Freakin Out and Flashbacks

[Ace]

I was reading a trip report online ages ago as follows:

A friend of mine had a mushie trip a while back where he was hit very hard psychologically. It was a pretty negative voyage from start to finish, and he has since been to paranoid about it to go back for another. He has also been steering clear of trying other things due to the experience.

It played out something like as follows (or so he was saying):

He was sitting watching a movie (kids movie to make it more enjoyable and humourous) when all of a sudden they kicked in. His peripheral vision was flashing with white light and his head just started to flood with paranoid thoughts that wouldnt go away. He got up and sat in the bathroom and tried to think clearly to gain control over the mushies. Things werent getting any easier, if anything, the thoughts were slowly increasing. So he tried to puke up the shrooms to prevent a drawn out negative experience. No luck in bringing them back up, so he layed down on the cool floor of the bathroom in the semi dark and streched out in a 'comfortable' position. This aided him quite a bit, and his g/f who was straight managed to keep him calm by talking about pleasant things. Any time she brought up something that wasnt 'pleasant', he would lapse back into the paranoid state and his mind would become flooded with scared feelings and thoughts that reminded him of child hood, even tho he had never experienced anything this scary. Eventually he went back to bed, put a radio on and drifted between sleep and awakening for the rest of the night. In total, he was tripping from about 9pm to about 4 or 5am, waking up at random intervals throughout the night and finding it very uneasy to sleep until it finally worn off.

I think he said the dose was 2gms, but with about 1gm of aborts in that amount.

He was telling me this after a bit of a 'flash back' the other day where he started getting the 'flood of paranoia' thinking about the initial wave of experience. Even in the flashback, he was unable to control his thoughts for a few seconds (about 10 secs), and this really worried him.

Is it just me, or is it a regular occurance to yawn and strech out your chest and body a LOT while shrooming?

~~~~

My questions on the report:

Any idea what he should do to prevent futher flashbacks? He said if he thinks about the trip, he gets the flooding, though not as much as his first flashback. Any idea when/if this will stop over time?

If he was to ever go back for another voyage with mushrooms or otherwise, does anyone have any recommendations for how to prevent a bad trip? Perhaps a lower dose? Perhaps a better set and setting?

[auto]

If he was to ever go back for another voyage with mushrooms or otherwise, does anyone have any recommendations for how to prevent a bad trip? Perhaps a lower dose? Perhaps a better set and setting?

I could spontaneously break into glossalia (speaking in tongues) for about a week after my epic mushroom experience, but it faded over time. Scary as hell - knowing whats lurking just beneath the surface.

Edited April 10, 2007 by auto

[Ace]

Ever think these substances are banned for a reason? Damn, thats scary as hell - did it put you off them, or were you able to go back?

What was going thru your mind when you had these glossalia episodes?

[chilli]

Any idea what he should do to prevent futher flashbacks? He said if he thinks about the trip, he gets the flooding, though not as much as his first flashback. Any idea when/if this will stop over time?

Your description sounded more like an anxiety attack than an actual flashback. One way to prevent it would be to stop taking mushrooms. Some people do this because for them the effects are so unpredictable.

If he was to ever go back for another voyage with mushrooms or otherwise, does anyone have any recommendations for how to prevent a bad trip? Perhaps a lower dose? Perhaps a better set and setting?

I think watching TV is probably a bad idea, especially during the come up. I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me, but I would say that for some people, especially those prone to anxiety and depression, psychedelics can do more harm than good.

Edited October 17, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[chilli]

I could spontaneously break into glossalia (speaking in tongues) for about a week after my epic mushroom experience, but it faded over time. Scary as hell - knowing whats lurking just beneath the surface.

I'm interested... would you mind describing this situation in a little more detail auto?

[ThunderIdeal]

yes to yawning.

i guess the number of g doesn't really mean anything but maybe less next time or try spreading it out rather than all at once. considering how LONG the experience lasted, it sounds like he had a giant dose.

maybe he should try working on his paranoia first though, you know, find out what he's paranoid about and put his mind at ease a bit.

[Aya]

My questions on the report:

Any idea what he should do to prevent futher flashbacks? He said if he thinks about the trip, he gets the flooding, though not as much as his first flashback. Any idea when/if this will stop over time?

If he was to ever go back for another voyage with mushrooms or otherwise, does anyone have any recommendations for how to prevent a bad trip? Perhaps a lower dose? Perhaps a better set and setting?

I think the first thing he would need to do is gradually at his own pace try and come to terms with the negative connotations associated with his experience, by consciously thinking and/or talking about it. This might shed light on something, but at the very least and most importantly it will make the experience common ground and not a fearful repressed thought in his mind. Which if stays repressed, could lead to a complex.

