Mt Buffalo / Acacia phlebophylla

[Torsten]

I've beend reading this for years, but the time has finally come. There are bushfires raging around Mt Buffalo, the home of the rare and endangered Acacia phlebophylla. After 4 years of drought the seed store of fresh seed would be dramatically low and some preliminary experiments have shown this species to possibly have seed of a short viability. A fire would kill the parent plants which have seed developing right now. Regeneration from seed store may not be as prolific as would be expected from other acacias. In fact, in addition to all the other stresses this species suffers from, this may well be the last straw.

One positive aspect may be that many of the remaining plants are on bare granite slopes with little or no fuel for the fire. The roots of this species are very tough and if there is some rain soon may even regenerate from a fire.

Lets hope that at least some patches of this species survive.

[spikey]

just wanted to know torsten if there is anything i ( a man who doesn't live in australia and doesn't have tons of money)

might do to help you save this endangered species togther with some other plants you are helping

[Darklight]

Damn, fingers crossed, efforts redoubled, its a goddamn mystery this plant, a real teaser. Like I've been saying for years we get this one in TC and we'll know a hell of a lot more about plants generally. I wish it well

[Ed Dunkel]

Damn, Never realised the fires where near Mt Buffalo!!!!

Are the folks of Parks Victoria at all implementing some sort of regeneration program. Have they got seedlings propagated for planting out in such an event?

How is this sort of stuff managed anyway?

I hope it all goes well and there is minimal chance (or damage). It wuld be a shame to see it all go.

E D

[Torsten]

spikey, sadly there is nothing you can do at this stage. I believe I have finally found the 'magic ingredient' that the plant needs to get past 3 years of age and thus to seeding age. I will need a bit more time to confirm this and don't want to say what it is just yet so as not to spread false hope. Someone donated some seed to me a few weeks ago, so we will try our hardest to make these seedlings reach maturity.

Originally posted by Ed Dunkel:

Damn, Never realised the fires where near Mt Buffalo!!!!

I am having trouble confirming this, but one news report said that Mt Buffalo had to be closed due to fires. Also, apparently many hectares of plantation timber in that area went up in smoke yesterday. As to which side of the mountain and which areas, I have no idea yet.

Are the folks of Parks Victoria at all implementing some sort of regeneration program. Have they got seedlings propagated for planting out in such an event?

No, I don't think so. This species was only recently recognised as threatened (they are not very quick). Also there is a general feelign that acacias are not threatened by fire as the fire causes regeneration from seed stores. Darklights TC experiments indicated that there is some serious viability problem with 3 year old seed. When I conveyed this info to David C, he very suddenly changed his mind on the stability of this species. ie, if the seedstore is really compromised by age, then the ability to regenerate well is not there at the moment.

How is this sort of stuff managed anyway?

It isn't. Not enough $$$. There are plants shipped to all botanic gardens, but they didn't survive in most of them.

I hope it all goes well and there is minimal chance (or damage). It wuld be a shame to see it all go.

I think there are enough interested and skilled people on the case for this one. There are probably many other species up there that are just as endangered.....

[planthelper]

hi,

i think the other way round...

its growing only there because the

rocksurface protected it since jonks

from fires.

in short rocks dont burn.

rocky ground is very often sacred...

[spunwhirllin]

hi,

damn,thats a real bummer about the acacias.

ive got two a. phlebophylla growin right now.

ive been caring for em for about two years now,and ive been stressed out the whole time.

knowing that they are in fact an endangered species,and supposedly really rare in cultivation growing this plant is a stressful endeavor indeed.

i keep hearing that theres a problem with them living longer than a few years in cultivation,anyone know why?

if this is true than i'm gonna be in trouble soon i suppose.

can anyone offer any advice on helping me help the trees reach maturity?

for the first year they were grown under flouros.

this last summer was the first time they were put out,and they exploded with growth,some single leaves were 7 in. long and 4in. wide.

i brought them in when the temps started cooling,placed back under flouros,and now there branching like mad.

they seem strong and are actively growing.

i use well drained soil and lots of crushed granite chips,the root ball grows around a hice big chunk of granite i put in the pot.

i also placed an a. maidenni tree in the pot with them,hoping to introduce rhizobium.

im hoping to start to try tissue culture with these guys,

any advice?

thanx,

spunwhirllin

[Darklight]

Originally posted by spunwhirllin:

im hoping to start to try tissue culture with these guys,any advice?

Good luck I've been trying five years with no success, they're the *only* thing that's completely eluded me all these years.

[spunwhirllin]

hi darklight,

just wondering if you can can tell me a few methods and/or medias you've used,so i dont have to cover the already attempted ones.

five years huh,have you givin up yet?

[Darklight]

Originally posted by spunwhirllin:

just wondering if you can can tell me a few methods and/or medias you've used,so i dont have to cover the already attempted ones.

Bit of a cheeky ask really, you having been listed on the forums how long? Good on ya...

Much of the work was done under a signed confidentiality & security agreement with Wandjina ( standard TC contract ) and I can't and won't release details without his approval. Perhaps you could approach him regarding this?

five years huh,have you givin up yet?

Not a chance. Every now and again we get a ray of hope, which is short lived, but we're improving results slowly.

Like I've said for years- once we get this right we'll understand a hell of a lot more about plant metabolism than we do now

[Torsten]

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/01/...1990214696.html

[Darklight]

More than 400 hectares has been destroyed by a fire at Mt Buffalo

Which 400 hectares I wonder- I've heard its not exactly a huge area. I could weep...

[Darklight]

Dear spunwhirlin'

I know we've only just met, but can I borrow your car, have all your stash ( and I do mean all ), a faithful copy of yr hard drive in case there's anything interesting I might want, and if your girlfriend's not doing anything this weekend...

Which is basically the equivalent question to that which you posed to me. I wasn't going to bite, but I'll do you that favour- it may help you in future transactions and your professional development

I run a professional micropropagation facility fulltime, and in all my years have never encountered such a rude request. Perhaps, if your first language isn't English ( as it isn't for much of the scientific community ) there is room for misunderstanding- other than that I have to presume you are completely clueless

I certainly don't object to data sharing. And I do mean sharing Its practiced often in the scientific community, and I have done it myself to both parties advantage. Data sharing, however, presumes some kind of mutual arrangement, rather than a 'just gimme what you got ' mentality you displayed so inelegantly

In the event that Torsten actually gave you permission to data share, I would additionally require proof of:

-your qualifications and skills in the field

-your access to a functional tissue culture facility ( which may well require a personal visit by me, expenses paid by you )

-a TC security and confidentiality contract signed by you, and the knowledge that you have the capacity to honour it

-a contractual arrangement regarding the distribution of successful genetic material- profit or nonprofit regardless

-and of course, an actual exchange of data

The nonexistence of any of the qualities listed above ( contract excepted ) is certainly not a major hurdle: I have no qualms about competition and have helped a couple of ppl set up their own facilities ( which is fun! ) However the one thing that cannot be spun from the blue is attitude, and the request couched by you in such terms displays an ugly handout mentality that all the laminar flow cabinets in the world couldn't compensate for. You can't train attitude, or sign a contract for it. Even if I weren't running this as a business, your request is still an unpleasant way to ask for anything. A more professional request would certainly not have rung near as many alarm bells

What do I get in return then? The knowledge that some stranger has my data unconditionally, which could well be spread around by you or your representatives= you would have the ability to steal the credit for my work so far. The notion that you may actually be able to competently offer a solution to the A. phlebophylla dilemma is effectively countered by your attitood: it more looks like you're asking me to send rare genetic material to its certain doom. Prove me wrong and I'll happily change my mind and even apologise

You may not have had all, or even any of these things in mind- data theft, gene theft, ( just b/c I run this program as a non-profit thing doesn't mean I assume you will ), plagarism- but to any professional operator that is exactly what compliance with your dodgy request would leave them open to.

[spunwhirllin]

darklight,

o.k.,fisrtly,

i'm very new to tissue culture,and yes, also to this board.

i understand that my request was not the best way for me to approach the subject,for this i apologize.

but,i didnt request any info for the simple fact that i might be able to profit from such a project,profits mean shit to me,its about the plants,and nothing more.

im constantly losing money due to plants,but thats o.k.,plants are life,money is nothing.

you didnt have to bring up the fact that you had tried TC,i assumed you were trying to be helpful,hence i requested some info,and what a mistake that was.

damn,you sure make a whole alot of something out of nothing.

well,good luck darklight.

may the power and light of profits out shine all else.

''what do you get in return?''

yea,thats the spirit.

------------------

[spunwhirllin]

i was trying to be polite in my previous post,but after re-reading your remarks to me,i have to say,bleep off,arrogant bleep.

damn,what a self-righteous attitude you have.

i apologize to everyone else for the use of bleeps,though justified.

o.k.,i regress,darnit im weak.

[This message has been edited by spunwhirllin (edited 16 January 2003).]

[Torsten]

spunwhirllin - there is no profit motive for this species. In fact, even if we do get to the final result at some stage, it is unlikely to be a commercially workable one (we would use profits to establish wild stands) . If it makes any money at all, then this will be a drop in the ocean in comparison to what it has cost so far (do you have any idea of the cost involved to keep a species in culture for 5 years??). Considering that even simple tissue culture protocols cost tens of thousands of dollars to develop (which you should be aware of if you're skilled in that field), it is simply ridiculous to ask a researcher for what they have done up to a certain point without offering something in return (and no, I don't mean money). The issue here is not whether we make a profit (we know we won't on this species), but the fact that whoever works this out CAN patent the process and CAN make a profit. This kinda thing happens every day n this industry. What we want to achieve with Wandjina is to develop the protocol and then make it available publically by publishing it. That way it cannot be patented by anyone else and is available for the good of the species and the benefit of humanity forever.

Darklight and I get weekly requests that sound something like: "I want to buy a tube of 'x' (insert any TC species here) and make sure to send the TC protocols along with it". Basically people have some expectation that we should provide our hard work for free so that they can make a profit without doing any reearch. It annoys us.

I think your initial comments were naive, but probably well meant. Your later comments are against the forum rules, so please edit them immediately and find a different way to express yourself. They also focus around a theme that is simply not there and if you knew either of us, or had been around here a bit longer, you would know in what spirit to take darklight's post.

Darklight - did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning??

[Darklight]

Originally posted by Torsten:

it is simply ridiculous to ask a researcher for what they have done up to a certain point without offering something in return (and no, I don't mean money).

Me either. The more usual way to offer is " If you would like to share X I have some spare Y/ don't have anything to swap ATM as I am starting etc " In no way would I ever assume that the intentions of someone wanting me to just hand over five years of work are benign

but the fact that whoever works this out CAN patent the process and CAN make a profit. This kinda thing happens every day in this industry.

And not just on this species: it happens everywhere, other workplaces abound with stories about ppl giving their data away and then it being used without credit, the second person scoring a better job later on the strength of 'excellent research'.

As we're running phlebophylla on a non-profit basis, the idea that someone else might grab it and sell it elsewhere is abhorrent, hence the caution

Darklight and I get weekly requests that sound something like: "I want to buy a tube of 'x' (insert any TC species here) and make sure to send the TC protocols along with it". Basically people have some expectation that we should provide our hard work for free so that they can make a profit without doing any reearch. It annoys us.

From other TC labs too, they're just fishing but it gives one the shits. Industrial espionage is an industry standard- in the first week of a particular new lab opening I was offered stolen genetic material by five separate ppl. Sorry, not interested, and I don't like thieves anyhow

i'm very new to tissue culture,and yes, also to this board. i understand that my request was not the best way for me to approach the subject,for this i apologize.

Apology accepted. Just b/c you are new to TC certainly does not mean that you have no chance with a new species no-one else has done before ( but then you prolly know that ) I got my first species formula out while working out of my bathroom.

As you have still not offered to do anything other than abuse me the chances of me sharing data are absolutely nil, but I do wish you the best of luck and if you get it out first you can invite me to the launch and gloat/ sell it to Novartis/ do anything you damn well like.

You will prolly find working on this species frustrating, but very very instructive and it is my fervent hope that should you be successful, you publish your results so as to ensure continuation of this spp for the future

you didnt have to bring up the fact that you had tried TC

Would have been weird if I hadn't. Scores of ppl here know I am working on it and I get enquiries after its health at least weekly

we would use profits to establish wild stands

And to conduct studies to find out what is endangering it in its original habitat ( apart from fire ) Anyhone have anynews on the Mt Buffalo fires??? And to supply genetic material to NPWS if they want it. And... and... and... so much work to do

Darklight - did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning??

And again this morning Bike gets fixed today

[This message has been edited by Darklight (edited 14 January 2003).]

[spunwhirllin]

my reactions are justified,i will not back down and delete anything.

its unfortunate that darklite had to go on insulting me that way,a simple "NO" would have sufficed.

anyway,my short stay here was nice.

peacenplants

[Darklight]

ts unfortunate that darklite had to go on insulting me that way

You asked a very rude question, you got a rude answer, its a bit late to fret about your tanty now, hey

anyway,my short stay here was nice

Was it? Bye

[Guest reville]

Sorry Darklight - i understand the background circumstances but im in agreement with spunwhirllin

A simple no would have sufficed as in the original response

I think the rude response you got was deserved and if someone had responded to my question like you did i would have said the same - as im sure you would have

Not impressed

I apologise spunwhirllin for this incident, its very much out of character for these forums. I hope you rethink hanging around especially if you have genuine interest in this one and as you already have experience with the Mt buffalo wattle.

Congrats on doing so well with it so far, i hope your luck continues

[planthelper]

oh, darklight on the ground, let me offload

aswell...

darklight, do you remember daniels party?

"normaly" if a guitarist hands over his instrument to an other, they state the type of how its tuned..

hmm...

you tryed to make me look stupid in front of all, by not telling me.

so i just believe to know what is wrong with some of your

propagation work but

pff...

i want tell you.

[inpsyght]

on a bit of a tangent, i was at confest over the new year period and there was two workshops held(amongst many)- one on ayahuasca and another on dmt. i got to the ayahuasca one and found that a guy i recogonised from the ringwood(melb.) ethnomeet was running it. He and another guy(who posts on these forums-genrally long rambles) were doing some group sessions with some brews but... announced that they were using leaves from phlebophylla. most of the people doing the workshop weren't full plant heads, more just interested and thus didn't get the implications. this really pissed me off,

taking material from an endangered species is not on

-no matter how important the 'work' is. and then to top it off casually announcing it to people who are there to learn about it is not promoting good info. isnt part of the reason it was pushed into endangered status is that people were doing unsustainable harvests. so now a group of people will walk away thinking it ok to go and find then harvest these extremely rare trees.

enough ranting but if you know anyone who is using this source then give em a good kik to the head.

[Jack]

This wasnt Julian was it?

[Guest reville]

Planthelper - whatever might be said of DL's behaviour outside a lab i can attest that inside it she is totally on the ball.

I have nothing but admiration for her proffesional work and achievements and ive learnt a lot from her.She certainly has taken her work from scratch in a field where every single variety of each species requires a large amount of work to run through all the variables to find a formula that works - and there is no guarantee of success - in the meantime if youre working for yourself then youre not getting paid to do all this, so theres a lot of lean times like in any self employed trade.

So the work you do and your results signify a lot of anguish and lost income - something you hope you can recoup something from at a later date by finding success or selling/ trading intellectual property

You just need to lighten up a bit hey DL

[planthelper]

ok rev. i know you are her friend.

i agree with inpsyght as reference i tell you the story of the rare kenilworth toad nsw(latin name forgotten)

it was discovered to (if memory serves me well) breed her babys in the stomach.

a rare and to this moment not known substance

made this possible by alternating the gastro

acid juices.

than all fgn wa***rs of the pharmacompanys

went ther stealing the toads.

i think its classified exctinct now- only few years after discovery.

lets collect money for building a fence arround

mt. buffalo...lol

tragedy plus time equals comedy.

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