Coschi Posted May 29, 2007 so ergot likes grain eh? it like to grow on rye eh? hmm surely some tek could be devised to cultivate ergot without requiring expensive equipment etc.. etc.. just like standard shroom growing.. if it likes grain, then could it be grown on corn ? or is that called a grain tek for another reason? anyone got some ergot spores eh?? surely it can be done... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ace Posted May 29, 2007 Funnily enough, I was reading up on ergot cultivation just the other night (out of curiousity). You can take a couple ergot 'grains' and plant them in some soil. I believe they are put in a fridge for some months (an indoors-wintering)they are then put in a warmish area and about a month later, sprout what appear to be tiny mushrooms. After about 1 week, the pins will get fat heads on them and they will explode releasing millions of spores. You can supposedly take the mushrooms that are just about to explode and poke them with a needle (or similar) whilst holding them over a jar with some liquid culture stuff and quickly seal the newly dropped spores in the jar. They then germinate and can be poured (as a liquid) into spray bottles to innoculate some fresh rye flowers (though it will need to be timed perfectly - rye flowers only open for about 1 week per year, and after that, the spores will be useless). Slowly, the ergot will consume the rye heads and come late autumn/winter, they will grow 'grains' and the process can be repeated or whatever. I'm sure there'd be some info on the net if one searched enough, but I think this here is pretty much a reliable tek *(from what I've read - I've never even seen ergot in real life). I believe it was from Festers book ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted May 29, 2007 From what I hear it is very difficult to isolate the ergot (in spore or sclerotia form) to any degree where competitors aren't going to take over the substrate medium and ruin your efforts. If it was so easy, everyone would be doing it. Also considering a mostly similar group of LSAs (if not the same, although again it depends on your species of Claviceps) can be obtained by growing Ipomoea and Rivea, with much less effort... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coschi Posted May 29, 2007 yeah i've read a few things around the place, one had a pretty detailed culture medium (erowid ergot vault) but i was thinking what would happen if the spores were just innoculated into say the popcorn tek ?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted May 29, 2007 Nothing, because ergot spores germinate in the nectar surrounding a living ovary of certain grass flowers. I suggest you read 'The Road to Eleusis' on maps.org http://www.maps.org/books/eleusis.pdf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coschi Posted May 29, 2007 Geee totally killing my mood there !!! thanks apothecary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SaBReT00tH Posted May 29, 2007 (edited) isn't ergot deadly/poisonous? (Ergotism went also under the name "St. Anthony's fire" hinting at burning sensations in the limbs[3]. Another effect of ergot alkaloids is vasoconstriction, therefore ergotism may lead to gangrene and loss of the limbs due to limited blood circulation. This may also cause insanity, convulsions, or death, due to limited circulation to the brain. Other symptoms include strong uterine contractions, nausea, seizures, and unconsciousness.) Why would you grow ergot unless you are going to synthesis LSD somehow from it? If so, wouldn't that be a long difficult process? Edited May 29, 2007 by SaBReT00tH Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ace Posted May 29, 2007 (edited) Also considering a mostly similar group of LSAs (if not the same, although again it depends on your species of Claviceps) can be obtained by growing Ipomoea and Rivea, with much less effort... In the book I was reading, they said that for any real purposes, MGs and HBWR's werent anywhere as good as ergot (LSA-wise). They didnt mention Rivea, tho. The method described above seems rather basic, though it would take a fair bit of experimentation, let alone finding some ergot in the wild (which I'd imagine to be rather hard these days, considering that most rye crops have been bred to be anti-fungal). Tho, it did say that there is occasionally patches of ergot infested rye around the edges of a good rye field. Wouldnt get your hopes up tho... isn't ergot deadly/poisonous? You betcha. Tho, because of the goodies it contains it makes it worth looking into. If you dig that sort of thing. Perhaps look up 'St Anthony's Fire', ergotism and lsd for a few more interesting facts about the ergot fungus ;) Edit: Why would you grow ergot unless you are going to synthesis LSD somehow from it? If so, wouldn't that be a long difficult process? As GCF mentioned - it wouldnt be for direct consumtion. I daresay the ergot would be soon shipped