Obviously this experience had a big effect on him, but to supress what happened in fear of having a flooding of negative thoughts, is not a good thing. It will only compound the negative thoughts and associations from the experience. Time will help the situation, but time and reflection together would be the best way to work with it.

In regards to attempting another journey. I wouldn't recommend it until he's dealt and feels comfortable with what happened in the first experience, or at the very least until he's not afraid of the possibility of it happening again.

Hope this helps

Aya

[Conan Troutman]

No good man, sounds like some sort of panic attack, only flashbacks I get are big stupid grins

A decent ol hit of shrooms is always gonna be heaven and hell, make the most of the good and take the bad as a learning experience, you will find they will balance themselves out in the end.

No two trips are ever gonna be the same...remember set and setting, jump back on that horse

PEACE

[transDiMenTional]

Psychedelics were never meant to be easy and the reason they are so benificial IME is because they put you face to face with your fears. I suggest that this person should do as aya said and talk thru the experience and the thoughts that it provoked. Taking tiny doses of the mushroom can help put him in touch with the experience again in order to work thru it. Running away from it or supressing it is not the way to go. You wanted the power/wisdom of the mushroom so now you have it! Dont fear, confront.

In the course of my life i have had some VERY challenging trips and esp with mushrooms. For putting one in touch with theyre own mortality and the instictual fear that comes along with that, mushrooms are surely the way to go. lol

This can be a good thing or a bad thing soley dependant on how you want to look at it. Mushrooms taught (scared?) me to eat better, excercise and to be better to the people around me. Certainly a powerful and sometimes harsh teacher!

best wishes

[Ace]

Some great replies so far - and some rather interesting points too!

sounded more like an anxiety attack than an actual flashback

I think this is what he was describing (from what I read ), but it was so similar to the feelings that he would class it as a flashback - but has never tried anything else that would give such a thing, hence no comparisons... If it was an anxiety attack, is there a few simple steps that can help overcome one of these in the future. I think I read that he has never felt such anxiety before, and that although it felt somewhat reminiscent of childhood memories, this was far more intense than anything before...

Watching TV is almost always a bad idea

I have also heard this, but it seemed like a fairly safe idea at the time (so I read), so he went ahead anyway - perhaps that could have affected the trip? I think it said that he turned the TV off as soon as he realised the trip was hitting because it seemed to make things even worse, but it was hard to tell if it was the TV or the peaking...

for some people, especially those prone to anxiety and depression, psychedelics can do more harm than good.

Very valid point - I could certainly agree with you there, but in this case, the subject had stated that he was completely stable mentally, and that he had never experienced depression, anxiety or other mental disorders. Perhaps the experience just triggered something in his brain that led him to feel and comprehend a full fledged panic/anxiety attack? Would this triggering be permanent, or do you think this will fade over time and he wont experience 'flashbacks'?

considering how LONG the experience lasted, it sounds like he had a giant dose

In the past, he has written that he has only done 2gm doses before on 2 seperate occasions, with no problems. i think the use of abhorts would have come into the equation - I can only put this down as being the culprit for such a nasty ride...

maybe he should try working on his paranoia first though, you know, find out what he's paranoid about and put his mind at ease a bit.

I dont think he actually had any fears or paranoia about anything, other than the unknown. Being that he didnt seem to be an experienced voyager, this, I could imagine, would have been a rather large fear. In previous voyages, he had only seen geometric patterns, aztec images in walls and floors and breathing walls, but all with clear mindedness. His motor abilities and mental clarity were still at normal levels, it was only visual distortions that were in the previous voyages. I can only put it down to the Fear of the Unknown.

consciously thinking and/or talking about it

Sounds like good advice - at this point, it appears that he only really talks about it online, and that he tries not to think about it too often, but when he does, the thoughts start flooding again. But it appears that they arent as bad as they were when they first 'flashed back', so perhaps they are starting to clear themselves up? He was saying that when he starts thinking about it, he tries to work at it in his head while the paranoia tries to lead his away from it - perhaps there is something behind the curtain of paranoia? He will try to work at opening the curtains by thinking thu it over time.

This might shed light on something, but at the very least and most importantly it will make the experience common ground and not a fearful repressed thought in his mind. Which if stays repressed, could lead to a complex.

This appears to be another fear - having a permanent scar on his thoughts - whenever thinking about the trip, starting to trip. So you think that thinking/talking it over and trying to blow the mist away will help prevent such a complex?

Time will help the situation, but time and reflection together would be the best way to work with it.

