

If it were up to me, thank god it ain't eh? I'd want to put into place a novel subgenus of Entheocereus with the epithet of andeansis. Entheocereus andeansis makes as much sense to me as any of the names we kick around. Not that the prefix of entheo is apt but it is well known.

[PD.]

Hmm, maybe such a feature would be a peruvian newspaper being held up next to a longer spined San Pedro ally?

LMAO Archaea, nice one.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Passive Daemon

[M S Smith]

Some T. peruvianus from central Peru.

~Michael~

[Teotzlcoatl]

I love seeing Trichs in their natural habitats...

Thanks for posting.

Is there a thread here about Trichocereus cacti in their natural habitats?

[strangebrew]

Wow, lookie what Santa brought me for Xmas!

Sorry Teotz, it's missing it's authenticity certificate but I'm still very happy with it.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Wow! I think that might be the same clone as mine! It looks almost EXACTLY the same...

Cool!

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd59/teotz/pics119.jpg&key=76e34a2f4d7070f6e84c19e90cb37b491ca9154142f84bdb6cd07bb93af59109

Mine is just alitte bluer, but look at the spines and notching...

What do you think?

I am beginging to think mine is macrogonoid.... look at this thread- here

Peruvianoids look like Mr.Smith's above photo.

Ours look like T. macrogonus, if there is such a thing...

I would like to see more pics of "true" T. peruvianus, if anybody has any...

Edited January 3, 2008 by Teotz'

[Teotzlcoatl]

Cactus- Trichocereus peruvianus/macrogonus

Vendor-Trichocereus Sp. “SS01" obtained from S. S. in Dec. 2007

Location of Origin- ?

Edited June 15, 2009 by Teotz'

[M S Smith]

Here's a photo of a T. peruvianus I got from Bob Smoley quite a few years ago. I found it when I developed some old 35mm film.

~Michael~

[M S Smith]

Here's a plant that not too long ago would have been called T. peruvianus. The plant in the photo is T. cuzcoensis at a "Jardín de cactus y Suculentas de Toledo." I don't suspect that is Toledo, Ohio, but rather Toledo, Spain. But I may be wrong....

http://flickr.com/photos/14599230@N03/2166...57603636045975/

~Michael~

[Teotzlcoatl]

That's a pretty cool looking T. cuzcoensis.

Mr.Smith have ALL T. cuzcoensis been found to be inactive... or just most of them?

[George]

-deleted-

Edited May 6, 2008 by George

[trucha]

How about this for a peruvianus from Matucana?

Photo by my friend Grizzly.

I left the image at 18 inches wide so viewers can zoom in on those new spines.

This tip was cut from a plant growing above Matucana along the same railroad line where Rose mentioned first finding peruvianus.

This population may well be where Knize's most famous versions of KK242 came from. He may have possibly at some point mixed some seeds up with cuzcoensis seeds but this is not one of them. It certainly calls a lot of assorted discussions on Knize's KK242, cuzcoensis and swollen-based yellow spined peruvianoids into a position of needing to be questioned concerning the validity of some of those proposals. Most noteably the idea that plants looking like this are not from Matucana.

It would be interesting to obtain seeds and grow it out to see how the offspring looks.

There are at least a handful of different peruvianus sorts around Matucana.

Some like this are more spiny than the nice fat blue one there and others are less spiny still.

There is also a spiny one with reddish new spines tipped with black.

There are also pachanoi there that are extremely short spined but I posted a photo of one of those in the pachanoi thread. In response to his specific questioning Grizzly was told that there used to be large populations of the pachanoi there that are now gone.

Edited June 3, 2008 by trucha

[trucha]

This tip is also of a peruvianus growing in the same place above Matucana but showing more reddish with darker tips on new growth. I have seen but do not possess photos of adult tips with good detail at the moment. These are really spiny plants.

Way more so than what was also posted just above or the much better known peruvianus growing around Matucana. There is also a stout one that sprawls down cliffs there and in some instances grows near upright shorter spined forms that are at the base of the slopes. It sounds like a trip.

This photo is also by Grizzly. Both images I've posted are copyrighted by him but he gave me permission to post them here.

I am hoping that a nice photo survey of the assorted pachanoi/peruvanus sorts around Matucana is going to be coming out of my friend's recent trip.

While both of these were much more spiny than the beautiful blue peruvianus of IcarosDNA/Los Gentiles some of the short and shorter spined stuff is pretty amazing looking too.

Edited June 4, 2008 by trucha

[Teotzlcoatl]

Mr.Trout I just got a very spiney cutting from S.S. reported to be from Matucana which looks very much like that.

The spines appear to be "Cuzconoid" but it has very blue skin.

I now have three "true" peruvianus clones.

I'll try to post pics soon!

Edited June 5, 2008 by Teotz'

[trucha]

My current suspicion is that plants with that cuzcoensis pr puquiensis or knuthianus look are simply a peruvianoid type that is common across a larger range of Peru than is presently recognized. ALL would become cuzcoensis due to the rules concerning priority if no real means of division is established.

The field work that started this year and will be repeated annually over the course of the next several years should help illuminate the picture over time.

Its interesting that at least several peruvianoids, one very blue, occur near Cuzco also.

There is also the really fat thing Michael has posted pictures of. That one is clearly a mislabel as it is not a cuzcoensis. It seems to have acquired that label simply for the sake of growing near Cuzco.

This is one problem with the naming of species - its easy to assume the field work was rigorous and considered everything in the area whereas the reality often is that a single "snapshot" in the form of one small population seeing collection may have been all that was examined.

Its looking like JUST the area above Matucana could keep a taxonomist busy for quite some time. Or just the area around Huancabamba or Cuzco. Its nuts how little real taxonomic exploration of the assorted peruvianus/pachanoi/cuzcoensis forms has occurred anywhere.

I am gaining a lot more respect or at least sympathy & understanding for the dilemma and numbering/naming practices of Karel Knize concerning the assorted Matucana peruvianus populations after the last few weeks of field reports.

[sturmer88]

Here are a few of my Peruvianus specimens I have just recently rooted.

1, Peruvianus v Ancash

2 Peruvianus v Tarma

3. Peruvianus v Forma Blue

Edited August 10, 2008 by sturmer88