off to a lab ;) And yes, it would be a very difficult process, one that most people could not perform - yes sphinx, I'd put you in that category too Not to mention such a thing would be highly illegal. Dont forget that point folks ;) Edited May 29, 2007 by Ace Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SaBReT00tH Posted May 29, 2007 (edited) found some cool stuff whilst looking up ergot. Greek peasants used to make a magical brew from supposed ergot infested Barley and Pennywort, which was called Kykeon and written about in many stories. Other possible theories of ergot use have been rumoured with the women from the Salem witch trials having consumed ergot infested wheat and gone loony (I guess murdering people, lol) Edited May 29, 2007 by SaBReT00tH Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conan Troutman Posted May 29, 2007 (edited) Cold Water Extraction of Claviceps purpurea, The begining of Autumn and the Goddess Visits the grain. http://www.entheogen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8998 Edited May 29, 2007 by Conan Troutman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teonanacatl Posted May 29, 2007 read the book apoth posted, its good and shows that there are two types of ergot or somthing to that regard, and that the nasties are easily separated. There was somone at Edot forums who was using ergot from the fields with all good effects. I actually believe archaea might be right about the LSA's in convolvulaceae not being the actives and that other alkaloids are responsible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coschi Posted May 29, 2007 that's right well here's what i know so far two types: claviceps purpurea claviceps paspali c.purpurea has been attributed to gangrene, no good c.paspali has been attributed to central nervous derangement, still not good but rather that than my gear departing the major alkaloid of c.paspali is paspalic acid which is easily isomerised into lysergic acid just like this http://designer-drug.com/pte/12.162.180.11...c.lysergic.html yes you're totally correct there ace, i have no clue about this and certainly am in no position to begin experimentation, but it is all extremely interested and piecing together hypotheticals is always fun anyway, once you've lysergic acid all you need is diethylamine (which by chance can be made by refluxing topical strength OFF! insect repellant (99% DEET) with NaOH) ----- *apparently* ----- and join this to your lysergic acid with a peptide coupler.. bada bing inert atmosphere is needed - bunnings to the rescue i've got a red light bulb too... hmm hahaha yeah f'n right, theoretical nonetheless, can't argue with that my hawaiian baby woodroses are coming along just fine thanks but there's quite a wait before they're putting out kilos of seeds at a time to yield a couple hundred milligrams of LSAs. sir ergot can pump that shit out for asap fungal enhancement of the mind Ergot cultivation on Erowid: http://www.erowid.org/plants/ergot/ergot_cultivation1.shtml details culture medium preparation all the way to alkaloid extraction Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ENtiTY Posted May 29, 2007 (edited) Hehehe, all you need is diethylamine lol. Yeah making it from DEET is simple enough but seperating and purifying it enough to be used in a reaction is quite another story. Shit looks easy on paper but making it happen is something else. 10 outta 10 for research though Sphinxy baby, where there is a will there is a way Edited May 29, 2007 by Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PD. Posted May 29, 2007 I still havent found it Sina ;) For those of you that are goin to have a search for this lil fella (C. paspali), check Paspalum dilatatum around this time of year. A very common grass (that im aware of) in Victoria and southern NSW, not sure about other areas. and check this out too, very interesting. Claviceps paspali and the Eleusinian kykeon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coschi Posted May 29, 2007 Hehehe, all you need is diethylamine lol. Yeah making it from DEET is simple enough but seperating and purifying it enough to be used in a reaction is quite another story. Shit looks easy on paper but making it happen is something else. Indeed this is the case, i'm just laying down the hypotheticals, if some chipmunk were to actually go try all this stuff there'd probably be a good six months between acquiring all the information and getting any usable results like you said when there's a will there's a way as much as people say it, i really don't think you need a masters in chem to pull this stuff off without a doubt there is access to enough information and expertise on the net for someone to acquire all the 'need to know' type stuff when it comes to stuff like this. extractions are clearly do-able, some people are also getting some mighty pure crystals out of plant/cactus/fungus gunk that i'm sure would rival what a masters chem