This is what I would have hoped for - I will try and let him know somehow - thanks for the great advice here!

In regards to attempting another journey. I wouldn't recommend it until he's dealt and feels comfortable with what happened in the first experience, or at the very least until he's not afraid of the possibility of it happening again.

I think that is where his mind is at atm - wait until the problem is solved before jumping back on the horse - it could make things even worse if he were to go straight back trying to let the substance sort out the problems for him.

Thanks everyone - helped myself out a lot and probably a few others in the community - I will try to message him with your words of wisdom.

Any other opinions?

[Fenris]

Time is a great healer. It may take years or months to get back to a place that is acceptable.

Yoga, meditation good health and try not to hold on to the things that aggrivate.

Respect the mushroom and respect yourself and try and learn something from the experience, accept the teaching.

Thats my advice.

[auto]

Ever think these substances are banned for a reason? Damn, thats scary as hell - did it put you off them, or were you able to go back?

What was going thru your mind when you had these glossalia episodes?

I think that's exactly the reason they're banned, though I would have prefered the opportunity to learn that for myself - legally. It put me off them as a recreational item. I have been back once, and though it was easily as mad, knowing what to expect and having my wife sober to talk to during the really intense section (t+1-3 hours) helped alot. I found the heart in my mouth paranoia re-surfaced from time to time, but faded with time.

The glossalia was strange. In flashback, it was like flicking a perceptual switch that would let me "speak" it with my inner voice, like a clickety-pop-zwang-a-loo. That sounds psily, but it feels hard-wired, part of your deep-language-function, as if you're hearing the mechanism behind the words and grammar. Like all things mushroom, it's very difficult to put in words.

I had a similar experience years earlier with a huge bucket-bong. My inner voice split five-ways, all me at different ages, speaking over each other at once, and the youngest - maybe 3 or 4 years old - spoke a strange "invented" language that I remembered, like in a deja vu.

[auto]

I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me, but I would say that for some people, especially those prone to anxiety and depression, psychedelics can do more harm than good.

My experience with psychedelics has led me to much the same conclusion. Trips are indelible - in that you cannot erase them. Sometimes, I sense I have been permanently reconfigured, like that epic trip reset my state-machine, and when it surfaces, I fall cold and vulnerable.

I'm not clinically depressive, or anxious, but am a very "thinky" person - and I don't think psychedlics are good for "thinky" people.

Edited April 10, 2007 by auto

[paradox]

I dont think he actually had any fears or paranoia about anything, other than the unknown.

if nothing else, mushrooms are certain to thrust you deep into the unknown and even the unknowable!

when our puny ego's (we all have one ) are confronted with infinity, it's an indescribably terrifying experience for our sense of self, which is utterly obliterated in the face of the infinite truth.

my FOAF has found that seriously practicing certain meditation techniques has helped him enormously, to stay equanimous, no matter he experiences during a trip. it has helped him to deeply realise that everything is transitory and that every experience we have is just a passing phenomenon. this enables him to observe his terror and watch it pass away.

with the childhood experience thing your FOAF was talking about, my FOAF can only give his experience and thoughts about it:

my FOAF feels that when you are a baby you are completely in contact with the utterly infinite enigma of the universe. a baby has not developed it's ego yet and has not cut itself off from the truth.

as we get older we learn to create our sense of self and all the illusions which go with it. this enables us to exist in the 3d world and to go about our business without being overwhelmed by the utterly infinite, fractalating soup of energy which is the universe and ultimately is what we are.

when we are older and our illusions and ego are thoroughly ingrained in us, we decide to eat some mushrooms or some such psychedelic substance. this thrusts us out of our illusions and back into direct perception of the fractalating energy soup. this perception seems somehow familiar to us as this was our experience of life as i baby, but our ego's and our ideas about the world are so ingrained in us and so comforting to us that our ego feels very threatened by this, as it's entire existence relies on these illusions. the ego becomes utterly horrified by the fact that it in fact does not exist, hense the paranoia and terror, with a strange sense of chilhood memories.

i don't know if this relates to your FOAF. just some idea's

[Ace]

I have just read this in another thread 'My Broken Brain':

Spaced:"he says more or less that if you do have a bummer trip you should get back on your horse again and go deeper than you went initially to get beyond the trauma that froze your last session."

I know of a gnome who used to eat bikkies lots and when he stopped he did it because he felt robbed after each experience towards the end of his use.He thought his brain was mushed and was a bit FU for a while until I said to him "go back and shut the gate man!" "You have to" "or it'll steal your life away".

He did and thanked me for the advice and since left all the associated baggage behind.

