women in veils and headcoverings

[Torsten]

oh yeah, and if anyone was in doubt about his intentions, here is his latest PM:

So an admission of defeat ? Albeit privatly. I'm happy that it's happened on MY terms, and not yours.

As an aside, should you choose to maintain this suspension of my userid, the consideration shall be that YOU have thrown the first punch. This is what I await on each occasion in real life, so why should this be any different ?

Game on, honey. Brace yourself.

GO.

[ajna]

THANK YOU Tort, great move imo, give him what he wants. i have become utterly sick of reading GO's provocations at SAB, he has somewhere else he can contribute constructively to ethnobotany now, if he actually has any interest in doing so.

[XipeTotec]

As for anyone else who thinks they can use this place as a dumping ground or troll heaven, be warned. I am not very patient at the moment. And no, I don't mean you shroomytonos. You might give me the shits on a regular basis, but that's not what this is about.

thanks!!

Edited March 24, 2007 by shroomytoonos

[Conan Troutman]

"If you choose to swing the axe and decapitate my presence at SAB, I cannot stop you. However even the most hardened of henchmen can never be disaffected by the blood on their hands."

...OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!

[KlUe]

"If you choose to swing the axe and decapitate my presence at SAB, I cannot stop you. However even the most hardened of henchmen can never be disaffected by the blood on their hands."

...OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!

Since primarily whatever is posted from GO is just trying to stir sh*t ... agreed

[marsha]

 

 

[Auxin]

I'm so gonna go to samsara for that

[occidentalis]

Stick to the kittens, Auxin ;)

[marsha]

they all got glasses? lol wtf

[The Dude]

they all got glasses? lol wtf

Meditation causes blindness, seriously limited muscle use causes atrophication, and they're always off in wonderland they don't even use their real eyes anymore.. so they need glasses, now THAT was racist.. well religionist...

The whole veil thing is great! It's what's NOT SEEN, what's implied, what's left to the imagination that makes these images erotic. Now don't get me started with Beautiful Nudes and Erotica and Porn, it's all the same thing to a greater/lesser degree, all of them create a twitch in the pants to a greater/lesser degree.

Erotica that leaves room for the imagination and isn't explicit hardcore porn. I dig it and see nothing wrong with posting Nudes that may be considered 'erotic' I guess penetration of any sort is the crossing line to porn.

I like Bill Hicks's joke re: porn .. paraphrase: "the dictionary meaning of pornography: "nudity or sexually suggestive material with no artistic merit" - every single advertisement on tv"

Really most everything is meant to be sexy or somehow trigger that primal response in us, so that most of our marketing is essentially porn.

Maybe I'm just a perv but those photos were beautiful and capturing beauty is art - that includes artfully done porn :D

wtf was that bullshit about sexism and racism, seems somebody is projecting their own shit into this as there was no derogatory remarks.. it was directly as stated within the topic "women in veils and headcoverings" with no comment added, just the images.

Any Racism that was implied or obviously meant to be there was a total fabrication of the individual reading it and projecting their assumptions. If merely showing women of this ethnicity is contra-islam.. moslems should not visit this site if they feel it will break part of their moral code, the remainder of non-believers are free to make up their own mind. I wonder how many nuns are up in arms when they hear of the new porno featuring nuns - APPARENTLY a common fetish, I wouldn't know. There is a fetish for that which is hard to get such as nuns or women in less than revealing clothing which seem a greater challenge. The Veiling is to add excitement and mystery, hide to later reveal.

Hey Yowie, I've got to see this photo in question that everyone was bitching about, I can't believe you got 2 warning points for that! If this shit keeps up Torsten I'm threatening to leave.. haha nah j/k man

seriously though what's happening with this forum split? Unify Peeps!

[incognito]

jebus this thread just wont die!! poor marsha.

[apothecary]

If merely showing women of this ethnicity is contra-islam.. moslems should not visit this site if they feel it will break part of their moral code, the remainder of non-believers are free to make up their own mind.

I extend the same offer to you. If you feel like the moderation of these images somehow offends your moral code then feel free to quit whining about it and leave.

I wonder how many nuns are up in arms when they hear of the new porno featuring nuns

Err I guess all of them? What is your point? That pictures of "nude" nuns wouldn't have been removed?