could do bugger i wanted to show you a photo but can't find it... anyway these were some top mesc crystals you see my point i'm sure now i'm 99% there's no way this lifetime that a certain chipmunk will be going ahead with this, but, if all steps can be looked at, and the details nutted out (such as isolating DEA from whatever solution it is in) i'm sure a pretty fair tek could be devised soooo.. step 1: cultivating c.paspali passive, good work on that grass Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted May 29, 2007 Indeed this is the case, i'm just laying down the hypotheticals, if some chipmunk were to actually go try all this stuff there'd probably be a good six months between acquiring all the information and getting any usable resultslike you said when there's a will there's a way as much as people say it, i really don't think you need a masters in chem to pull this stuff off without a doubt there is access to enough information and expertise on the net for someone to acquire all the 'need to know' type stuff when it comes to stuff like this. extractions are clearly do-able, some people are also getting some mighty pure crystals out of plant/cactus/fungus gunk that i'm sure would rival what a masters chem could do bugger i wanted to show you a photo but can't find it... anyway these were some top mesc crystals you see my point i'm sure now i'm 99% there's no way this lifetime that a certain chipmunk will be going ahead with this, but, if all steps can be looked at, and the details nutted out (such as isolating DEA from whatever solution it is in) i'm sure a pretty fair tek could be devised soooo.. step 1: cultivating c.paspali passive, good work on that grass While I admire your faith in kitchen chemistry, it's simply misinformation to say lots of experience in organic chem is unnecessary, and even worse to compare LSD synthesis to an A/B extraction. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teonanacatl Posted May 29, 2007 LOL I dont doubt that anyone can get as pure compounds as a masters in chem, recrystallisation is taught in first year so its not rocket science:) That said Ive only reacrystallised one natural product during my work sofar, most of them come pure off the column or are run on a prep HPLC column, you would struggle to get that sort of purity from a recrystallisation. Most of the time I dont have enough compound to warrent recrystallisation. Yes anyone can follow a recipe but that doesnt mean they know whats happening or what to do if somthing doesnt happen. Plus the teks you read telling you how to do this were probably written by masters, phd's, postgrad chemists and most of the time were pinched from the literature. if youve got balls you might go read rd to elusis(spelling?) and see what hoffman suggested about how they would separate the goodies from the baddies with only water, then try it lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coschi Posted May 29, 2007 thought i'd get a reaction from that one While I admire your faith in kitchen chemistry, it's simply misinformation to say lots of experience in organic chem is unnecessary, and even worse to compare LSD synthesis to an A/B extraction. apothecary, indeed you're entirely correct. I 100% agree that experience in what you're doing is key to any chance at success, understanding also is a big contributor especially if things go wrong but experience is where it's at, and that experience can be had without sitting through 6 years of uni hehe yeah lsd synth is way way WAAAAAAY off an ab extraction, but if you have a look at the nook you may be surprised at some stuff, there are a few pioneers there, two teamed up and got down to some ultra ultra pure mesc crystals which were recrystalised with MEK and water (bugger why can't i find that pic) yeah not exactly lsd synth but then at wetdreams.ws there's plenty of mdma synths going on, full pdf teks, this goes quite far past a print'n'cook extraction... anyway, my whole point is that i think with enough determination and experience (fail fail fail fail fail fail ... ....... pass) someday a person in even my position could succeed at lsd synth teo, no comment i don't doubt for a second 'im at least 40% talking shit, but that other 60% there has substance, a solid foundation, i have a mind dammit and it's way too clean these days argh f'n fools hahaha i still think it can be done i'll pass on all the well wishes to my chipmunk and if you guys are still around in five years maybe he'll come back with some happy snaps, not likely though he couldn't even reach the bench lil' fella Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teonanacatl Posted May 29, 2007 Lol i really wouldnt call any of the chemistry being done at the nook ground breaking, its all been done before. Experience can be had outside of uni yes but I just think, you could complete a degree in organic chemistry with honours in 4 years and have an amazing amount more experience