Though he may need to go back through areas of his past now rather than shut the doors he left open himself

Does anyone recommend jumping back on the horse to help shut the gate on the unwanted memories? Or is time the best healer?

Brains rarely play up - the problem is more likely to be with the software than the hardware.

Another great quote - perhaps its time to delete the software to help keep the hardware in optimal working condition?

I had a similar experience years earlier with a huge bucket-bong. My inner voice split five-ways, all me at different ages, speaking over each other at once, and the youngest - maybe 3 or 4 years old - spoke a strange "invented" language that I remembered, like in a deja vu.

That is a very well written explanation - if only we could all put such an experience into such easy to understand text

I don't think psychedlics are good for "thinky" people.

I think the guy who wrote the initial post was a thinky person too - perhaps that was another factor that came into play...?

The glossalia was strange. In flashback, it was like flicking a perceptual switch that would let me "speak" it with my inner voice, like a clickety-pop-zwang-a-loo. That sounds psily, but it feels hard-wired, part of your deep-language-function, as if you're hearing the mechanism behind the words and grammar. Like all things mushroom, it's very difficult to put in words.

Man, that is some weird shit right there - were you concious at the time? I mean, did you still have regular functioning, or was it trance like?

A very well put explanation paradox - I have heard such things before, and the more I learn about these things, the more I can agree with that idea... It'd be interesting to see what actually happens when the shutters are opened - something that can be seen with these substances, but one needs a very stable mind to be able to accept the world beyond...

[gerbil]

This in all sincerity is not meant to cause offence...and I'd like to have gone deeper but don't really have the energy to get into a larger discussion that would definitely have ensued after controversial statements, so this isn't overly well articulated and is even harder to translate from visual to verbal language.

Personally I think it was an abuse of the mushroom and the situation that arose was a direct consequence of that. (That's not to say well guided use can't end up in similar situations, but we're not really talking that, more so just this specific situation)

What was the point of the experience? From how it reads it was an attempt at recreational use for a fun entertaining time.

quote He was sitting watching a movie (kids movie to make it more enjoyable and humourous) when all of a sudden they kicked in.

To me, this clearly communicates that mental preparation was severely lacking and with the potential that these plants are capable of, it's quite dangerous in all seriousness.

Sure, recreational use of the mushroom can work out to be beneficial and if people want to pursue this path good for them, but I find it puzzling that people aren't actually acknowledging within themselves what these plants are capable of and then get all confused when the substance kicks their arse when all they wanted was a euphoric time with pretty visuals, do people realise these are serious tools that alter consciousness in incredibly drastic ways? If people want recreation well that's their choice, but don't complain/blame substance y when it causes some severe issues either at the specific time or into the future, these are serious mind altering plants, I don't know how many times that needs to be stressed.

IMO the 'flashback' effects can be present for life, but can vary in intensity. AFOAF can bring about similar states of consciousness in waking life years after the experience in a partially controlled manner, yet that's also attributed to attempting to practice/strengthen the mind in a sober state at any given time (i.e. constantly).

afoaf feels quite sad when people will utilise these plants more so in a recreational manner than in an isolated deep self discovery manner, he says this because he feels the potentials are being well undershot and we humans are cheating ourselves with our potentials, this is especially strengthened when the thought of the shortness of life comes about.

But as said this isn't meant to cause offence and are probably just my ideals, but at the same time I think about such issues constantly and base my viewpoints off constant self scrutiny over my entire life, I acknowledge some people will see it as dictating how to use a substance, but to me this is incredibly serious ground and calls for serious self measures to be implemented.

[Ace]

I too agree Gerbil - this does look to have been abuse of the mushroom - even though the voyager probably didnt intend for it to be (I think he was planning to spend the rest of the journey in the darkened room experiencing visuals and some introspective thoughts - the movie was just to aid him in creating a child like thought pattern - possibly an experiment that went pear shaped...).

I think he will try again later down the track for a much more spiritual jouney - probably in a more natural environment with a better frame of mind. That and a lower dosage I think - at least to clear up the negative memories and hopefully 'shut the gate'.

It was a very valid and a well put point of view, and I certainly dont take any offence, and neither should anyone in such a situation.

[ThunderIdeal]

i agree

[chilli]

If it was an anxiety attack, is there a few simple steps that can help overcome one of these in the future.