I personally feel that the veil is just another form of male domination complex/subjugation of women mindset, unless of course the decision to wear it is voluntary (religious brainwashing simply doesn't count).

Considering that none of the proponent forum members of veil wearing have even been to a (even moderate) Muslim country to see what it's like...well I can't take those opinions as much more than a naive fetish really.

Edited October 31, 2007 by apothecary

[The Dude]

I extend the same offer to you. If you feel like the moderation of these images somehow offends your moral code then feel free to quit whining about it and leave.

I rather continue whining and Not leave (with your blessing of course Mr. Moderator). I think taking offense at anything is silly, unless damage is caused then nudy pics hurt nobody, get over it. Getting offended is the result of prudishness indoctrination, of any cultural/religious persuasion.

Err I guess all of them? What is your point? That pictures of "nude" nuns wouldn't have been removed?

The point is sexified nuns even non-nude nuns aren't going to spark an argument over racism sexism and religious intolerance. They will be seen as nothing more than a sexual fetish and any further socio/political considerations are thrown out, this is nothing more than eye candy. But then the point is we're not meant to look at them isn't it? So we have the outburst by somebody trying to keep their image sacred, as it is a religious custom and posting 'moslem-appearing-to-be' women in slightly revealing veils is an offensive insult to the religion apparently. Not only that it's sexist and racist too apparently.

I personally feel that the veil is just another form of male domination complex/subjugation of women mindset, unless of course the decision to wear it is voluntary (religious brainwashing simply doesn't count).

The Religious / "sexist" reality of the headscarfs is what gets people enraged, especially if they've been witness to what they consider sexist subjugation of women - I can't say I have an opinion, it's a religious belief and well aren't we meant to be religiously tolerant here and not blast it as brainwashing? I figured that was the whole point of the moderation, to appease the offended, because of their religious standing.

SO I'm confused are you FOR religious tolerance and stepping around eggshells with whats done so as to not insult anybody's sacred beliefs or are you criticising these sacred beliefs?. Really I think an indocrinated mind viewing these forums is in the wrong place. Taking drugs is bad for you and your religion, don't read anything here.

Considering that none of the proponent forum members of veil wearing have even been to a (even moderate) Muslim country to see what it's like...well I can't take those opinions as much more than a naive fetish really.

EXACTLY!!!!

You said it, it's a fetish, nothing more, all the socio/religious/political commentary may have a place were this to be a discussion on the merits of the veil-wearing custom, however I think Yowie would agree this was Definitely not intended as a discussion, rather a veiled women appreication thread.. and can somebody please tell me just what the fuck is wrong with that?

I've seen plenty of nipples n nudy bits on these forums, and cuz one of them wore a veil we get an offended person (my heart goes out to the person that lets themselves get offended) and everybody is up in arms and something must be done!! good work at trying to appease the masses apothecary, never realised how hard it must be to mediate so many conflicting views...

I just have one question about Racial / Religious Tolerance and Peace and Equality and all that jazz...

Why can't we practice the equality we preach and have moslem porn, it's not our problem their society seems to be as sexually repressed as our western society once was in the not too distant past.

Drug orgies are the way to solve this problem i think.. nah lets make it a blood orgy! Seriously though if everyone was fucking like animals publically these taboos and repressions would be a thing of the past. Archaic Revival Baby!!!

one more note...

Offense is a pretext to get righteously indignant cuz high horses are fun to ride!

[marsha]

i just find their eyes and modesty very pretty and attractive lets not make too much of it ;)

[Torsten]

It's what's NOT SEEN, what's implied, what's left to the imagination that makes these images erotic.

yeah, that's why I prefer guys in boxers rather than briefs

As for the moderation of this thread, at the time we had a female muslim member who was offended by the images. I figured if she got offended then other muslim women might get offended too. Maybe we pandered too much to her psychotic state of mind, but as they say, hindsight is 20/20. I personally feel that at the time the decision was made with the best considerations and I think Apothecary handled this just fine. It's a bit silly to rehash this argument now that the dynamics and circumstances have changed so much. That said, I think if the desperate and dateless testosterone driven majority that inhabits this forum wants any chance at having more women join [and stay] then posting porn is probably not the way to go about it.

