XipeTotec Posted February 13, 2007 I thought this would be an interesting thread to discuss on these forums. A number of animal venoms have been reputed to have entheogenic qualities. A species of ants has been reputably swallowed by a tribe of Californian Indians, with the bites injecting the same active substance as that found in cantnip/mint? "Dream fish" found around norfolk island, is reputed to produce dream enhancement. Cane toads have been employed (although bufotenine is not classed as an entheogen.) Anyone know of anyone who has had experiences with these. Anyone care to add to the list of Entheozoological species or ellaborate further on those already outlined. Mods, Please feel free to move this to another sub-forum if you feel this one to be an inappropriate location. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ace Posted February 13, 2007 I have heard of the Colorado River Toad excreting bufotenine - why wouldnt this be classed as an entheogen? And is this the same venom as in the common Cane Toad found in Northern Aus? I have heard a tiny bit about the fish - One old guy apparently had a near death experience or something (its been a while since I read the article). His mate apparently had a lot of visuals and other hallucinations. Never heard about the ants tho... I think I have heard of another animal, but for the life of me cant think what it was now... Great idea for a thread - should come up with some great results :D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amulte Posted February 13, 2007 I have heard of the Colorado River Toad excreting bufotenine - why wouldnt this be classed as an entheogen?And is this the same venom as in the common Cane Toad found in Northern Aus? Colorado River Toad and Soran Desert Toad (Bufo alvirus) both produce 5-meo-dmt, the Cane Toad (Bufo marinus) only produces bufotine. all the toads in the bufo species produce bufotine. There is also the Phylo Medusa Tricolour that produces an unknow substance, suspected bufotine. theres a few sea creatures with psychoactive toxins, even that puffer fish (latin name escapes me right now) that produces i think it was Delta-13 THC amongst many others. Cobra is incredably high in tetosterone to the point where it will have major effects if eaten. also the venom of the rattle snake is psychoactive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conan Troutman Posted February 13, 2007 First off good idea, might make for a great reward at the end of your tropical fishing adventure... the main actives in catnip are found in the volatile i cant understand why it would be preferable to be bitten by an ants rather than just smoking of drinking sum catnip tea. Bufo Alvarus, Sonoran Desert or Colorodo River Toad is the toad you are thinking of, it is close relative of the cane toad but also contains 5meo and nn dmt, aswell as bufoteine in the venom. Bufoteine most defiantly is an enthneogen as is likely one of the oldest used shamanically in south america. Other species of frog known as the monkey frog are also used. here is a list of suspected pyschoactive fish most likely containing indoles :Abudefduf septemfasciatus (Sergeant major) Pacific Ocean, Africa : Epinephelus corallicola (Grouper) Pacific Ocean : Kyphosus cinerascens (Bluefish) Indonesia : Kyphosus vaigiensis (Brass bream) Indonesia : Mugil cephalus (Flathead mullet) The tropics : Mulloidichtys samoensis (Golden goatfish) Indonesia : Neomyxus chaptali (Mullet) Indonesia : Saganus oramin (Rabbitfish) Indonesia, West Africa : Upeneus arge (Goatfish) Indonesia (Halstead, Courville: Poisonous and Venomous Marine Animals of the World, : Vol 2, U.S.Government Printing Office 1967) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conan Troutman Posted February 13, 2007 Men hallucinate after eating fish http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/...em.php?news=911 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XipeTotec Posted February 13, 2007 Bufoteine most defiantly is an enthneogen as is likely one of the oldest used shamanically in south america. Other species of frog known as the monkey frog are also used. I don't doubt that bufotenine produces effects. I just remember reading somewhere that it is not actually classed as a "psychedelic" ( I can only assume that this term and entheogen are interchangeable). Not sure why this is... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XipeTotec Posted February 13, 2007 also the venom of the rattle snake is psychoactive. I was almost going to mention this, due to the fact that a friend in the states told me of an acquaintance of his that was bitten by a snake while hiding under his house from the cops. He described it as being like acid, with the effects lasting a couple of days(was too worried about cops to go to hospital). Not sure what sort of snake (although there were rattlers in the area) Also, not sure "how much like acid" the experience was.(I suspect that "Like Acid" and similar phrases can be used to describe a large variety of experiences) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XipeTotec Posted February 13, 2007 Men hallucinate after eating fishhttp://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/...em.php?news=911 Ichthyoallyeinotoxism Indoles, with similar chemical effects to LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide) are believed to be responsible and may be consumed when the fish eat algae or phytoplankton containing the chemicals. All of the species effected by ichthyoallyeinotoxism are algal grazers. Has anyone ever heard of the algae or phytoplankton being harvested for this purpose? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conan Troutman Posted February 13, 2007 shroomy: im not sure you understand the definiation on an ethneogen. heres one from wiki of course An entheogen, in the strictest sense, is a psychoactive substance (most often some plant matter with hallucinogenic effects) that occasions an enlightening spiritual or mystical experience. In a broader sense, the word "entheogen" refers to artificial as well as natural substances that induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional shamanic inebriants, even if it is used in a secular context. bufoteine is the main and most likely sole active in A.colubrina which has been recorded for its SHAMANIC use for about 4000years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ace Posted February 13, 2007 Thanks Conan - that was the link I was thinking of (I think it was already posted in another thread) Also a great list of fish to work with Thats quite interesting about the snakes too - I wonder if these animals will one day be used to manufacture new psychedelic compounds? Probably looks silly stm, but I'm sure that people will eventually see where these roads lead... But I think I'd rather take on a fish than a cobra lol So is the bufotine (the only one found in the Aus Cane Toad) active? Perhaps this is the one Shroomy's thinking of? I have heard of folks licking cane toads in the past few years in Aus - but they were being poisoned more than anything AFAIK. Could anyone elaborate? Haha - reminds me of the Drawn Together episode on SBS about when they lick the Pikachu thing and all get high off it lol - did anyone see that episode (or watch it for that matter)? Hmm, what else can be added to the list? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conan Troutman Posted February 13, 2007 I think oral bufoteine has a tendency to make people mroe sick than other means of administration, id stick with Villca snuff or smoke. when homer becomes a missionary... Marge: Homer are you licking toads again. Homer: Im not,not licking toads. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XipeTotec Posted February 13, 2007 (edited) shroomy: im not sure you understand the definiation on an ethneogen. heres one from wiki of course An entheogen, in the strictest sense, is a psychoactive substance (most often some plant matter with hallucinogenic effects) that occasions an enlightening spiritual or mystical experience. In a broader sense, the word "entheogen" refers to artificial as well as natural substances that induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional shamanic inebriants, even if it is used in a secular context. bufoteine is the main and most likely sole active in A.colubrina which has been recorded for its SHAMANIC use for about 4000years. Here is where I got my belief from... psychedelic encyclopaedia, page 262. "Psilocin, interestingly, is the nearest reletive to bufotenine,once thought to be a psychoactive compound,which was first discovered in the skin secretions of toads..... etc. I obviously have interchanged the words psychoactive and entheogen... I may have been wrong to do this, I dont know. I have never consumed bufotenine, so I can't comment on it's effects. Edited February 13, 2007 by shroomytoonos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted February 13, 2007 It should be noted that Bufo species not only produce bufotenin but also some steroid compounds which ARE toxic. Here is an excellent information thread (as usual) by teo: http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...showtopic=10275 Here is a great thread related to Bufo where Torsten....well...you'll see: http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=2570 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conan Troutman Posted February 13, 2007 (edited) I think it would be closer to n.n-dmt than psilo, as it is dmt with an OH group??. thanks apo good point, toads contain glycosides that are similiar to the toxins found in foxglove. here a good article for you shroomy http://www.erowid.org/archive/sonoran_desert_toad/ott.htm Edited February 13, 2007 by Conan Troutman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XipeTotec Posted February 13, 2007 (edited) I think it would be closer to n.n-dmt than psilo, as it is dmt with an OH group??.here a good article for you shroomy http://www.erowid.org/archive/sonoran_desert_toad/ott.htm thanks conan, will read that when I get a chance, as far as the chem structure, that was a quote from the book, I actually have no idea of what it chemically resembles. Edited February 13, 2007 by shroomytoonos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted February 13, 2007 I think it would be closer to n.n-dmt than psilo, as it is dmt with an OH group??. Psilocin is 4-OH-DMT. Bufotenin is 5-OH-DMT That's pretty close! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jesus On Peyote Posted February 13, 2007 In a documentry about a guy that went to the amazonian rain forrests in brazil it had a clip of a guy "extracting" (torturing) bufo from a frog and i say its as bad to torture animals for any kind of a high then it is to kill em for their fur. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gomaos Posted February 13, 2007 it had a clip of a guy "extracting" (torturing) bufo from a frog and i say its as bad to torture animals for any kind of a high then it is to kill em for their fur. well I've seen people milk (cane0toads, and it didnt look that bad, pretty straight forward procedure, don't think the animals suffered a lot, they were quite fit afterwards. it's just like milking cows, if you know what you're doing... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XipeTotec Posted February 13, 2007 it had a clip of a guy "extracting" (torturing) bufo from a frog and i say its as bad to torture animals for any kind of a high then it is to kill em for their fur. well I've seen people milk (cane0toads, and it didnt look that bad, pretty straight forward procedure, don't think the animals suffered a lot, they were quite fit afterwards. it's just like milking cows, if you know what you're doing... yeah, I tried to milk cane toads once, but couldn't find the nipples. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Monk Posted February 13, 2007 Pendell's Pharmako/Gnosis mentions Fugu liver as a potentially fatal, but erotically interesting entheogen. Kinda scary as the interesting dose and the fatal dose are not too far apart. I don't have the book in front of me and can't remember the toxin, but It's in salamanders(!?) as well. While it is illegal to consume the liver in Japan, it is common there as well for wealthy business men who are tight with the chef. Doesn't sound like my kind of sushi, but I mention it for informational purposes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amulte Posted February 13, 2007 In a documentry about a guy that went to the amazonian rain forrests in brazil it had a clip of a guy "extracting" (torturing) bufo from a frog Guy was Gibons, frog was the Phylo Medusa Tricolour. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mu! Posted February 14, 2007 Pendell's Pharmako/Gnosis mentions Fugu liver as a potentially fatal, but erotically interesting entheogen. Kinda scary as the interesting dose and the fatal dose are not too far apart. I don't have the book in front of me and can't remember the toxin, but It's in salamanders(!?) as well. While it is illegal to consume the liver in Japan, it is common there as well for wealthy business men who are tight with the chef. Doesn't sound like my kind of sushi, but I mention it for informational purposes. I wonder if thats the same delicacy homer simpson eats on the simpsons (waaaay back). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ace Posted February 14, 2007 I wonder if thats the same delicacy homer simpson eats on the simpsons (waaaay back). That was fom the pufferfish wasnt it? Good episode! I have also read that milking the frogs/toads will not do any damage to them. But folks used to kill them and use their entire skin before this was possible and probably put a dint in the amphibian population... I think there is a place in America where you can buy the active species online for a hefty price, but they have instructions on how to care for them and everything. Might be worth investigating for any of our mates over that side of the globe So whats the go with the Aussie Cane Toad - does it get a Yay or Nay? I have no itentions of ever sucking on one of those ugly buggers though lol I heard about the toxins in foxgloves a few years back (well, I was knee high to a grasshopper at the time ), but do they have any goodies/not so goodies in them that should be investigated? Sorry my memory is really hazy about that one... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SaBReT00tH Posted February 14, 2007 (edited) Haha According to the paper, Sarpa salpa was consumed as a recreational drug in the Med during the Roman Empire. Anyway, does anyone know if Bufo alvirus toads are available from any pet shops or reptile collectors in Oz?? Or are they endangered? I would've thought there'd be a couple of keen breeding conservationists who breed this fine specimen Edited February 14, 2007 by SaBReT00tH Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XipeTotec Posted February 14, 2007 Does anyone know if Bufo alvirus toads are available from any pet shops or reptile collectors in Oz?? Or are they endangered? I would've thought there'd be a couple of keen breeding conservationists who breed this fine specimen it would be of interest to keep as a pet. I would think that after the cane toad disaster, that very few amphibians would be allowed into australia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