Anxiety is something you learn to deal with over time, there is not really a simple solution, but there are some things you can do when you start to feel extremely anxious. Perhaps the easiest and most effective is to talk to yourself, either mentally or verbally (maybe mentally if you are in public). You need to constantly combat the 'flood' of irrational thoughts and feelings with rational ones. Remind yourself that it will pass, and that you are actually okay. This is why it takes time, because the first time you try it the feelings of panic may seem more real than the thoughts you are telling yourself. After it passes though, you will realize that what you were saying was true and next time it will be a little easier. Something else that helps is to occupy yourself with work... clean the house, make some music, write something, anything that requires focus and attention. By the way, the flood of intense thoughts is a typical panic symptom, and is nothing to worry about, you're not going crazy or anything. Probably the reason you associate it with the trip is that that may be the first time you felt that sheer panic.

...he was completely stable mentally, and that he had never experienced depression, anxiety or other mental disorders. Perhaps the experience just triggered something in his brain that led him to feel and comprehend a full fledged panic/anxiety attack? Would this triggering be permanent, or do you think this will fade over time and he wont experience 'flashbacks'?

People can develop depression and anxiety at any age, and there is not always an obvious trigger. It is not always permanent, and approximately 25% of people will experience depression or anxiety at some stage, its is quite normal.

In the past, he has written that he has only done 2gm doses before on 2 seperate occasions, with no problems. i think the use of abhorts would have come into the equation - I can only put this down as being the culprit for such a nasty ride...

Not necessarily, mushrooms are particularly unpredictable.

Edited October 17, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[chilli]

Does anyone recommend jumping back on the horse to help shut the gate on the unwanted memories? Or is time the best healer?

My personal advice would be to wait, the mushrooms themselves will not solve anything. At best they may act as tools, but it is your mind that will do the work.

[Ace]

Thanks for your reassuring posts illegal brain No doubt there are a few comforted people out there

By the way, the flood of intense thoughts is a typical panic symptom, and is nothing to worry about, you're not going crazy or anything. Probably the reason you associate it with the trip is that that may be the first time you felt that sheer panic.

Couldnt have said it better myself - anyone disagree with this statement?

[Benzito]

I've heard a similar story from a friend.

The first time he tried mushrooms he took 2gm of Subs, staggered over 1.5 hours.

He sat and watched TV while he waited for it to happen. He kind of approached it as if he was going to get stoned or something and it would just be a night of normal activities, while tripping.

That was his mistake. The casual approach.

The next 6 hours were spent curled in the foetal position, being bombarded by fearful thoughts, things he had been putting off, things he had wanted to fix in his life, etc.

It was a painful, horrible trip. But he says he still took some good out of the trip, and he did manage to correct those things in his life he had been meaning to, but putting off.

He says he has approached every other new drug with alot of respect, and doesn't know why he thought he could approach shrooms so casually, but it was definitely his undoing.

No flashbacks like you describe, but he says he hasn't been back to the Shrooms yet, and that was over a year ago. He has been scared by them, that's for sure.

[Aya]

This might shed light on something, but at the very least and most importantly it will make the experience common ground and not a fearful repressed thought in his mind. Which if stays repressed, could lead to a complex.

This appears to be another fear - having a permanent scar on his thoughts - whenever thinking about the trip, starting to trip. So you think that thinking/talking it over and trying to blow the mist away will help prevent such a complex?

Definately. By thinking about it and expressing it wont become a taboo thought rife with negative associations. Think of a complex as a sudden psychological cut, if you dont mend to it, it will become infected and worse. But if you treat it calmly and

properly, you'll make a full recovery.

Normally the fear in regards to these kind of situations isn't really connected to the thoughts that come when the memory/flashback happens, but the experience and feeling of the flashback/memory itself. The uncontrollability of it, the fright and helplessness. So if you consciously think about or talk about this situation your making that feeling and experience a known thing to your mind, something common place. And in doing so with time it will lose it's weight and frightfulness, and you'll be able to remain calm and simply watch the memory/flashback pass. And over a long enough amount of time, they might cease to happen.

Aya

[auto]

To me, this clearly communicates that mental preparation was severely lacking and with the potential that these plants are capable of, it's quite dangerous in all seriousness.

I think many, myself included, begin with a notion of "fun exploration", which is annihalated by your first experience of the inneffable fractalating soup. If we go back, its no longer for fun.

[DocAzz]

I'll keep this quick, most of what I feel has already been covered.

I view flashbacks purely as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. War veterans claim to relive moments of terror on the battlefield, and can hear gunfire when they are going to sleep. Why is that any different from a traumatic trip? One happened in a warzone, and the other happened in your house, but they both overwhelmed the mind with terror.

Does this make sense?

In terms of dealing with it, my views have already been covered. Time + Discussion.

Does anyone have experience using Ketamine to help out? It seems to have amazing results with depression.