[The Dude]

More Porn More Porn!

what about those vagina flowers we had before? I mean whats wrong with appreciating beauty, the girls can post their manporn if they want, provided its clearly labelled to avoid any suprises.

Meh I guess this isn't a porn site and the rest of the internets is so meh, whatever I'm not fussed either way, post or don't, moderate or don't, why do i have to be so opinionated about everything? It's the principle not the actual porno i care about.

I just figured an alternative forum might have alternative postings without having to be 100% politically correct and catering to everybody's personal issues.

Projecting racism and sexism onto a neutral image with maybe a bit of booby, is a personal issue.

Yowie: link me up the "offensive" image could ya? I'm bloody curious to see how offensive it is.

...and i wanna perv

...and objectify women. Pfft like torsten was saying im sure theres plenty objectification of men too.

Edited November 1, 2007 by El Duderino

[apothecary]

Getting offended is the result of prudishness indoctrination, of any cultural/religious persuasion.

lol. Forgive my skepticism but to me it is obvious you are arguing this "enlightened" view from a purely theoretical standpoint, i.e. I honestly doubt there isn't some form of fetish pictures that wouldn't leave you offended.

If you are gonna say that nothing would offend you I again call bullshit, I am sure I could find something. Of course if I did then by your own logic you must leave, right?

The point is sexified nuns even non-nude nuns aren't going to spark an argument over racism sexism and religious intolerance. They will be seen as nothing more than a sexual fetish and any further socio/political considerations are thrown out, this is nothing more than eye candy.

What? "Sexified" nuns even non nude nuns spark arguments over sexism and religious intolerance all the time.

But then the point is we're not meant to look at them isn't it? So we have the outburst by somebody trying to keep their image sacred, as it is a religious custom and posting 'moslem-appearing-to-be' women in slightly revealing veils is an offensive insult to the religion apparently. Not only that it's sexist and racist too apparently.

Or maybe I had to draw the line as to what was acceptable somewhere, and simply left it at "if you want porn, go to a porn site, don't bring the porn here".

- I can't say I have an opinion, it's a religious belief and well aren't we meant to be religiously tolerant here and not blast it as brainwashing?

Wow you sure do write a lot of essay length posts for someone without an opinion.

You completely misinterpreted my comment, what I said was I have nothing against women who wear veils/burqa/whatever by choice, but if they have been brainwashed into "choosing" then it doesn't count!

I figured that was the whole point of the moderation, to appease the offended, because of their religious standing.

The whole point of moderation is having your every post scrutinised (misread) for intent, criticised for expressing a point of view opposing to anyone elses, and generally making sure everyone is unhappy.

Or maybe it's just to try and maintain a simple standard of civility and quality?

Really I think an indocrinated mind viewing these forums is in the wrong place. Taking drugs is bad for you and your religion, don't read anything here.

Heh. Yeah man, all the stuff you say indicates to me you are completely liberated from indoctrination and any programming.

You said it, it's a fetish, nothing more, all the socio/religious/political commentary may have a place were this to be a discussion on the merits of the veil-wearing custom, however I think Yowie would agree this was Definitely not intended as a discussion, rather a veiled women appreication thread.. and can somebody please tell me just what the fuck is wrong with that?

That's the point exactly. No discussion, no contributions of any merit, just a bunch of people behaving like children.

I just have one question about Racial / Religious Tolerance and Peace and Equality and all that jazz...

Why can't we practice the equality we preach and have moslem porn, it's not our problem their society seems to be as sexually repressed as our western society once was in the not too distant past.

Who exactly is preaching equality between different types of porn?

Drug orgies are the way to solve this problem i think.. nah lets make it a blood orgy! Seriously though if everyone was fucking like animals publically these taboos and repressions would be a thing of the past. Archaic Revival Baby!!!

By your logic if everyone was fucking in the streets and someone went out and fucked a small child then you'd be ok with that... Archaic Revival Baby! oh wait, you mean you draw the line somewhere?

one more note...

Offense is a pretext to get righteously indignant cuz high horses are fun to ride!