and knowledge then you would get otherwise. Most universities in australia have 2 first year chemistries, these form the foundation then most have 2nd and 3rd year organic classes, thats only 4 subjects lol you could do that in under a year, if you can manage to go up a year only doing one subject lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entheo Posted May 31, 2007 that's rightwell here's what i know so far two types: claviceps purpurea claviceps paspali c.purpurea has been attributed to gangrene, no good c.paspali has been attributed to central nervous derangement, still not good but rather that than my gear departing here is a list of Ergot species in Australia (from an unpublished paper from long ago) Ergots in Australia Host Genera Claviceps *africana Sorghum spp. annulata Eulalia fulva glabra Digitaria spp. hirtella Eriochloa and Urochloa spp. inconspicua Hyparrhenia filipiendula *maximensis Panicum spp. nigricans Eleocharis spp. *paspali Paspalum spp. phararidis Dactylis, Danthonia, Lolium, Phalaris and Vulpia spp. platytricha Ischaeumum australe purpurea Many species in at least 80 pooid genera including Agropyron, Agrostis, Ammophila, Avena, Austrofestuca, Bromus, Dactylis, Danthonia, Dichelachne, Distichlis, Echinopogon, Elymus, Eragrostis, Festuca, Holcus, Hordeum, Lolium, Microlaena, Phalaris, Phleum, Phragmites, Poa, Polypogon, Secale, Triticum, Vulpia, plus the panicoid species Pennisetum pusilla Bothriochloa, Capillipedium, Chrysopogon, Cymbopogon, Dichanthium, Heeteropogon, Hyparrhenia, Sorghum, Themeda, Vetiveria queenslandicum Paspalum scrobiculatum And there is another table of all the active ergot species in the world (about 11 ergots and several other members of that family as well), but no native species in Australia has been tested (apart from purpurea which is found everywhere). So Claviceps africana contains traces of the alkaloids elymoclavine and agroclavine as well as several other clavine alkaloids. Does that answer your questions? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coschi Posted May 31, 2007 Does that answer your questions? Not whatsoever, but thanks very much for the info, good to know they're around Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted May 31, 2007 Cold Water Extraction of Claviceps purpurea, The begining of Autumn and the Goddess Visits the grain.http://www.entheogen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8998 i really like this report..........read it if you havent! cold water ext for lsa's! t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coschi Posted May 31, 2007 Thanks tst There's quite a few threads about LSAs from MG over at the nook, tregar i think or it could have been someone else devised a nice little tek which includes a defat step using olive oil for a cwe giving nice visuals with no ill effects this edot report was also pointed out there it's a little crazy to load yourself up on ergot though isn't it ??? perhaps this guy was real lucky and got just the right strain of c.paspali consisting of no ergotism related toxins a foaf once did 10 HBWR standard (crush, cwe for 30 mins, pour off and drink) pretty major body loading for the first hour, no nausea, to be followed by one of the most intense trips.. as far as intensity goes it was easily comparable to multidose acid later he did a polar/non-polar extraction (shellite/acetone) of the LSAs from around 100 seeds (not very fresh), ultimately yielded about 200mg of a brown powder (dried with heat which probably significantly modified the alkaloidal makeup of the extract). anyway galcapped 100mg and bombed, once again and extremely intense trip was had, 100% comparable to the first time with typical tryptamine shiny thing (like when on shrooms everything is nicely colorful and shiny) and no body load, thought that was an interesting experiment but have never been able to get fresh seeds since so can't really experiment all that much further atm ! anyway that's pretty unrelated so what if one could acquire seeds of Argentine Bahiagrass infected with c.paspali.. how would one proceed to cultivate the fungus from this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paradox Posted June 3, 2007 For those of you that are goin to have a search for this lil fella (C. paspali), check Paspalum dilatatum around this time of year. A very common grass (that im aware of) in Victoria and southern NSW, not sure about other areas. paspalum grows everywhere around where i live & i've often seen them with black, very ergot-like fungus, which really made me wonder. if Claviseps paspali is often found on paspalum, then thats almost certainly what i've seen. very interesting indeed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted June 3, 2007 I am pretty sure the black stuff is actually a competitor to the Claviceps, and you cannot make use of any sclerotia that has been infected with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites