Mt Buffalo / Acacia phlebophylla

[gem]

Have to say - I think Darklight's initial response (timestamped 12:56) was completely fine - no questions. Maybe the next posting was different, but has anyone stopped to consider how upset DL must have been on *that* particular day, to learn that 400 hectares of Mt Buffalo was burning?? Just the sheer frustration of not being able to do anything for the phlebophylla and the grief over possibly losing such a unique plant... something to consider perhaps before passing judgement? I have a bad day *every* day lately, for one post I think it's reasonable to cut the lady some slack eh?

[Torsten]

Originally posted by spunwhirllin:

my reactions are justified,i will not back down and delete anything.

Pity. I actually agree that DL's reaction was over the top and was hoping for this situation to resolve itself (like once she feels better). However, name calling will not be tolerated and I am going to wait for the moderators action on this, but presume you will be deleted from the forums entirely. I would much rather see you present and to have this resolved peacefully, but certain things go too far. Read the rules.

planthelper - the guitar was the least of your problems at daniel's party

In any case, I don't think anyone noticed, even though a few of us are musos.

inpsyght - yes, this was Julian. I am glad to hear your side of it cos he keeps telling us how he only fed the brew to really dedicated 'in-scene' types who knew how to appreciate the special nature of that brew. Obviously not so. There have been long discussion here and elsewhere about this issue and basically it comes down to Julian's prophetic right to harvest this sacrament and he quite clearly states that he is entitled to harvest as he has a special purpose on this planet. See his ramble at ayahuasca.com etc - there is a link in the 'brilliant mind or...' thread (and my personal opinion of it).

[spunwhirllin]

greetings,

i would'nt of asked for anything if i knew that TC was darklights profession/livlyhood.

i was just looking for some advice or help or even a hint or two,i did'nt ask for all of the research regarding the acacia.

as for name calling,though justified,i myself really despise having to descend into a mucky world of profanity.

i understand if im deleted,but i do find this forum very informative and interesting.

im glad it came into existance.

peace n anok

[Darklight]

Originally posted by Torsten:

Pity. I actually agree that DL's reaction was over the top

Even I reckon it was Alright alright I'm a bitch, shit its not like its a surprise to anyone the poor bloke stepped on my professional toes, which is easy enough to do in any field when starting out ( which was omitted in spunwhirlin's original post ). And while I *still* think it was a question worded very rudely I felt that any less an answer would lack clarity as to the reasons behind it

So yes, spunwhirlin, I do apologise to you for biting so hard

A certain amount of protectiveness for that particular sp is involved And away from the forums I am frequently called upon to justify my reasons for not giving everything on demand to ppl whose overall community contribution is limited to their ability to breathe; the lack of any reciprocal offer in the original post did hit a rather raw nerve

darklight, do you remember daniels party? "normaly" if a guitarist hands over his instrument to an other, they state the type of how its tuned..

oh dear planthelper...it did take a while to find that file that was eight months ago IMO 'normally' ( should such a condition exist ) if someone hands you their guitar you check it first to see that the tuning is both correct and to your liking. Everyone I know does that, perhaps its a perceptual difference

As I'd had three or four drinks by that stage and you'd had ( I think ) several more and we were both talking to other ppl I'm surprised you assume me capable of assigning such devious agendas to my inability to remember that my sixth string was tuned to the Renaissance D instead of the standard E. It was certainly *not* my intention to make you look stupid.

[Darklight]

Originally posted by spunwhirllin:

i would'nt of asked for anything if i knew that TC was darklights profession/livlyhood.

Hey spunwhirlin'

You and anyone else here are entitled and welcome to ask me about TC generally at any time. Details of research under contract are not often possible to provide- but general information definitely is.

We are setting up TC teaching and research facilities at Wandjina for precisely that purpose: there just aren't enough ppl in this field. Too much of the globally available resources are geared towards research I regard as superfluous- sticking frost tolerant genes into sunflowers or whatever isn't something I believe to be as high a priority as saving endangered species, but that's a personal perspective

There are enough research questions and endangered plants to keep us all up to our necks in agar for the next three generations so it's not like anyone's going to run out of work, as I've said before competition is no threat and mutualism is an even better perspective. We need more trained ppl out there to provide a balance, govt and big business just won't provide for that in the current climate

Had I realised you were new to the field, and not some nosy scientist wanting to grab the free stuff to help get themselves a pay rise ( as happens ) I def wouldn't have reacted the way I did

i was just looking for some advice or help or even a hint or two,i did'nt ask for all of the research regarding the acacia.

I quote only to clarify:

just wondering if you can can tell me a few methods and/or medias you've used,so i dont have to cover the already attempted ones.

Effetively this would be handing over all my data, though you may not realise it: methods and medias comprise all my work. I agree that duplication is a waste of effort, and I hope to complement future work using my own data once we have sufficient results for publication- even if it doesn't mean we have conclusive replication for that species ( but that would be nice, hey )

Perhaps we could correspond privately on the topic of TC generally, or here, if you prefer, and we can ascertain our mutual skills levels and resources- there may yet be common ground for future work

[Darklight]

Details of research under contract are not often possible to provide- but general information definitely is.

As an example,I do have professional agreements for information exchange with other facilities- they are obtained in writing, and cover confidentiality clauses etc very clearly.

While it looks a bit beaurocratic at first, it prevents misunderstandings at a later date: the conversation you had over coffee about phenolisation might not be something you wanted expanded into someone else's major publication without your name on it.Or it might, lets face it most things aren't that important.

There is no need to let the confidentiality requirements hamper the flow of information- they are legally binding documents and can work extremely well when communication is clear. They help establish formal prioritisation and agreements for dataflow processes which can itself encourage further exploration

[Guest reville]

Originally posted by planthelper:

ok rev. i know you are her friend.

subtle

Im no brown-noser. I say what i think - and what i think is that the allusion to occurences outside a lab reflecting on what goes on inside one is incorrect.

Ive seen more than most of how DL works so i feel i need to validate that point

[somnif]

While DL may well have to explain the tone of

her reaction, she certainly doesn't have to

explain the reasons behind not handing out the

intellectual property that forms the basis (

I presume) of her income.

In some jobs, IP is really all you have to

show for hours of work (I can fit all my

paid "work" from 1997 till now on less than

a floppy disk); the idea that a single leak

of information could lead to someone else

taking credit for months of effort is scary.

(there is a seperate issue of whether someone

can own an idea, that all information should

be free etc.; putting such ideals into a

practical framework is another (long)

discussion for another day)

Anyway, I was supporting DL re protecting

ideas until I heard about the sixth string

incident ;-) (no disrespect intended plant

helper)

The bad news is I hear on the news that there

are still fire in the Mountain areas of NE

Victoria.

Oh and spunwhirllin, welcome aboard!

[This message has been edited by somnif (edited 16 January 2003).]

[This message has been edited by somnif (edited 16 January 2003).]

[inpsyght]

.

Edited February 8, 2012 by inpsyght

[Guest mandragora]

Hi hi ,

I am not interfering here, but when you know DL you only can hear how she said it.

I could really hear your voice.

-no offense meant-

For the research: A friend of mine said latley, that you should'nt tell anybody of your ideas-research or not-, because they get stolen, which is, when you see it close really sad, and to need contracts for such things are neccesarry, not only in our time.

it is only a sad evidence of our human race.

[Guest mandragora]

ähh, for our human race

[Adrian]

Boy is it hot in here

I'm quietely hoping that they will rise from the ashes and be givin another chance.

I'm also confident in Darklight's technical skill and dedication to this species and will be placing an advanced order for several hundred plantlets at first word

Fingers crossed.

In regards to the heated exchanges earlier (yes, I'm slow):

it seems as thogh things have cooled down now, so I'll reluctantly put away my Whoop Ass stick (it's been ages, and I'm keen to use it again to make up for my absence

Darklight:

This forum aint big enough for the both of us!

...inflatable novelty baseball bats at sundown...

on second thoughts I'll just go and sit over here and keep my big mouth shut

&

Spunwhirllin:

So you'd like to know Darklight's A.phlebophylla TC secrets so far eh?

Well I'll disclose them for you.

Mix equal parts of money & dedication with blood, sweat & tears, then stir for a long time

actually omit the stirring

Adrian

[This message has been edited by Adrian (edited 17 January 2003).]

[Guest reville]

Originally posted by mandragora:

A friend of mine said latley, that you should'nt tell anybody of your ideas-research or not-, because they get stolen

maybe - at the moment im having difficulty trying to get people to take up my ideas - and im practically giving them away! by gawd sometime i want to slap them around a bit.

Most people wouldnt know a good idea if it fell out of the sky and wriggled across their face, and fewer still will actually end up doing something with it - which is whay im trying to give away excess ideas to people i like - so they at least get done as i certainly wont have time for them all.

[spunwhirllin]

yes,i completly understand now adrian,the outright tenacious remarks put foward by darklight illuminate the fact that she has indeed put alot of time,money,and effort into her work.besides also having to endure frustrations as equally tenacious.

the will to persevere is the will of success.

good luck darklight.

spun-out

[Darklight]

Thanx everyone *sniff* fancy getting pats on the head after making an arsehole of myself, talk about taking the wind outta my sails..

Tenacity and expertise does not always equal success unfortunately and it hasn't happened yet in this case, but it won't stop me. If I could just wish it better I would- and I've tried

OK spunwhirlin, here is a hint I *can* put together when working on this species- stay well away from the beaten track and the tried and true ( and other platitudes ) Go weird, they're the best results I have so far

If somebody else gets it, theoretically I'm happy, as long as it gets got and stays in the public domain ( I'd be burning with curiousity tho and hanging out to see the research paper... )

Ive seen more than most of how DL works so i feel i need to validate that point

He has too- and he's still talking to me Legend. Only one other person has survived working here and she is, as you know The Evil One and she says " Hi Rev "

Actually it took me a good 24 hours to understand yr initial response, I thought you were saying I was a permanent arsehole outside the lab but at least did good TC work

Until that very minute I was going to ask you to be my second in my inflatable novelty baseball bat duel with Adrian- so when I saw him taping razor blades onto his I quietly demurred

[Guest mandragora]

l

Edited April 17, 2007 by mandragora

[waterdragon]

rev - when the ideas start stacking up and threaten to overwhelm you just send them out to me in a list and i'll be happy to wade through them. also gem could use some cheering up so send some ideas north too.

[eccles]

Short Version of Rant:

I N A P P R O P R I A T E

A N D

O F F E N S I V E

Long Version:

I can't believe what I have been reading.

I had always thought that I was the person probably the most guilty of overreaction and completely and unjustifiably out of proportion reactions (perhaps it is not so evident on public forums as I often edit them before people can read them). However I find that I am a rank amateur.

For such responses to come from someone who is a moderator of this board and who thus should be setting a good example is just completely beyond belief.

Oh and I just remembered... the one time that I have had the biggest shit fight I have ever had on a board it was with Darklight. Hmmm food for thought.

I am not even going to comment on the original post or the reply, except to say that it should have been totally obvious that it was simply a request for help in trying a new method of cultivation from someone who obviously has more experience than the asker.

I don't care what you say to justify your reaction, (yeah he really sounds like he wants to commit industrial espionage doesn't he... just like everyone else on this board who asks for tips on how to grow sacred plants) It was far *far* ruder and more offensive than anything he said, if only for the fact that you assumed all the things you did about him without even giving him a chance. This is not a board populated by industrial theives but by plant enthusiasts, and if you are going to project your own fears onto honest people then you should not be held up as an example of how to behave on this board by holding a position as moderator.

People do not like to be treated like this, and if you are going to do so then he deserves an apology not only from you, but also from Torsten who has seen fit to make you a moderator.

[Torsten]

Eccles, I am glad you know that you're the last person who should comment on the issue of overreaction. I distinctly remember being accused and abused by a couple of people, including yourself over an inference into a statement I never made. Remember the issue about "ethnobotany author quality" at EA forums? You yourself admitted to sticking the boot in even though you admitted to simply being dragged along by the rants of (as you called them) 'sycophants'. I remember spending several hours of fielding your e-mails with one apology after another, yet you never publically apologised and you never actually edited the aggressive, inaccurate and insulting comments you made (even though you had promised all of the above). In fact, I have noticed that you never apologise publically to me, only privately. While I accepted your apologies, they seems so much less sincere in light of making no such comment or edit in public.

As far as your encouter with darklight goes, maybe you should retrieve it and have a read, cos it was quite obviously your usual sunday/monday coming-down paranoid aggressive overreaction - kinda quite similar to darklight's post above. Or maybe that's not the instance you're talking about... not sure how selective your memory is.

You're a hypocrite.

BTW, none of this excuses what darklight did here and I would have been happier with a more thorough apology. But hey, I remember that some people used to criticise me for being too involved in the politics and running of this forum....

I have nothing to apologise for. Mods make mistakes too. Darklight is not a mod in this forum anyway and it is up to adrian to work out the consequences of this issue. For you to make demands of apologies is once again hypocritical. Where are my promised apologies?? And you are not only a mod, but an administrator of a forum.

I think it is clear that we are all human and that we all snap or have irrational thoughts at times. (Some women moreso than others, eh DL )

It's biochemical and often we can't help it. But we still have to take responsiblity for it. So apologies are a nice thing. But an apology that needs to be demanded isn't worth much. Apologies need to be volunteered.

Seems to me that DL and spunwhirllin have it pretty well worked out and I don't think selfrighteous & hypocritical commentary will achieve anything at this stage other than maybe publicising your own grievances.

[ 20. January 2003, 23:38: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[Torsten]

Ahhh, I should have realised it is monday again.

Take your moods out on someone else eccles - keep me out of it.

[eccles]

Torsten:

Eccles, I am glad you know that you're the last person who should comment on the issue of overreaction. I distinctly remember being accused and abused by a couple of people, including yourself over an inference into a statement I never made. Remember the issue about "ethnobotany author quality" at EA forums?

Well, no I don't actually, I am going to have to look it up now... all I really remember is something vague about you saying that anyone who can't speak German shouldn't be commenting on the quality of the books currently being authored... just a sec.

ahhh! I found it at last [my god you have an incredible memory... no wonder you and mulga are still having this ridiculous 'war' - if your memory for grievences and grudge bearing capacity can last this long!]

What annoyed me in that particular thread was that whereas I was saying that it was up to us, the learners to develop our skills to the point that we can navigate through shit work (and yes torsten it *does* occur in every other field of science and the arts) all you seemed to want to do was to criticise the majority of the work available, on the basis that it is shit... all it looked like was ego posturing: "I am better than the rest of you and that's why none of you can see how shit all those books really are". and I found that somewhat insulting, despite the fact that I realise you certainly do know far more than most people who may have been reading it (and I definitely fall into that group too).

You yourself admitted to sticking the boot in even though you admitted to simply being dragged along by the rants of (as you called them) 'sycophants'. I remember spending several hours of fielding your e-mails with one apology after another

Because one apology never seems to satisfy you...

yet you never publically apologised and you never actually edited the aggressive, inaccurate and insulting comments you made

The reason I emailed you was because I knew that you would probably get the wrong end of the stick with what I was saying. Everyone else who posted on that thread was essentially saying the same thing - it was only you who went out and contradicted us - and then only to try to prove that it was because of your superiority to us.

(even though you had promised all of the above).

I seem to remember you telling me not to bother.

In fact, I have noticed that you never apologise publically to me, only privately.

Torsten, I was disagreeing with you in a *public* forum, in a *public* discussion. I disliked the way you were saying (implying that everyone except you is stupid) and I still do. I apologised to you privately for the tone, but not the content, because I realised that the tone of my posts could give you the impression that I wanted to start a fight with you personally, which I didn't. I have no problem maintaining a disagreement with someone, even publically, whilst having no problem with them as a person. If someone came onto your board and started insulting the intelligence of the users would you not step in and publically denounce their statements? But if you knew that in private that was just that persons way of expressing themselves and that they had never actually meant to insult anyone, would you not also email them and make sure they knew why you were doing it? I had a broader loyalty when I posted the messages I did, and it was my public loyalty to the users of the board. I was discharging my duties as administrator.

Just for the record, for everyone to see what I didn't apologise publically about, here is the complete thread:

http://www.ethnobotany-australia.net/phpBB...p?t=80&start=15

and here is the 'insulting' part of my post (unedited):

"this should be clear, surely? what exactly are you trying to prove?

that we should all pack it in because nothing is better than imperfection? or is this just some personal crusade to let us all know that you are not like everyone else, and don't make mistakes?

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I can't really see any other explanation for your incredible apparent lack of compromise in a very difficult area. "

I felt it was a very fair and moderate way to disagree with someone who was making posts that basically said that it is virtually impossible to get any good books in australia, because most of those published (that get here) are rubbish and contain lots of innacuracies. I felt that that was being unnessecarily discouraging (though it may well have been true), and the fact that you seemed to be discouraging everyone else from reading books that you had obviously read youself annoyed me too. How did you get to learn so much then if not by reading? and where is someone to start when people with your high profile tell them not to bother, all the books are crap?

You will also note that the last paragraph *was* a public apology about the tone of my post. However somehow I knew that would not satisfy Torsten, who was bound to see it as a personal attack.

While I accepted your apologies, they seems so much less sincere in light of making no such comment or edit in public.

Lets have a competition to see which user here can guess which part of my post should have been edited? Because I sure as hell can't see anything wrong with it. Anyone reading that would read it and not see someone with a vendetta against torsten, but see someone having a momentary disagreement with him, which is what it was. Am I allowed to disagree? I apologised in the thread for the tone, and I tried to make it clear in private that it was not meant to be taken personally. If everyone else did even that much every time they criticised someones position/statement, then our email boxes would all be constantly clogged with emails from people who are concerned not to have offended us everytime we say something they didn't like.

However, I publically apologise for the way I wrote that post. I could not go without criticising a statement that implicitly says that no-one should bother reading any of the available books on ethnobotany. It would have been irresponsible on my part. Just as it would have been irresponsible on your part not to have let everyone know the general quality of the work. Personally I thought that when you put our posts together they balanced out rather well... and people would have had some idea of the middle path.

As far as your encouter with darklight goes,

hehe well actually I'm amazed you managed to take this long to get to it, given that's what this thread is about... unless someone made some comments about how unfair I am somewhere earlier in this thread?

maybe you should retrieve it and have a read, cos it was quite obviously your usual sunday/monday coming-down paranoid aggressive overreaction

I have no wish to rake over old wounds actually, and I am surprised at your prediliction for doing so. I find it quite insulting that you describe something like that as 'my usual'... If anything it was just an early morning thing... when my brain is still on autopilot However, I hope you are not implying by 'come-down' that it was the result of a drug induced neurochemical imbalance? I very rarely take drugs, and I'll have you know that all my neurochemical imbalances are my 100% natural state thanks very much

- kinda quite similar to darklight's post above.

Agreed, however

Or maybe that's not the instance you're talking about... not sure how selective your memory is.

That was the instance I was referring too... I can't recall any others off the top of my head but I am sure they exist. As a matter of fact on that particular occasion I think Darklight was in the same state as me, and we probably both quite enjoyed using each other as emotional punching bags for a while... but as we came to our senses we soon tired of it. (sorry if I am wrong there Darklight)

You're a hypocrite.

well they don't come any blunter than that do they As this is your opinion I will not attempt to defend myself. You are welcome to believe that. I assume everyone else will draw their own conclusions.

BTW, none of this excuses what darklight did here and I would have been happier with a more thorough apology.

well it actually quite upset me to see how a very new member was being treated for a crime that was no more than being ignorant. Now if we had an expert in all fields on here I assume all newbie questions would get answered by explosive rants about intellectual property. It also annoyed me that Darklight could seemingly get out of the mess by essentially saying "oh well, I'm a bitch what can you do" and laughing the whole thing off. Sure you or I could accept that, but this person was totally new to the board, and saying to them that if they knew her better they'd understand becomes particularly futile when you realise that *most* people when confronted by an attack like that after asking a simple question on a board that should be populated by a group of open, good natured people is *not* conducive to having them stick around to actually *get* to know her better.

I publically apologise for the length of that sentence.

But hey, I remember that some people used to criticise me for being too involved in the politics and running of this forum....

Torsten, no-one criticises you as much as you think they do. I think you are far too sensitive. You are doing a fantastic job. An incredibly and pioneering job. There is simply no reason to be as insecure about things as you seem to be sometimes.

I have nothing to apologise for.

Not now that you have publically stated that you'd have preferred her apology to be more thorough, no.

Mods make mistakes too.

Agreed. In fact a mod on my board made the mistake of deleting a thread in which you were personally and also by innuendo attacked by mulga (an attack that was further fuelled by Darklight funnily enough heheh maybe we need to get her one of those cow bells (hehe j/k DL )

before I backed it up

Darklight is not a mod in this forum anyway and it is up to adrian to work out the consequences of this issue.

I can't see how that is relevant. She is still a mod, and should be setting an example. Flaming a brand new board member is NOT very mod-like behaviour...

For you to make demands of apologies is once again hypocritical.

I am not demanding them for myself, I can take that kind of thing (in fact if it had been me it wouldn't have mattered nearly so much). I just feel that it is necessary if you don't want people to get the wrong impression of this board. Australian hospitality indeed.

Where are my promised apologies?? And you are not only a mod, but an administrator of a forum.

what promised apologies Torsten? We have come to blows less times than could be considered 'bugger all'. The times I have criticised you my statements would have been considered moderate by everyone but yourself, and hence you are the only one that needs to be apologised to. I am not on some vendetta against you. I like you, and I like what you are doing and you know that damn well. I just don't see why we must go through the charade of public ego massaging - it just seems so unnessesary. If I feel I need to say something in public then I will say it. But lets put it to the vote. Who thinks that the thread that Torsten chose to use as an example of my hipocracy looks like it is screaming out to be apologised for? I am not an unfair person. I do not conspire against people. I do not use words incincerely, yet I do sometimes use them hurridly. Given your dissatisfaction with anything I say in private you must feel that it is the public perception of you that might suffer if people criticise you. I think that that is doing an injustice to just how much respect and admiration you actually command. people do not suddenly stop liking someone on the strength of one post, or one persons comments on one aspect of something they say. We are all more mature than that. It takes more than this to damage people Torsten, and you have to realise that.

I think it is clear that we are all human and that we all snap or have irrational thoughts at times. (Some women moreso than others, eh DL )

It's biochemical and often we can't help it. But we still have to take responsiblity for it.

well put.

So apologies are a nice thing. But an apology that needs to be demanded isn't worth much. Apologies need to be volunteered.

does this mean that my spontaneous, private apologised are worth much more than demanded public ones? If so you should not be critisising, but praising me for taking the initiative to make sure I didn't hurt your feelings with that post (and the occasional other one). I have even apologised for other peoples posts about you and asked if you'd like me to do anything about them.

Seems to me that DL and spunwhirllin have it pretty well worked out and I don't think selfrighteous & hypocritical commentary will achieve anything at this stage other than maybe publicising your own grievances.

What grievences? If you are referring to the fact that after that recent shitfight between Darklight and Mulga on my board, after which you emailed me to tell me you would no longer be posting there, then you are wrong. As I said in my reply, I would be sorry to lose you but if that was your decision then so be it. I actually mean the things I say Torsten. I do not carry around grudges and attack people for them later.

If you are referring to anything else that you have aggrieved me over then please tell me so I can put your fears to rest. I have no grievences.

Human behaviour and human relationships are complex. The world is not out to get you Torsten. How many times to I need to state that I have nothing against you? you cannot just assume that the second someone says something that might possibly maybe be an attack that they have suddenly done a full about-turn on their attitude towards you. It just doesn't work like that.

On the contrary, this post of yours is quite full of personal attacks on me - and I had believed us to be friends. Perhaps you have been walking around assuming that I am only feining friendship for some reason? no - life is to short to associate with people you do not like. It is also too short to pretend to be what you are not.

I have no grievences. I have no negative feelings towards you Torsten (despite this post, which must be the result of a short-term hormonal imbalance - that or he *is* carrying around some unexpressed grievances), I have no negative feelings towards you Darklight. I like both of you as people.

I do have a problem however with the lack of hospitality that was shown to a new member of this board by one of the boards moderators. I do have a problem with an unprovoked attack that did nothing for the credibility of this board or of the people running it in the eyes of anyone who would happen to read it. If any moderator had responded like that I would have posted the same thing - you just don't go around making people feel unwelcome like that, nor throwing about personal criticism and making them feel unwelcome. If it had been another member but not a mod, I would also have criticised it, though in far less strong terms. I probably would have just told them to chill.

Why is it Torsten that you can't seem to see the higher dynamics at work here? That if, in this virtual environment, someone is a 'mod' then they should behave like one? Yes they can be excused for not behaving one, yes they can be excused for being unreasonable or unjust. Yes they can be excused for having a bad day. But how can they be excused for being a bitch if their excuse is 'I am a bitch, deal with it?' Sometimes that is just not appropriate.

If this had not been a brand new member, I might even add a member who is from overseas, then it just wouldn't have mattered, and yes we all would have accepted it as Darklight being darklight, and also airing some very real and reasonable grievances. However when you read the original post it is abundantly clear that what she read into it was just not there. She, a moderator on this board, treated a new member from overseas as a common theif, when all they really wanted was to help save an endangered plant. That is what she should have apologised for. Not as Darklight, but as a moderator and as an example to everyone. And I don't think it was right for everyone to just accept it when she said 'oh silly me what a bitch I've been' [paraphrase]. Unless of course you want this board to gain a reputation for being a place where you can get your head bitten off for daring to ask us for help. Or even for Australians in general to get that reputation. And if you were going to stand by and let people think that about your board and our country, then I sure as hell wasn't.

Thankyou for listening.

 

---

[Rev]

Ok ill stick to my part of this thread, thems steep edges.

Re ideas - i guess some of them could be translated to the east but i was keeping them for myself for the moment

The ones im talking about have special relevance to WA - domestic mainly but some with export potential.

Why to give them away? cos i cant do them and they need to be done. Some i feel are too important to be left alone - the emerging scene in WA needs certain things that can only realistically be procured locally

I mean WA (except the far far far north) has no Cubes, few subs and then in a highly policed area, No amanitas, no rue, no rainforest, very little in the way of known materials, not like the east...but...

it does have huge potential for other plants and more can grow here than currently do

The local populace will avidly consume more (legal) recreationals and concoctions than are currently offerred (sweet FA) and the plant market is significant too- specially given quarantine hassles with whole plants

For example Catha might be common but ive never seen it in nurseries - why not? seed is free and its not only highly ornamantal but it is also a 'special interest' plant. I mean you cant build an empire on it but its a profitable hobby.

Find out where the Ethiopian, Kenyan and Somali population shop/hang out and theyd sell like hotcakes.

[Darklight]

>For such responses to come from someone who is a moderator of this board and who thus should be setting a good example is just completely beyond belief.

Um- in case you hadn't noticed- mods and admin bods are human too. We fuck up, we apologise. I hope the moderators on your forum don't suffer the consequences of your demands for superhuman perfection- it would be a strange request even ignoring the circumstances

>Oh and I just remembered... the one time that I have had the biggest shit fight I have ever had on a board it was with Darklight. Hmmm food for thought.

Probably not the best example you could supply- it took you all day to goad me and you worked quite hard for it: I have the original unedited posts. You later admitted you made an ass of yourself and had made inaccurate and unchecked statements and unfair inferences of your own before I bit

The recent shitfight you referred to on EA forums was sparked by the umpteenth post from a 'senior' member there extensively slandering the work and personality of a very good friend of mine. It took months of those innuendos and abuses being allowed to roam free range- by you as administrator of that forum -before I bit there too- and I stand by my position on that particular issue. I don't recall apologies being publicly requested by you on that members behaviour- ever. So why are you demanding the administrator here comply with your sudden change of ethics?

>I have no wish to rake over old wounds actually

So your mention of the recent shitfight over at EA is directed exactly where then? And your attempt at reigniting a concluded debate here between another member and myself is to what purpose? Do you have a use-by date on your posts? Perhaps it should be in your sig file

>I don't care what you say to justify your reaction,

Your concern touches me.

Perhaps once you have been in a commercial environment for a few years you will better understand that ppl can indeed be unscrupulous when they want something from you. There have been two attempts to remove data from this lab, the first successful ( never again! ) and you'd be surprised just how many ppl have requested that I break agreements with clients to supply them with stolen genetic material for free- on the grounds they felt they deserved it. Some of those ppl were involved in the EB field- such breaches of trust are something I hope you remain distanced from. The ability to consume and understand aspects of plant/ human interaction in no way confers sainthood or other spiritual perfection on anyone, and I am no longer surprised by the capacity of the human race for its expressions of resourcefulness.

Nor did I declare spunwhirlin to be a thief- they're your words eccles. I did say that complying with such a request could leave me open to theft, which is a very different kettle of fish indeed. When the position was clarified I understood that duplicity was *not* spunwhirlin's intent. Originally I went over the top, he abused me, we were both wrong in the end and then sorted it out no worries. You seem to be focussing on the conflict rather than the broader picture. What is, or was obvious in this thread until you reignited it is the ability of conflict to be resolved no matter the temperature of the flame.

>It was far *far* ruder and more offensive than anything he said,

It certainly was, and I freely admitted it.

> if you are going to project your own fears onto honest people...

*cough*

> then you should not be held up as an example of how to behave on this board by holding a position as moderator.

Moderator is an administrative position only and that position should never, IMO, imply that the incumbent is in any way superior to anyone else on the boards. On that path lies danger, or deep weirdness at the very least

I blew it and I copped it and apologised, got a clip across the ears from a few old mates anyhow. Big deal, I'm happy to wear it. It's part of being responsible for your actions. I wouldn't be the only person here who has blown it- on more than one occasion you have too. Several of our longer term forum members have stuffed up badly over the years and remain on really happy terms with both me and other forum members ( CS even signed up again- yay! ) and more ppl will stuff up again in the future. Which proves precisely nothing more than the fact that ppl are as human here as anywhere

Personally I'd rather everyone on the forum members know that stuffups are almost always recoverable, rather than having them disappear and losing their contribution when the embarrassment factor reaches overload. We all have to come to terms with the inevitable humanity of our mistakes. If they're visibly fixed as easily and fervently as they're made I don't see the problem.

I also believe that the best apologies are sincere rather than overtly florid, offering active recompense rather than lengthy insincere grovelling-YMMV. If spunwhirlin' thinks my apology to him/ her requires some clarification or extension then they're well entitled to make advances in that regard either here or by mail. If Adrian wants more then I'm sure he'll ask for it. So given your extensive if belated commentary your point is exactly what? That as administrator of another forum you won't tolerate abuse here even if it reigned unchecked until very recently on your own? History repeats itself- the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce

I'm so terribly relieved that Torstens clarification on my apology means he now meets your standards of approval on his behaviour. On one hand you criticised him for a lack of involvement in an area where he has given a moderator juristiction, demanding an explanation of his behaviour to *your* satisfaction. Then you criticise him for being too sensitive to criticism. Then you slap him round for several pages claiming he doesn't understand you when overall the impression you have given us for the last dozen or so pages is far more hysterical and convoluted than anything anyone else has managed to contribute so far- which tells its own story. Sheesh. Its hard to determine what it is you're demanding- the text and subtext are most inconsistent and the messages you give overall are very mixed

[eccles]

I honestly don't have the energy for this.

Reading your post made me feel very penitent for my attitude, as it underlined that you are a truely good person, with pure motives, however after that there was a lot of personal abuse and innuendo that I was not sure what to make of.

However I will follow my initial instinct and apologise for my post. (and for the record I posted it after only having read up to the end of your long post on intellectual property). I was shocked at the time, and didn't think it sent out a very good message. I don't apologise for finding your attitude offensive, but I do apologise for reigniting the flame once it had died down. And also for the hypocrisy inherent in my post.

Nevertheless the fact remains that this board is replete with requests for help and tips for propogating plants and plant material, and you are the first person to have ever bitten someones head off because of vested commercial interests in keeping such cultivation information secret.

As for all of your statements that suggest this somehow has something to do with the fact that I am the admin of another forum, I don't exactly understand what you mean by it all. Why should that prevent me from being allowed to express my opinions as a member of this one, without being accused of some kind of superiority complex? Everyone else has their own opinion, why can't I?I have never allowed personal abuse to rein on my board. You may not have noticed, but around 98% of the accusations/innuendo mulga levels at torsten is actually 100% rooted in reality and is factual. Should I censor someone for expressing their opinion when it is based in fact? It was only when you and he got into that shit fight that things got out of hand. Principly because it didn't seem that there was resolution on the horizon - which I had previously hoped for.

Either way, this is all getting too complex, and the abuse and arguments you and Torsten are dragging up too far removed from the topic of this thread for me to even believe what I am hearing. If you both hate me so much just come out and tell me and I will resign from this forum.

[eccles]

oh, and I guess I have to address this...

>I have no wish to rake over old wounds actually

So your mention of the recent shitfight over at EA is directed exactly where then? And your attempt at reigniting a concluded debate here between another member and myself is to what purpose? Do you have a use-by date on your posts? Perhaps it should be in your sig file

 

The difference is that I had believed the situation Torsten brought up to have been well and truly resolved, also the one between you and myself. That cat-fight between you and mulga was never resolved - the thread was simply deleted.

That is the difference as I see it. Perhaps I should have said old HEALED wounds - but I thought that healing was implicit in old. Well it is actually - that's what the phrase means - sorry if you had not heard it before.

The issue between you, torsten, mulga and various adherents thereto is still a well and truly open wound. With nothing constructive coming from either side - just pus, blood and more pus. Although to mulgas credit he doesn't actually show complete and utter surprise that the other side has something against him - and treat their statements as unfounded slander.