Pretty funny considering your entire contribution to this thread has been nothing but righteous indignation.

I couldn't reply to all your points because "my post exceeds the number of allowed quote blocks"

[marsha]

That said, I think if the desperate and dateless testosterone driven majority that inhabits this forum wants any chance at having more women join [and stay] then posting porn is probably not the way to go about it.

porn bleh crazy crazy talk sheesh these women could not be any more dressed it is impossible it is simply some very beautiful images of some very attractive modest women jeepers i love this thread;) i have mentioned nothing sexual in this thread that i am aware of? they are pictures of more than fully clothed women and somehow this is porn hahah mad fuks some of the veils are the most uber fabrics and patterns and some very pretty eyes and beautiful expressions? if all u can think about is porn sex and doing lewd acts to these women and yourself then maybe something not right hey? but then again i persist in just posting the odd tasteful pic of pretty veiled girls am i doing something wrong i dont think so?

Edited November 1, 2007 by YoWiE

[Torsten]

ummm, yowie, I guess you forgot about the image that was deleted. Not sure, but I think most people would regard bare breasts as porn.

The issue here isn't baout whether porn is good or bad. I love porn [Happy to post some if you're curious ], I just don't think we really need it here. It keeps causing problems with folks reading the forums at work or with family around, and really, why do we need it here? [and I mean porn, not the images in this thread]

Apo, don't bother buying into duderino's baiting. I doubt he really cares about this issue either way. It seems he cares more about how you will respond.

[marsha]

no worries torsten is it possible this thread could be cleqaned up of tepas images of naked men?? please maybe he can have a naked man appreciation thread somewhere else god knows why he enjoys such images so much i thought he was straight u really need to chat to that boy ;)

[Vertmorpheus]

Ahhh... warm weather is upon us again, I see!

I thought some of those pics, both genders, where very artful. Didn't find any of em pornographic, but then you name an object and someone, somewhere will get off on it... imagine a shoe fetishist with a Mathers catalogue. I can see how someone, somewhere would probably end up being offended by them. But if we left off any artistic endeavour that offended someone, somewhere, we wouldn't have any art, anywhere. Art that doesn't challenge is just... design. Visual masturbation for the easily frightened. People do have a right of reply to the expressions of others, it shouldn't have to default so quickly to who said what about who, who is what kind of bigot, etc. I am sure if Yowie wanted to offend, pure n simple, he could find something perhaps just a tiny bit more ...confronting. maybe he is just the worlds least proficient flasher, or something.

Drink more water, it keeps you cool.

VM

ah, nearly forgot... I don't mind if people pinch cuttings or beans from things here n there , incidentally, as long as it's done "properly". So maybe make that "majority of the community" or "a good deal of the community" rather than "the community". I speak for myself, thankye very much.

[Auxin]

I love porn [Happy to post some if you're curious ], I just don't think we really need it here.

I am kind of curious what your into... dont think I didnt notice you evaded my question about pink-heart panties in the raid thread I do remember your kissing videos tho, somea them were cute. Anyway your right this isnt a porn board, if folks want free porn they should go to puretna.com or something.

jeepers i love this thread;)

A peace kitten just for you:

[incognito]

haha yowie! LOOK AT WHAT U HAVE DONE!!

its all YOWIES FAULT!!

asshole!

[mark80]

...and objectify women. Pfft like torsten was saying im sure theres plenty objectification of men too.

I get objectfied all the time by girls.... and i love it.... he he he

I wish

[The Dude]

Torsten

Apo, don't bother buying into duderino's baiting. I doubt he really cares about this issue either way. It seems he cares more about how you will respond.

Torsten and Apothecary why does every disagreement or argument somehow get labelled as trolling or baiting. Seems like a conveniant way to seperate us from them.. evil trollers trying to bring the ethnobot community down. Yep that's me, I'll see you guys at ega I can't wait to meet up!

I'm just making my points which I stand by until somebody convinces me otherwise, and well isn't that the purpose of a discussion, cuz this thread has been totally raped by now I guess that's all it's ever been really, an argument about the perceived religious/racial/sexist bigotry within the action of posting the pictures, it should be more about the beauty of their eyes... transfixing, anyway. I'm not baiting for the sake of pissing people off, I actually sort of care about where this line is drawn.

apothecary

lol. Forgive my skepticism but to me it is obvious you are arguing this "enlightened" view from a purely theoretical standpoint, i.e. I honestly doubt there isn't some form of fetish pictures that wouldn't leave you offended.

If you are gonna say that nothing would offend you I again call bullshit, I am sure I could find something. Of course if I did then by your own logic you must leave, right?

If I got offended I might even whinge about it but i don't expect you to buy into it and delete things cuz i can't look at them with my sensitive eyes, if i have a problem then yes i would leave, point is i'm trying to not have a problem anyway.

And about fucked up fetishes my poor eyes have been exposed to some horrid stuff on... thank god I can't remember the wesite but its well know for its fucked up-ness DAMNIT remembered "stile project" or something. Offense isn't the right word, physically ill maybe. Point is if i was warned about it in the title I wouldn't have clicked it. this thread was labelled clearly.

Please do try to offend me, not on these boards perhaps, I dunno, slice off a babies head in front of me or something. I'll have to accept that is what you just did and I'd have to think that maybe you're a crazy fucker and something must be done but I really Really REALLY need to keep cool in any and every situation and not get offended as it is a drain on the emotions. No matter what the extreme, being offended only weaknes you.

apothecary

What? "Sexified" nuns even non nude nuns spark arguments over sexism and religious intolerance all the time.

Somehow I don't see nun fetish porn causing as much of a problem... not many nuns on these here boards maybe? I mean nun-hood is a small part of christianity whereas the burqas seem to be common to a lot of islamic people and it's a hot issue of late, so a higher likelihood of somebody getting offended. - and that's exactly what happened and you drew the line. I guess that's fair enough, no beefs here really. I still disagree on principle but practically people are way too easily offended about bullshit and we must cater to their sensitivities.

apothecary

Or maybe I had to draw the line as to what was acceptable somewhere, and simply left it at "if you want porn, go to a porn site, don't bring the porn here".

Fair enough the line must be drawn I'm just amused at the apparent inconsistencies in moderating "porn" i SWEAR I've seen "porn" on here before, Only nobody's ever kicked up a fuss until now.

apothecary

Wow you sure do write a lot of essay length posts for someone without an opinion.

I don't have an opinion on the burqa wearing tradition within islam I can't say I'm that educated on it. My essay length opinions are about the principle of censoring boobies because of a single offended outcry. I think prudishness especially in the name of religion should be abolished. I understand people have their religious sensitivities but that response was purely reactionary, very passionate and not very informative, if they could explain to me just what is sexist and racist. instead of "SEXIST, RACIST, FUCKING DISGUSTING SHIT like this is allowed, this place is FUCKED. "

and you played into that. Why do whingers always get what they want?. didn't she leave anyway so why do we still care about antiquated victorian era-esque prudishness?

apothecary

You completely misinterpreted my comment, what I said was I have nothing against women who wear veils/burqa/whatever by choice, but if they have been brainwashed into "choosing" then it doesn't count!

I'm sure Islam has something about god granting free-will too. How much do we choose and how much we think we choose is a matter of indoctrination too, I'm sure some choose to wear this for fashion and some for religious purposes. But tell me is not practicisng your religion synonymous with being brainwashed by it? all organised belief systems suggest behaviours to the masses, is that not brainwashing? I'm just confused where's the distinction between a religious person choosing to wear a headscarf and a religious person being brainwashed to choose to. If you're brainwashed to think you chose it you've still got free-will as far as you know... this is a confusing thoughtloop you got me on apothecary cuz it makes no sense!

you say you're for them wearing it if it's a choice... it's always a choice even to the "brainwashed" as far as they know. So you're all for them choosing to, but your not. I mean you're all for them practising their religion and choosing to, so long as it's not forced onto them by their religious indoctrination? so you're all for them believing in what their religion tells them and choosing to follow it, as long as they're not choosing to follow it as a result of their belief in their religion?

apothecary

The whole point of moderation is having your every post scrutinised (misread) for intent, criticised for expressing a point of view opposing to anyone elses, and generally making sure everyone is unhappy.

Who's unhappy, the offended lady and us cuz your robbing us of burqaerotica!!! ah well, over it... really i promise

apothecary

Or maybe it's just to try and maintain a simple standard of civility and quality?

yep understood, appease everyone

apothecary

Heh. Yeah man, all the stuff you say indicates to me you are completely liberated from indoctrination and any programming.

Apothecary if you know what obvious indoctrination I'm under please let me know me so I can figure out just who the fuck has programmed my mind, thank you.

apothecary

That's the point exactly. No discussion, no contributions of any merit, just a bunch of people behaving like children.

What's to discuss? wow she's purty look at those eyes.. anybody got anymore pictures, unfortunately this got hijacked with all this bullshit and it turned into a nerdy discussion like everything here seems must be, even in the chill space, for chilling and not straining the head. I wouldn't mind easy going threads without 'contributions of any merit' if i can relax my mind and look at some pretty women.

apothecary

Who exactly is preaching equality between different types of porn?

Nobody is preaching equal rights porn, I just figured that the ethnocommunity may be somewhat hippy-like in their tendencies and be all for equality. If so that'd be quite the hypocrisy to allow caucasion nakedness but not moslem nakedness. But I guess we're not for that then are we, and the only one preaching here is me so you're right apothecary.

EQUAL RIGHTS PORN!

EQUAL RIGHTS PORN!

apothecary

By your logic if everyone was fucking in the streets and someone went out and fucked a small child then you'd be ok with that... Archaic Revival Baby! oh wait, you mean you draw the line somewhere?

Dude.. sex with children is the extreme that should not ever be permited by any "liberated" society. Attraction to children is not a neutral fetish, it is one that leads to harm, and as such it is a sickness.

Sex between consenting adults on the other hand is a beautiful thing, and I can't help it if when seeing attractive women for some reason that springs into my mind. Is it because they're wearing burqas and that automatically associates to the history of mysoginy and subjugation of women with methods such as cloaking their individuality in a full body veil and i get turned on by the domination I'd have over such a woman..........

......

Or is it that concealing and hiding makes for good erotica, especially when they got such puuuurrrty eyes.

The comparison with the projected subjugation of women within these images to the reality of subjugation when an adult has sex with a child is a bit of a stretch and the line can very obviously be drawn wherever somebody is being harmed.

you are right apothecary a line must be drawn somewhere, i just think softporn with a bit of boob, especially if its artfully erotic, may as well be shared. Some kind of rough sex bashing stuff might be a bit wrong. I just dont consider nudes to be porn, even though they may very well be arousing, it's not explicit and not porn IMHO

BTW - An Archaic Society periodically experiencing ecstacy and the collective mind would no way in hell stand for child abuse. Releasing society from the bondages of repression is one thing, exploiting a weaker person is another. In any case the oppression of women in islam is not reinforced by the burqa fetish as such fetishism (AFAIK) is contrary to islam anyway. It is seen as sexy by some but i'm sure that is far from the intent of the dress as it is seen to be more about humility instead of objectifying the body.

apothecary

Pretty funny considering your entire contribution to this thread has been nothing but righteous indignation.

Indignant?

Opinionated yes, very.

Indignant? ...

"SEXIST, RACIST, FUCKING DISGUSTING SHIT like this is allowed, this place is FUCKED."

^^^THAT's righteously indignant.

apothecary

I couldn't reply to all your points because "my post exceeds the number of allowed quote blocks"

sure sure, you couldn't come up with the arguments. (also that's why i did the bold highlighting thing)

nevermind replying, i'm only baiting, why waste energy on trolls eh, i hope i havn't offended anybody in anyway, but then that's their prerogative to choose offense.. it makes no sense!!! Out of the range of emotive states to hang in, lets go for the depressive ones eh?

It is an ideal and it is one that I hope I can keep to, cuz why bother feeling down about anything.

Hey I just fucking realised!!!! I must've been indoctrinated by everybody loves raymond, Watched it tonight [yesterday when i wrote this stuff], it was the optimist episode where he tried really hard not to let anything get him down. and thats the exact same bullshit I'm pushing now... TV is my church.

(don't reply I'm only baiting)

[edit] spelling and stuff.

Edited November 2, 2007 by El Duderino